screw you toyota, lets go subaru

[hapatimmy]

This may be bias because I hate Toyota, but I am really sick of all the ignorant people buying Toyotas just because they are the most "reliable" car. Toyotas has had constant recalls because of their gas pedals accelerating without warning, wounding many and taking some lives. While Subaru now has the best resale value. It'll be very interesting to see what happens with the FT-86/216A. Well enough ranting for now, I hate Toyota and their characterless cars.

[hallowpoint]

^^im sorry but toyota makes a good product, and why wouldnt someone buy a car because it reliable, that doesnt make them ignorant. you buy a car to get you from point A to B, so it makes sense to buy a car you dont have to worry about. subaru has also made recalls on automobiles.

[d1giPhux]

you do know that subaru is partially owned by toyota correct? and the real reason you hate toyota is... your from torrance! LOL it all makes sense now. :smt005

[Huffer]

This may be bias because I hate Toyota, but I am really sick of all the ignorant people buying Toyotas just because they are the most "reliable" car. Toyotas has had constant recalls because of their gas pedals accelerating without warning, wounding many and taking some lives. While Subaru now has the best resale value. It'll be very interesting to see what happens with the FT-86/216A. Well enough ranting for now, I hate Toyota and their characterless cars.

Constant recalls? You better do some research. Subaru SHOULD have had constant recalls on their WRX, STi and late 90s Legacies. Instead, they went with a "oh, we'll deal with it on a case by case basis - sorry for those folks who have an STi and a too-lean from factory map; anyone with a HG leak or hey let's design an EJ25 with rod knock".

The gas pedal thing is NEW for Toyota and is hurting them badly. I have been driving a 2010 Tundra and haven't had any issues so far.
At least Toyota manned up and issued a recall, then put a hold on sales - that tells me they're in the game long term and not desperate to turn a quick profit.

As for "ignorant people" - some people just like the idea of having a cheap to run, reliable vehicle. Some of my own family have bought Toyota's on my recommendation because they're not the kind of people that like to think about their cars 24/7 - unlike many of the people you find on a motoring forum.

I tell you what I'm sick of - all these people who are "sick" of other car brands. Without other brands, models etc we'd ALL be driving lifeless cardboard-cutout cars. So be happy there are other car brands around to provide competition, technology enhancements and visual design.

[2000gtb]

/\/\ what he said... to do a move like this and loose alot of money just to make things right, they are doing the right thing.. I wonder if you hate american car manufacturers, they been makin crappy cars for so many years, its just now that they are waking up to find out they cant compete with other brands if they dont get their acts straight..

[jey]

I have no serious personal prejudice against Toyota/Lexus but they are definitely overrated. I hear people all the time saying "I'll never buy anything but a Lexus, you never hear anyone say they've ever had any bad experiences with a Lexus." I'm glad finally this gas pedal thing has gotten blown up to the national level (we had a local incident in St. Louis involving a GS with a stuck pedal almost 2 years ago but the family sued and got a huge settlement - which is how they usually handle incidents which is why nobody ever hears anything.)

And another thing - Toyota/Lexus are good cars but you can't fix STUPID - it's still a car, it probably has its faults, and you have to use common sense!

[d1giPhux]

Toyota makes a good car in my book.. and yeah.. you cant fix stupid.. thats for sure! Haha. Stuck gas pedal you say... psh. My suby is usually stuck on WOT anyways. :lol:

[green97gt]

toyoters are a decent cheap car, characterless yes, but so are the new subarus.

there is a guy in my town that has a lexus coupe(late 90s sc400?) that has a huge sticker in the back window that says "NEVER BUY LEXUS" i keep wanting to find the owner and ask him what the story behind it is. i figure he got some crappy customer service.

[anothernord]

Toyota's make some of the most invincible cars on the planet. There is a reason why expeditions to crazy places always use Toyota Land Cruisers, and 4-Runners. Just watch the Top Gear episode where they try to destroy an old Toyota pickup. I have full respect for their cars, but they seem just like run-o'-the mill cars. Subaru has a unique way of making cars.

[DLC]

Toyota has been in a steady downhill spiral of quality since 1997:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/hammer ... a-reality/ (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/hammer-time-the-toyota-reality/)

[mike-tracy]

I've had a 4-runner, Pickup and Corolla (all gone now). My family are diehard Toyota fans, ever since switching from American cars in the 80s. They are cheap to operate, generally very reliable and, yes, boring. I love my Subarus very much, but I swear I'm always tracking down some problem with them. If I moved to somewhere I didn't need AWD, I would get something else (most likely another Toyota) as a DD, but keep my 91 SS for fun. One thing I noticed about the Toyota dealerships is they charge more, but the cars are more tolerant of aftermarket sensors and parts in general than my Subarus.

