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Thread: Hybrid Ej251/ej22e in the making

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    SLi nOOb dna's Avatar
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    Hybrid Ej251/ej22e in the making

    The Back brief

    Hello everyone,
    First of i would like to say hello to everyone here at SLI, I have been browsing the forums for a while but just joined up earlier today. Reason i am posting is that about a month ago, I bought my first legacy and planning on picking up another in a month or so whenever my other car gets sold. This is my first legacy however this is not my first Subaru, all together it is my 4th. ( 2 Imprezas, 1 Forester) The Legacy I bought was a deal I couldn't pass up. It's a 96 Legacy L wagon, AWD, Auto transmission and the bulletproof ej22e Although sadly this Wagon is just going to be cannibalized because it's a rust bucket and will not pass state inspection anymore. This is where I need some help. The Legacy I'm planning on buying is a 2003 Legacy wagon (ej251) 5spd supposedly with rod knock. I haven't gone to look at the car to try and troubleshoot but if it is coming from the rod bearings then I am going to do a hybrid motor turbo build using the 22 block and bolting it up to the 251 heads. I have been doing a lot of research these past few weeks and most of the hybrid setups I come across are the DOHC EJ25D heads bolted to the 22 block. After reading I don't think this is going to make a big difference but I am curious as to why not many people use the 251 platform.

    Without going into too much detail I will tell you I turbo'd my old 1997 Impreza (ej22e) and absolutely loved that car. Drove it for around 20 thousand miles on 5psi (vf11) never had any trouble until I crashed it one night with a couple of my friends. Luckily we all walked away without a scratch, cannot say the same for the car though.
    Up until this point I have been dying to do another turbo build, I just had to get some things in life lined out before continuing my Subaru passion. I'm excited to say I think I've reached that point again, now getting onto the project.

    I am on somewhat limited funding, however I have quite a few parts available. I have a td04 from my previous build. Some stock wrx headers/up pipe and I can make my supply/return lines at the shop I work at. I want to use as many parts from each vehicle as possible like the 5qt oil pan from the 251 then tap it for the return. I'm not sure if the 251 injectors will be enough to quench the turbo or not I'll have research more. I'm planning on getting a bigger 11mm wrx oil pump because the seal on the 22 is leaking and I think it could benefit from the extra oil flow. I've been considering notching my crossmember then reenforcing it, but I'm kinda leery of doing that because my daughter will be riding in it and I want it to be safe as possible. I also was leaning towards doing a front mount intercooler since there is no hood scoop and it will add to the sleeper look. Haven't really thought about engine management yet I have a friend who is a pretty good tuner that hopefully can help. I'm only planning on running the stock psi 8-10 of the td04. Anyways that's what I'm looking at right now I'm sure I left some things out, but I'll remember later on.

    Thanks ahead of time for any input and I look forward to working on this project with your help, SLI has always had a good reputation around the other Subaru fourms unlike NASIOC which has basically turned into a bash on noob's site.

    Oh yeah, sorry for the lengthy post haha

    Derek

    Picking up the Legacy

    Tear down of EJ251 and The EJ22E

    Wiring in heated seats/Engine assembly

    Fitting the turbo/installing the engine

    My intention of this build thread is to document the progress of my car build so most of my post are not the DIY type of post, however I am glad to help anyone who asks for it. Most things i have done on this car i am learning for myself, but I am fairly experienced with Subaru's so again any topic you need help with just ask and i will go into further detail.
    Last edited by dna; 02-16-2016 at 10:11 PM.

  2. #2
    t3h ub3r m3mber lord flashheart's Avatar
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    Ok so first things first one of the reasons why they 25D heads are so fantastic is for a couple reasons.
    1: the 25D heads are cheap
    2: subaru was being cheap with the engineering with the 25D and basically took the EJ20K and bored it out, stroked it, then changed the cams. What that means is the combustion chamber bore is set up for a 2.0 liter. So it leaves a long list of shortblocks that work with it.
    3: the ports might not look great but they have an awesome shortside radius. Where as the 251 has a terrible shortside.

    Now if i remember correctly the 251 has a 99.5mm combustion chamber. and it should be ok you might want to get a 22 head gasket and lay it over the head to make sure the valves arent going to contact the cylinder wall or something crazy like that.
    other than that it sounds like you got a good plan.
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    SLi Lurker nepbug's Avatar
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    That's a lot of good info. Even with the EJ251 shortside radius, they still flow better than the EJ25D though. IIRC the 251 heads are some of the best flowing subaru heads turbo or NA.

    DOHC does leave you more options with changing the cam profiles to suit.

    I'll follow this build closely as I am thinking of force feeding an EJ251/252, though I was considering a piston swap.

