View Full Version : BE GT brake upgrade
badbasser98
02-11-2007, 07:47 PM
I just found out what I am getting for a tax return this year, and was pleasantly surprised. Just have a question for those of you that know about brake upgrades/swaps.
My GT basically has WRX sized rotors up front, and I need/want to replace everything including calipers very soon. My question is, what would be good to upgrade to for the fronts as well as the rears and still maintain good brake balance while increasing braking ability and not breaking the bank too bad.
At one point I was thinking of moving to 4pot fronts and BL GT rears. Has anyone done this, or maybe know someone who has? I guess I want some reasurance that this setup would work alright, or if I might be able to get some STi Brembos for slightly more cash.
Thanks,
-BB98
rougeben83
02-11-2007, 10:31 PM
4pots front bolt up just fine. You reuse your rotors. You can't use the stock snowflake GT rims though; 17" rim or RS rims will fit over them.
Rear GT brakes are the same size as the H6 rotors but vented; they don't really help since a majority of your braking (like 60-70 percent) is done by the front brakes. Otherwise, get the calipers and brackets and rotors.
badbasser98
02-12-2007, 09:37 AM
I don't even have my stock wheels anymore. I sold them to a WRX owner for track use. I have stock 05 LGT wheels and some split 5 spoke 16" wheels. I beleive the 4-pots clear the LGT wheels, but I'm not sure that they will clear my 16's... I guess I'll have to check their offset.
rougeben83
02-12-2007, 09:21 PM
Yeah, I've been trying to find out what 16" aftermarket rims will clear 4pots. There doesn't seem to be a lot of info about what can and what can't.
It basically boils down to how much the inside face of the rim is cleared out because the 4 pot calipers stick out more than the regular 2 piston calipers.
StatGSR
02-12-2007, 09:28 PM
what kinda of brake pads are u using or use to? so many people underestamate what a good brake pad can do to a car. seriously, i could make my teg stop like crazy with single piston calipers, 11inch rotors, and the proper pads.
idk, it just seems so many suby people in general jump on the 4 pot bandwagon when the fact is they havnt even come close to touching the limits of thier orginal set up.
Wiscon_Mark
02-12-2007, 10:16 PM
idk, it just seems so many suby people in general jump on the 4 pot bandwagon when the fact is they havnt even come close to touching the limits of thier orginal set up.
mmm, so many of them talk about it, but few do because of rim limitations.
I think the most common Legacy upgrade is the BE "H6" upgrade with good pads.
rougeben83
02-12-2007, 11:29 PM
Pads have a lot to do with it, but when you want more pedal feel and modulation, you step up to the 4 pots. I don't know; I have LGT front brakes on the shelf right now (foot wide rotors with big ol' dual pistons) that I've been contemplating on selling because I want to keep 16" rims for rallycross and winter use.
I have EBC Greenstuff pads w/ that blue brake fluid that I forgot the name of ,on the Legacy right now, they're ok; need to warm them up though before they start to bite, especially now with the low temps. (I'd hate to think how the Redstuff pads are like though). The pads never did have the same kind of initial bite that I was looking for; I may get some more aggressive pads, like Hawks or Carbotechs, as a stop gap before I move up.
All of this is in preperation for turbocharging the car, which I wish I can do soon if not for pesky med school :wink: .
Huffer
02-12-2007, 11:29 PM
I have a friend who runs a 300+hp WRX wagon, and uses Hawk HPS pads, stock rotors, stainless brake lines and Super Blue brake fluid.
It hauls down pretty nice. ;)
Don't underestimate upgrading the smaller components.
You wouldn't need 4 pot brakes if your pads and accessories were up to par, likewise the rubber you roll on.
ten80
02-13-2007, 12:19 AM
I did goodridge stainless lines and ATE super blue fluid on my 00 BE, along with the WRX front brake upgrade and I must say that braking is quite nice. It's even better than it was on my 03 wrx. 4-pots won't give you much more power, if anything, since they have the same size rotor and marginally larger pads. However, they will give you high fade resistance and I've heard that the pedal feel is nice. I can say from experience that good brake pads, stainless lines, and a fresh bleed with good fluid will literally double the bite of your brakes without eating all your cash. An nice set of Brembo blank-faced rotors can be had for $180ish (front and rear) and will add to fade and warp resistance.