[legacy98gt]

i just got a toyota for free a 2010 matrix and yesturday and today they had he recall so i took it back and they gave me a rental car but they were bitches about it and i had to fight for a rental

[green97gt]

Was it the gas pedal recall? If so I would think they should have fixed it before they gave itto you.

[Huffer]

There IS no fix for the gas pedal recall right now - and you don't HAVE to take it back... I'm driving a 2010 Tundra and there haven't been any issues. Toyota is just covering the bases.

[mike-tracy]

The temp fix is they ziptie down your floormat. :lol: My '04 corolla had hooks on the floor that latched into the floormat, don't know why they got rid of that?

[Huffer]

^^ that's an additional recall. The gas pedal sticking is different.
They haven't changed the floormat hooking system, just some stupid owners don't read the instructions and install mud mats OVER the top of the carpeted ones, they come loose and jam under the pedals.

[mike-tracy]

Dang, they really are having problems, aren't they.

[Huffer]

well the floormat thing is because people are stupid. The gas pedal is a genuine issue.

[rougeben83]

Yeah my friend has a rav4 that was under the recall, she called the local dealership and they basically said someone at the head office released the press release too early regarding the recall and it would be another couple of weeks before any of the dealerships would actually be ready to start working on recalled cars.

[98outbackpdx]

a lot of the new cars have these stupid shifters for the auto/cvt trannys. people need to learn in any car how to put the car in neutral. consumer reports did a video on the sticking gas pedals and put a video up on youtube on what to do if you are ever in that situation. you should see the shifter the 2010 prius has. i would have a hell of a time trying to figure that out, and i can figure just about anything gadget wise on a car, almost instantly.

the video from consumer reports
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoIIT0WJS4s

[decke48]

toyota's are ok cars sure there not what they use to be, but all makes are getting that way, tacoma and tundra frames are junk though. 05+ tacomas and 00+ tundras are case by case. we've seen a 07 tundra frame already and 00-05 tundras are coming popular for buy backs
btw the gas pedal recall is shorting the plastic pedel. but is also thought to be in the throttle cable/DBW

[ilovemy96]

i actually like both of them because they are reliable, my other car is a 90 celica and i've owned it for the last 7 years without problems besides changing the alternator and radiator and it has 215k.

same goes for my legacy, it hasn't given me any problems.

though i can't wait to see new toybaru...

[Kraziken]

I'm an original Toyota fan, and it seems they've really lost their way in terms of the performance market, but lets face facts, the performance car enthusiast is a small group.

The gas pedal thing, I find it hard to believe it isn't an ECU/electronic issue, not floor mats sticking under the gas pedal. I mean that should happen across all makes if people are stupid right?

As for people dying from this, all I have to say is that is because people don't drive anymore. Is it that hard to figure out how to shift into neutral? People who drive cars with three pedals will probably never die from "sudden acceleration."

I think one case someone actually called 911?

The loss of the Celica/Supra/MR2 are huge hits to the Toyota image. I hate the Prius. I guess the Scion group has something to offer, but I hope they make a push to actually make something sporty and fun versus these brainless commuter boxes.

[jey]

The gas pedal thing, I find it hard to believe it isn't an ECU/electronic issue, not floor mats sticking under the gas pedal. I mean that should happen across all makes if people are stupid right?

Exactly, they finally figured it out. The latest production/sales freeze involves condensation getting into the drive-by-wire throttle and shorting it out to a FULL THROTTLE signal even if you're not touching the pedal.

[Huffer]

The gas pedal thing, I find it hard to believe it isn't an ECU/electronic issue, not floor mats sticking under the gas pedal. I mean that should happen across all makes if people are stupid right?

As for people dying from this, all I have to say is that is because people don't drive anymore. Is it that hard to figure out how to shift into neutral? People who drive cars with three pedals will probably never die from "sudden acceleration."

Ken - there are TWO recalls. Floormats being incorrectly installed, AND gas pedal failing to return to original position once foot is removed from it.