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    t3h ub3r m3mber lord flashheart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nepbug View Post
    That's a lot of good info. Even with the EJ251 shortside radius, they still flow better than the EJ25D though. IIRC the 251 heads are some of the best flowing subaru heads turbo or NA.

    DOHC does leave you more options with changing the cam profiles to suit.

    I'll follow this build closely as I am thinking of force feeding an EJ251/252, though I was considering a piston swap.
    Stock for stock yes. But if you unshroud the 25D the flow numbers are outstanding. at my old shop we had a bunch of junk heads and we went through a bunch of them developing the best unshrouding formula. The flow numbers on my heads after porting and unshrouding were seriously impressive. Our flowbench guy told me he thinks the 25D is every bit as good as the 257. They just suck from the factory.

    Granted this is what our flowbench guy told me, i dont that much about airflow dynamics.
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    SLi Lurker nepbug's Avatar
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    Yeah, the 251 heads are right up there with the 257 heads. According to this thread (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2034555) they actually flow a little better than the 257 heads.

    I was starting to casually look for an EJ22T to build, but now I think a pinned 251 with low compression pistons might be a good alternative to that. Eh, I have lots of time before I start that project anyways.

    So what are the numbers on the 251 heads and 22e block/headgasket so some numbers can be crunched and a compression ratio figured out. Or somebody has to already have figured that out somewhere.

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    SLi Lurker nepbug's Avatar
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    Oh, one other thing, coincidentally I was talking to Delta Camshaft today about a boosted EJ251 application and they recommend their 1500 grind cams up to 12 psi, after that you have to advance the exhaust with some variable cam gears (while still using the 1500 grinds).

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    t3h ub3r m3mber lord flashheart's Avatar
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    Yea i read that once opon a time.
    Something to keep in mind its not all about the peak lift numbers because the valve spends less time there then anywhere else. Unshrouding largest gains usually take place at low lift. Air flows best when it spins off the valve. And alot of combustion chambers interfere at low lift. The idea is that by making a perfect space around the valve you can get more flow started earlier. The air flow % (not CFM) increased the most in the first half of the open time.
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    t3h ub3r m3mber lord flashheart's Avatar
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    Again im not a airflow dynamisist. Just sharing what i know on the subject and my experience. I can say unshrouding makes an insane difference on the dyno. Mu car was pushing 302ftlbs@ 2300RPM at 10psi... not many 4 cylinder engines can say the same.
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    SLi nOOb dna's Avatar
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    That is awesome, flashheart is right about low lift air flow. Chevrolet uses a similar design with their vortec heads that create a swirl effect inside the combustion chamber. However my reasoning for using the 251 heads is simply because that is what is on the car currently and it is a fairly low budget build. I may keep the 251 block and throw some sti pistons into it with the 25d heads as a backup but that's way down the road haha.
    As for the delta cams that would be an awesome kicker to this motor build do you have any additional data on the cam grind?
    I'm not really sure on the compression ratio, it seems every thing I read a different ratio is thrown out there, but there are a lot of factors as well, hg thickness, which heads you will be using etc.
    Thanks for all of the good info, this next week will be spent cramming info haha and hopefully I will have sold my ol Toyota to buy the 2003 Legacy by then.

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    SLi nOOb dna's Avatar
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    Couple of quick questions
    1. What kind of engine management would you guys recommended for this build.
    2. Will the 251 injectors be enough to quinch the tdo4's thirst?
    3.Will my stock fuel pump supply enough fuel?

    On my previous build I ran emanage blue which did ok but I could never really find any good info to get the car dialed in perfect. I also used a rrfpr and had a walbro 255lph which looking back was overkill for the 5psi I ran.

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    Picture I took a while back of an ej22e gasket on an ej251 head. The combustion chamber is about 96mm wide judging by looks, and is perfect for an ej22 bore considering they are virtually identical to the ej222 head with the exception of the ej222 being single port.
    My 1997 Legacy L

    Fuelly

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    SLi nOOb dna's Avatar
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    Nice thanks for the picture, did you ever mount them up to the 22?

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    SLi Resident 86bratman's Avatar
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    No, these heads are basically junk, piston made contact with the driver's side one after a rod bolt let go. I took the picture to simply prove a point on facebook that they would work on the ej22.
    My 1997 Legacy L

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    SLi Lurker nepbug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dna View Post
    Couple of quick questions
    1. What kind of engine management would you guys recommended for this build.
    2. Will the 251 injectors be enough to quinch the tdo4's thirst?
    3.Will my stock fuel pump supply enough fuel?