Unless you want "bling bling" factor, don't worry about upgrading rear calipers. the 11.4" rear rotors really go a great job and there is no need for vented unless you tow heavy loads or drive on the track.
the 06 4-pots don't have raised logos and will definitely fit under forester XT 16" wheels and perhaps the split-spoke, 02-04 WRX wheels, although I've not seen anyone test this combo. previous 4-pots have raised logos and require older impreza 16x7" wheels or similar aftermarket wheels.
Wiscon_Mark
02-13-2007, 01:58 AM
Ben - ditch the greenstuffs for something else like Hawk HPS pads and you'll change your tune on pads.
badbasser98
02-13-2007, 08:58 AM
Yes, the Hawk HPS pads are great, they are what I am running right now. The initial bite is great in hot and cold weather, the only time is not that good is when the pads and rotors are wet, not damp, I mean dripping wet like driving in a heavy downpour. It grabs rather quickly after the heat gets in them though. Just gives you a weird feeling the first couple times it happens...
I guess I was just in the mindset that if something needs to be replaced, upgrade at the same time. I like the idea of the new LGT setup all the way around and already have the wheels to clear them. I guess I'll look into price differences and see how that sways the decision.
rougeben83
02-13-2007, 12:37 PM
LGT fronts are usually $350-$450, the rears though, are a little more rare so the prices tend to fluctuate.
More LGT guys tend to go and upgrade their front brakes for bling than change out the rears.
scottzg
02-14-2007, 01:07 AM
Sure its not as good when its wet- the brake has to be dried before it can stop effectively.
why do you need new calipers and all that jazz? A little grease on the slider pins, a street/track pad and you're ready to rock.
Usually any brake swap increases stopping distance vs. stock stuff.
braking under corner entry is best improved by stiffening the front springs and struts, and overall stopping power by moving to a larger stickier tire.
cheers!
ten80
02-14-2007, 08:08 AM
Usually any brake swap increases stopping distance vs. stock stuff.
braking under corner entry is best improved by stiffening the front springs and struts, and overall stopping power by moving to a larger stickier tire.
hrmmm, I must disagree with the first statement. Unless you are doing something terribly wrong, larger brakes will not increase stopping distance. They will allow you to reach the threshold of your tire's traction sooner and as long as you don't lock up the brakes, you will stop faster. Don't make me bust out my physics text book :lol:. I have direct experience, having upgraded the brakes on my legacy and Impreza, and the benefits of upgraded brakes are well documented. You will especially see improvements in stopping distance when your brakes are very hot or you are stopping from highway speeds.
I definitely agree with the second statement. Tires are often overlooked, as are springs. Stiffer springs also reduce the weight transfer to the front of the car, keeping more weight over the rear brakes and improving their effectiveness, albeit potentially moving the brake balance rearwards depending on spring rates.
badbasser98
02-14-2007, 08:33 AM
My stock hardware is badly corroded and am starting to experience some problems because of it. By the way it has been going so far, it looks like its only the beginning. I need all new caliper brackets and related hardware, and I figured if I am going to be replacing that much, I might as well do it all.
rougeben83
02-14-2007, 03:35 PM
ten80,
There has been documented proof that some aftermarket big brake kits do increase the stopping distance of a car. I think SportCompactCar did a couple of articles about this for different cars a while back.
I think the better way to put is that a WELL THOUGHTOUT brake upgrade, one that takes all factors of the brake system into account, will yield shorter stopping distances over stock.
This is the one of the reasons why when I'm looking for bigger brakes, I want to stick with the factory upgrades, since they designed the brake system, and their upgrades have a higher chance of meshing well with the rest of system when I run them.
Anyway, I am looking for better pads in the mean time. I already have LGT brakes in the parts bin, but I'm still weighing out whether to install them and loose 16" rims compatibility.
ten80
02-14-2007, 10:31 PM
I think we are on the same mind track. I was thinking of extremes, such ift if you put 8-pots on a car with rear drums, then rear brakes wouldn't do anything and brake distance would increase. I think that upgrades such as the H6 and 4-pots, even brembo front calipers with decent rear brakes do little harm other than changing brake balance.