Floormats: http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyo ... 53214.aspx (http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/toyota-amends-recall-on-potential-153214.aspx)
Gas Pedal not returning: http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyo ... 52196.aspx (http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/FAQ-for-Sticking-Accelerator-Pedal-152196.aspx)

People are confusing the two recalls.

The fix for the floormat issue is that Toyota is trying to allow people to (basically) incorrectly install floormats by modifying the accelerator pedal/modifying the floor/modifying the floor mat.

[Kraziken]

Sure, but didn't they initially do the floor mat recall in response to the acceleration problem? And after more investigation they believe it is the pedal and issued a second recall?

To summarize I think the problem is not widespread, it is probably difficult to reproduce the conditions that cause this, and that is why it has lingered around. So I guess some could blame Toyota them to be slow in reacting. Technicians probably tried to reproduce this issue and were unable to find the gremlins. Initially I bet they blamed the operators (I work in the computer industry, so who do I blame first? The user of course :grin: )

It is a hit on Toyota's image, but it doesn't change my opinion that in general they make good cars.

From the MSNBC article.
------------------------------------
WASHINGTON - For a century, the basic idea behind pressing the accelerator on a car has been pretty straightforward. What's going wrong with some Toyotas isn't simple.

Experts say the sudden acceleration problem that has put the brakes on Toyota sales and production is likely not a single problem but an alignment of complicated interconnected conditions.

Nothing illustrates that more than the contradictory statements from the two companies involved. Toyota Motor Corp. is telling the government that it thinks a friction problem in its accelerator pedal mechanisms may make the pedal "harder to depress, slower to return, or, in the worst case, mechanically stuck in a partially depressed position."

CTS Corp., the Elkhart, Ind., supplier that makes the devices for Toyota, said in a statement Wednesday that the friction problem accounts for fewer than a dozen cases of stuck accelerators, "and in no instance did the accelerator actually become stuck in a partially depressed condition."

If there were a simple answer, a one-thing gone wrong glitch with a fix, it's unlikely Toyota would be in the mess it's now in...

[Huffer]

Sure, but didn't they initially do the floor mat recall in response to the acceleration problem? And after more investigation they believe it is the pedal and issued a second recall?

Nope. Read the links I posted. They're two different recalls.
The first one that appeared was the floormat issue. So they stopped selling the floormats.
Floor mats are back on sale but for limited models.

[Grafton]

i don't really see the huge advantage the DBW system brings to the table...
<- just fine with my steel cable

[Kraziken]

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/toyota ... ck-pedals/ (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/toyota-found-fix-for-stuck-pedals/)

[Huffer]

^^ if that's true, then that's awesome. A simple, elegant solution. Typically Japanese. :lol:

[decke48]

im not sure if is the pedal assembly causing the problem, i had a conversion with a toyota engineer, with the upcoming "tundra frame recall" and they say some models are having problems with the DBW systems having incorrect readings. so there may be another recall coming. as far as the floor mat vs pedel are two seperate recalls they focus on the same issue. i you every get into the major majority of toyota owners cars the floor mat are all winkled up against the pedal. as far as the shifting in to neutral, most people will panic and try to slam the brake, or just freak out and crash. or slam the car into park.

[ouch1011]

i don't really see the huge advantage the DBW system brings to the table...
<- just fine with my steel cable


1) Emissions. The PCM now has control over the throttle and can use that as another variable to help it control emissions/fuel economy.

2) NVH. Cables transmit noise and vibration.

3) Acceleration feel. If you push on the gas pedal 1/4 and the PCM opens the throttle 1/2, it makes the car feel more powerful than it really is.

Now, personally, I dislike the throttle by wire as well, but there are reasons why it exists.

For (new) Toyotas, I don't like them. I beleive they are unjustifiebly expensive, overweight, boring utensils built by accountants in an office, and I believe the new Toyotas have a reputation that they don't deserve. The build quality isn't any better than the comparable domestic cars, their reliability is not anywhere near what it used to be, and the 2.4L that they seem to put in everything is a horribly buzzy, underpowered engine. The newest Toyota that I've driven and enjoyed was an 02 MR-S, and even then I felt like I had to put a bag on my head.

Older Toyotas are MUCH better because they are so much more simple. Older Toyotas were reliable, they were inexpensive, and while they were still bland, boring utensils for the most part, they didn't try to sell themselves as anything but that, and they didn't cost $30k for a 4cyl family sedan.

Then again, I could say the same about Subaru. There isn't a single new Subaru that I like. They're all fat, ugly, and overpriced. The Legacy was the last good one, but they ruined that with the last redesign.