    On my previous build I ran emanage blue which did ok but I could never really find any good info to get the car dialed in perfect. I also used a rrfpr and had a walbro 255lph which looking back was overkill for the 5psi I ran.
    1. Personally I would go with either a WRX ECU conversion or a standalone like a megasquirt. It really depends on the emissions requirements of where you are; i.e. do they hook up to the OBDII port. There are lots of options, if you're most familiar with emanage that might be the best way to go about it (I can't remember if you can change timing with emanage though)
    2. I've heard of people going both ways, it entirely depends on what level of boost you are going with.
    3. I'd swap in a WRX/STi fuel pump. You can get used ones very cheap and it's good insurance.

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    SLi nOOb dna's Avatar
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    Funny you said wrx ecu I was reading this earlier http://www.rs25.com/forums/f105/t199...-ecu-swap.html as for emissions there are 0 they basically look under the vehicle to see if a cat converter is present if so then you are good to go. Some shops don't even look, I tried searching for the wrx ecu swap on here but didn't find much. Would this allow me to run an accessport? As for boost levels I was planning on the td04 stock wastegate of 8-10 psi but the more I read on these hybrids I may push it some as long at it remains fairly reliable.

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    SLi Lurker nepbug's Avatar
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    Yeah, you'd be able to run an accessport, but I would stay away from the off-the-shelf tunes, they won't work for your setup well at all. You'll have to tune yourself or get a pro-tune.

    And if you are going to tune yourself, you might as well go opensource and get a Tactrix Openport instead and save the money over the accessport, shoot even a pro-tune will end up cheaper with an openport. Not really sure if the accessport is worth the cost if you don't use the OTS maps.

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    SLi nOOb dna's Avatar
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    True I think tatrix is the way to go. Seems like the wiring wouldn't be to bad for the wrx ecu either.

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    SLi nOOb dna's Avatar
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    Now that I looked into it I don't think the wrx ecu is the route I'm going to take. Just a little more work then i want to put into it. I'll probably try to find an emanage ultimate or a similar piggyback since I am already somewhat familiar with them.

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    SLi nOOb dna's Avatar
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    AEM Fuel Ignition Controller (F/IC-6) anyone used one of these?

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    t3h ub3r m3mber lord flashheart's Avatar
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    The 6 is for a 6 cylinder iirc. You need an F/IC-4. And they have proven problematic on subarus. And ive been really unhappy with the customer support i recieved, so i am suggesting a different piggyback.
    http://sl-i.net/FORUM/showthread.php?t=18998
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    Th3 EviL OvErLORd Reason's Avatar
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    Yea the fi/c4 isn't good for older Subarus. I've talked to a few tuners when I was looking for engine management. I ended scoring a PP6 piggyback on here. Although I haven't had a chance to use it, and not sure if I ever will...
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    The fic6 can be used on up to 6 cylinder engines. There have been some successful installs on subarus, but need resistors wired in to the cam and crank sensors to avoid some electrical static that causes very bad behavior. I have one for my 20k swap whenever I get the engine rebuilt and get around to installing it. If you go the aem route do plenty of reading so you know what you're going to be getting into. If I were going to use phase 2 heads and manifold I would definitely not write off the wrx ecu swap as it has so much more potential than any piggyback on the market.
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    SLi nOOb dna's Avatar
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    Thanks for the heads up flashheart, Im suprised by the lack of support from AEM it seems like back in early 2000 AEM was on top of the game when it came to tuning.
    There are to many options haha I'm gonna research hardcore this weekend then try to narrow it down to a few systems.
    I'm not opposed to wiring and actually I kind of like it to an extent. It can be frustrating sometimes, but whatever EM route I take some wiring will be required.
    Even though this is a budget build I am still going to spend the money where it truly counts. Even if that means saving a little longer. This isn't my daily driver so time isn't really a factor. I just want the car to be right when I button everything up and fire it up for the first time. This will be the quality budget build haha.

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    SLi nOOb dna's Avatar
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    here is the 03 leggy back in the summer, right now it's under about 2ft of snow haha.

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    That thing is nice!
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    SLi nOOb dna's Avatar
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    I know man, it's a super deal. I'm only paying 1000 for it. The body has 180,000 on it and it's on its 3nd motor. I haven't been out to look at it yet, but when I saw it before the body was in great shape. Some damage on the front lt fender from a deer but otherwise solid.
    I'm curious about the engine that is currently in it because, when I saw him last the car was on motor #2. One that he bought from autozone, later in the summer he had the engine replaced by a local mechanic and was told there was 2 different engines that he could have choose from, although he wasn't sure which one was put in.
    The details I got were very vague. I can't wait to go pick it up and dig into it, but right now the road down to his house is unplowed so, I have to wait until the weather clears to pick it up.
    Last edited by dna; 02-03-2017 at 09:43 PM.

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    While I'm at it I figured I would post up my other Subaru's. I don't have many good pictures of my old turbo setup I'll search and see if I can find some better ones.

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