I too though about ditching the 16"s to put on a set of brembos I have sitting around. I can't bring myself to do it, the roads here are crap after all the snow and 17" tires aren't cheap. 11.4" rotors front and rear with good pads and stainless lines are good enough for me anyways :)
scottzg
02-15-2007, 02:24 AM
, even brembo front calipers with decent rear brakes do little harm other than changing brake balance.
...which has a massive impact on stopping distance. They also will feel crappy if they're designed around a different sized master cyl.
Stiffer springs also reduce the weight transfer to the front of the car, keeping more weight over the rear brakes and improving their effectiveness, albeit potentially moving the brake balance rearwards depending on spring rates.
totally wrong. Springs have no effect on weight transfer, they just keep the car from eating all its suspension travel and keep the wheels from going as far to negative camber.
yeah, you can do a brake upgrade that is better than stock in every way, but if pads are all it takes to prevent real fade, why waste your time?
badbasser98
02-15-2007, 08:30 AM
yeah, you can do a brake upgrade that is better than stock in every way, but if pads are all it takes to prevent real fade, why waste your time?
Currently I have Hawk HPS pads and RacingBrake slotted rotors, in normal street driving (all I do), there is no brake fade to speak of. I tested this setup to see how much it would take for them to fade, under moderate load (70 MPH on a steep downhill and slowing to 30 MPH) and experienced no fade. I shouldn't come under those conditions (or equivalent) in street driving often.
My caliper brackets are corroded to the point that they rusted new slide pins in 4 months and one completely seized. All the brackets are close to doing the same, and the calipers are corroded just as bad. This is why I wanted to replace everything. To buy new OEM hardware is quite expensive, so I was asking if I should upgrade since I was spending the money anyway. If I could spend a few extra bucks and get a better system out of it, I would. This is all I was asking for opinions on, though all the other discussions has been informative.
Thanks,
-BB98
dodik
02-15-2007, 09:53 AM
what's wrong with green stuff i've been running them for 30k now still got half the life in them and car stops almost instantly on the stock brake system. :shock:
rougeben83
02-15-2007, 09:55 AM
yeah, you can do a brake upgrade that is better than stock in every way, but if pads are all it takes to prevent real fade, why waste your time?
Currently I have Hawk HPS pads and RacingBrake slotted rotors, in normal street driving (all I do), there is no brake fade to speak of. I tested this setup to see how much it would take for them to fade, under moderate load (70 MPH on a steep downhill and slowing to 30 MPH) and experienced no fade. I shouldn't come under those conditions (or equivalent) in street driving often.
My caliper brackets are corroded to the point that they rusted new slide pins in 4 months and one completely seized. All the brackets are close to doing the same, and the calipers are corroded just as bad. This is why I wanted to replace everything. To buy new OEM hardware is quite expensive, so I was asking if I should upgrade since I was spending the money anyway. If I could spend a few extra bucks and get a better system out of it, I would. This is all I was asking for opinions on, though all the other discussions has been informative.
Thanks,
-BB98
Well, since you already have WRX brakes in the front, the next choice would be the H6 rear rotor upgrade, which moves some brake bias to the rear.
It's the same as the BL upgrade but with non-vented rotors. Conversely though, it is much more common (having been made available since the BE cars) and cheaper to get.
ten80
02-15-2007, 10:14 AM
totally wrong. Springs have no effect on weight transfer, they just keep the car from eating all its suspension travel and keep the wheels from going as far to negative camber.
I dont' think I'm totally wrong. If you slam on the brakes and the nose dives, lifting the ass of the car, that is unweighting the rear end, reducing traction for the rear brakes. The way I see it is that body roll and front/rear end lift is a result of weight transfer and should affect the weight over each tire.
I think the master cylinder is only an issue if you have an older, single stage version. newer suby's have the double-stage booster and I've not heard of pedal feel or travel issues with big brakes
I do agree that not much needs to be done other than pads and fluid to reduce fade and increase bite.
Wiscon_Mark
02-15-2007, 10:35 AM
I don't think ten80 is totally wrong either - struts might do some for the weight transfer too, but springs definitely have an effect.
scottzg
02-15-2007, 12:15 PM
If you dont want to believe me, heres a quote from wikipedia.
The total sprung weight transfer is equal to the G-Force times the sprung weight times the sprung center of gravity height divided by the effective track width. The front sprung weight transfer is calculated by multiplying the roll couple percentage times the total sprung weight transfer. The rear is just the total minus the front transfer.