[Grafton]

i don't really see the huge advantage the DBW system brings to the table...
<- just fine with my steel cable


1) Emissions. The PCM now has control over the throttle and can use that as another variable to help it control emissions/fuel economy.

2) NVH. Cables transmit noise and vibration.

3) Acceleration feel. If you push on the gas pedal 1/4 and the PCM opens the throttle 1/2, it makes the car feel more powerful than it really is.

Now, personally, I dislike the throttle by wire as well, but there are reasons why it exists.

For (new) Toyotas, I don't like them. I beleive they are unjustifiebly expensive, overweight, boring utensils built by accountants in an office, and I believe the new Toyotas have a reputation that they don't deserve. The build quality isn't any better than the comparable domestic cars, their reliability is not anywhere near what it used to be, and the 2.4L that they seem to put in everything is a horribly buzzy, underpowered engine. The newest Toyota that I've driven and enjoyed was an 02 MR-S, and even then I felt like I had to put a bag on my head.

Older Toyotas are MUCH better because they are so much more simple. Older Toyotas were reliable, they were inexpensive, and while they were still bland, boring utensils for the most part, they didn't try to sell themselves as anything but that, and they didn't cost $30k for a 4cyl family sedan.

Then again, I could say the same about Subaru. There isn't a single new Subaru that I like. They're all fat, ugly, and overpriced. The Legacy was the last good one, but they ruined that with the last redesign.

i dont see those reasons as enough and i have to agree the 07 models represent the last of the body styles i like...

[jey]

3) Acceleration feel. If you push on the gas pedal 1/4 and the PCM opens the throttle 1/2, it makes the car feel more powerful than it really is.


DBW is not necessary to accomplish this, you can set the accelerator pedal to have twice as much travel with WOT happening when the cable is pulled halfway out. GM has been doing this for years.




Then again, I could say the same about Subaru. There isn't a single new Subaru that I like. They're all fat, ugly, and overpriced. The Legacy was the last good one, but they ruined that with the last redesign.

Disagree on the overpriced part:
- Impreza is $18k and includes all sorts of safety not found in other cars at this price point - AWD, VDC, ABS, side airbags, etc.
- Forester is $21k with the same safety features, very competitive for a small SUV
- Outback is $24k with the same safety features and tons of room, telescoping steering wheel, reclining rear seats, aux input stereo, etc.
- Legacy can be had with the 3.6L H6 for only $25k. Package includes VTD, the 5EAT, 17" alloys, etc.

The price points of these vehicles has not changed in the last decade, I remember when we were shopping for Subarus in 2000 it was about the same, Impreza starts under $20k, Forester a little over $20k, Outback a little more. And if you count inflation and more modern features you can definitely MORE Subaru for the buck than you have ever been able to.

Contrast this with some other brands that have creeped into the "Premium" price point. Volvos used to be affordable - in 1993 the 240 wagon can be had for $23k. Where did the affordable Volvos and Saabs go?

[hallowpoint]

hey where is the guy who started this thread? lets turn this board in to nasioc. haha

[hapatimmy]

haha hey hallowpoint. I just like reading what others like to say now.

[ouch1011]

3) Acceleration feel. If you push on the gas pedal 1/4 and the PCM opens the throttle 1/2, it makes the car feel more powerful than it really is.


DBW is not necessary to accomplish this, you can set the accelerator pedal to have twice as much travel with WOT happening when the cable is pulled halfway out. GM has been doing this for years.

That's probably why that isn't the only purpose for DBW that I listed. Emissions control is the main one. Acceleration feel is just a "fringe benefit" that the manufacturers take advantage of since they can.

I won't argue the overpriced part because we obviously have different views on what is a good value. Short version is that new cars are overpriced in general. I will grant you that Subarus are probably one of the better value new cars out there (as long as you don't compare to brands like Mazda or Hyundai) but still, especially with brands like Subaru, if you look at the same model car but one that is 1 or 2 years old, you could probably get it at nearly half price versus new.

[Huffer]

Actually price point is dictated by the market. If XXManufacturerXX started tagging cars at 30-40k and no-one bought them, hey presto, the price goes down.

[jey]

but still, especially with brands like Subaru, if you look at the same model car but one that is 1 or 2 years old, you could probably get it at nearly half price versus new.

Where's my 2008 STi for $18k? :)

Very few cars dodge massive depreciation in the first 2 years. Hyundai is way worse than cars that are considered "very reliable" like Honda and Toyota. But that has more to do with our affinity to new cars versus used than the price the manufacturer sets...


Actually price point is dictated by the market. If XXManufacturerXX started tagging cars at 30-40k and no-one bought them, hey presto, the price goes down.

Or they go out of business :cough: Saab

[Huffer]

Hahah - GM couldn't even FIND a buyer for Saab...

[StatGSR]

^ what are you talking about Spyker just bought Saab :smt019 :grin:

[ccampbell2546]

I do not think toyta is going downhill. My family owns a bunch of toyotas and have had nothing but great luck and service. The gas pedal issue is just a temporary problem. For years they have made great cars and they are, in my personal experience, the most reliable. All cars break down and have problems, all car dealerships suck. There's not getting around that. Just because of this I'm not going to start hating on toyota. I'm personally not even that big of a toyota fan, I love subarus but, I know toyotas are great cars. If all the gas pedals on our Subarus stuck tomorrow, I wouldn't denounce them as horrible cars and consider their quality a failure. Subaru has a great history much like Toyota. They're both great.

[hallowpoint]

^^ most definitely, their doing a really good job of reassuring the consumer that they intend to fix the cars %100. so i they are going to hurt in the short run, but over all people know there great cars.

[decke48]

now there a reports (147 reports) of 2010 prius's brakes failing. :shock:

[Huffer]

^ what are you talking about Spyker just bought Saab :smt019 :grin:

Oh sure, the "supercar" maker who has never turned a profit yet... :smt023

Tundra will be going in for the recall fix in a few days. Not that I experienced any problems...


now there a reports (147 reports) of 2010 prius's brakes failing. :shock:

It's just natures way of saying "stop driving a butt ugly car". :smt030

[Sarra]

The Accelerator Pedal Position issues that Toyota is experiencing is most likely due to an electrical failure.

1) It's not floor mats. People have had cars run away without floor mats of any kind in their cars.
2) The accelerators are not physically sticking, Steve Wosniac stated he pulled UP on the APP with his toe when his Prius ran way on him 3 times, and it didn't do anything.
3) Toyota uses a chintzy and cheap setup for their APP's. I've ranted about this on RS25.com, but I'll post it here too.

First, historically, APP's have been a set of 3 potentiometers, with redundant ground, power, and signals wires. With 0% throttle requested, 2 pots read 0.5v, and one is reverse, reading 4.5v. As you apply the throttle, the pots change resistance, which allows more voltage and current through two of the pots, and less through the third. So, at full throttle, you get 4.5v on two, and 0.5v on the third.

Toyota didn't use this system. They used ONE pot and an idle switch, and they apparently share power and ground. If you had an intermittant problem on the ground, say, a loose connector, or high resistance in the wire, the potentiometer would read 4.5v-5v, and the idle switch would read as OPEN, such as if the driver was flooring it, even if the throttle was at 0% in reality. This type of system was used on some of the older electronic diesels, and it bit some of those as well with the same problem, just not as wide spread.

I'm guessing that Toyota's permanent fix for this will be to flash the computer with a brake safety failsafe, which they already are doing, shim the return spring (pointless), and add a redundant ground to the idle safety switch, and/or to the potentiometer in the APP assay.

If they hadn't listened to the damn bean counters and just put a decent, quality system in the damn thing in the first place, this wouldn't have happened, and 47+ people would probably still be alive right now.

[1-3-2-4]

I have no serious personal prejudice against Toyota/Lexus but they are definitely overrated. I hear people all the time saying "I'll never buy anything but a Lexus, you never hear anyone say they've ever had any bad experiences with a Lexus." I'm glad finally this gas pedal thing has gotten blown up to the national level (we had a local incident in St. Louis involving a GS with a stuck pedal almost 2 years ago but the family sued and got a huge settlement - which is how they usually handle incidents which is why nobody ever hears anything.)

And another thing - Toyota/Lexus are good cars but you can't fix STUPID - it's still a car, it probably has its faults, and you have to use common sense!

You know my cousin who is an idiot who has his own business.. anyways before I got my legacy he tried to get me to buy his son's 98 audi 2.5 for like $5K anyways lol it used to have a Lexus suv but got rid of it when he figured out toyota was the parent company.. then with the trade on the Audi he got a 2000 or 2001 Acura MDX but got rid of that in less then 5 weeks because of the parent company issue.