The sprung weight transfer only depends upon the cg height and track width. Raising roll centers or increasing roll stiffness will decrease body roll, but will not decrease the sprung weight transfer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_(vehicle)#Sprung_Weight_Transfer
have you guys seen josh's brake swap spreadsheet?
http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8 ... kemath.xls (http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8080/subaru/techinfo/brakemath.xls)
It's made for early legs, but you can figure out what influence any swap will have
I think the master cylinder is only an issue if you have an older, single stage version. newer suby's have the double-stage booster and I've not heard of pedal feel or travel issues with big brakes
the 2 stage booster makes the pedal soft initially and then stiffer further in the pedal travel. I swapped to a early impreza (93 non abs) one for a firmer pedal. The MC bore is sized to the volume of the brakes; if it's disproportionate, its gonna change how the brakes feel regardless of how many stages it has.
That said, i don't know how brake swap X will affect pedal feel or travel, just saying its worth looking up.
badbasser98
02-15-2007, 04:14 PM
Well, since you already have WRX brakes in the front, the next choice would be the H6 rear rotor upgrade, which moves some brake bias to the rear.
I do not have WRX brakes up front (unless the WRX uses the same caliper as the 02 GT's). My car only has the same sized rotors (11.5").
So I guess the next best questions are:
Do the 02 Legacy GT's have the same caliper as the WRX?
Would there be any benefit to swaping to the WRX caliper, and H6 rear setup?
Is the H6 booster bigger (better?) than the stock GT booster?
Thanks,
-BB98
Hello,
my BH9 (2.5 Naturally aspirated) came with 277mm Discs on the font with 2pot calipers.
I think the GT has different Brakes since the 294mm WRX discs won't fit under the calipers made for 277mm discs.
Now I'm using WRX calipers (fits perfectly to the Legacy but ensure that you use the brake line from the WRX, too!), WRX brake discs and the corresponding Ferodo DS Performance Brake pads.
I'm quite convinced although I haven't tested the Ferodos intensively up to now :wink:
Bottom line: switching to WRX calipers is a modification with a good price/performance ratio, at least for the Legacy with 277mm discs
-------------------
Off Topic: what about the rear axle? I'm using Ferodos there, too but on the original calipers and discs but I haven't recognized any difference
rougeben83
02-15-2007, 09:10 PM
Well, since you already have WRX brakes in the front, the next choice would be the H6 rear rotor upgrade, which moves some brake bias to the rear.
I do not have WRX brakes up front (unless the WRX uses the same caliper as the 02 GT's). My car only has the same sized rotors (11.5").
So I guess the next best questions are:
Do the 02 Legacy GT's have the same caliper as the WRX?
Would there be any benefit to swaping to the WRX caliper, and H6 rear setup?
Is the H6 booster bigger (better?) than the stock GT booster?
Thanks,
-BB98
You technically got the same brakes as the early 02 GT's. 03-04 BE's got the same calipers as 03+ WRX's IIRC, at least it did on my car. The pad size difference is so small it's kind of neglible IMO.
H6 booster is the BE brake booster. You already have it; actually, you probably have the H6 brakes already anyway. It should be the same size as your front rotors (roughly, 11.3 vs. 11.4 in the front). This is opposed to the 10.4" rotors that WRX's and older Legacy's got.
badbasser98
02-16-2007, 08:14 AM
Do the WRX's have the thin or wide slide tabs on the shoes? I think mine is a later production 2002. I know they switched the setup half way through the production.
Currently I am running 11.5" in the front and 11.3" in the rear (rear is not vented).
ten80
02-16-2007, 02:17 PM
early 2002 wrx used one style of pads and the late 2002-05 used the other. I calipers also differ slightly and require different brackets. As far as I know, 00-04 legacy rear calipers are the same as 02-05 wrx except for the larger brackets which allow the use of 290mm rotors.
rougeben83
02-16-2007, 07:43 PM
Your pad is either a 721 or a 929 (standard pad no. across all brands). The 03+ WRX's and later BE's got the 929 pad, the early 02 WRX's and early BE's got the 721 pad (I just had this search when I bought new front pads). You can go to Hawk's website and see a sketch of each pad and compare it to what you have right now.
You already have H6 rear brakes. You're fine. :wink: I kept thinking you had a BD for some reason.
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