Turbo Swap/Build vs NA Swap/Build

[Wangan Wagon]

Hey there guys. I was just wondering which would be the cheapest (but not the K-Mart/Canadian Tire kind of cheap) path to 600+whp. Time is not a factor however. These are the Options I have in mind:
I) USDM EJ25 Phase II Swap Built
II) USDM WRX Swap Built
III) JDM Ver. V/VI EJ20T Swap Built
Also, is it possible to get the Ver. V/VI EJ20T to 2.5L? I hope you can understand, I'm just trying to make sure I most effectively use my money, like all of us tuners. Thank you for your time and consideration.

[mike-tracy]

Just go with a built EJ257. Less headache and less money spent on broken parts.
Realize, though, that you're looking at having a $10k-$15k+ engine in your car, not to mention a tranny ($5k+) that can handle that kind of power and last.

http://www.esxmotorsports.com/products/?id=5336




edited: my prices were too low.

[StatGSR]

get an LSx and swap it in, seriously. 600whp is nothing to throw a stick at with a subaru motor. honestly, you sound a bit to unaware of what subarus are capable of if you think you can just make 600 wheel by just picking a motor and going to town....

[Wangan Wagon]

Oh don't worry, I know what kind of work I'm looking at to build that kind of motor having come from DSMs. I just wanted to figure out if there were oil system differences between the NA and Turbo EJs like NA and Turbo 4G63s, and how much of an effect those differences would have. I just posed a more general question in case advice came in for issues I may have overlooked. Also, if I have have to build a turbo motor all the same as I would to an NA motor to get those power levels, If I might as well go with the cheaper motor and complete all drivetrain and engine modifications before moving onto management, headwork and turbos.

[mike-tracy]

Then you know about broken parts. Keep us posted.

[jey]

Add some thousands for engine management, tuning, fuel delivery, etc. too. Oh and the turbo you'll need to get 600 hp isn't going to be cheap either, plus the intercooler, etc. What's the application for this 600 whp? If you're drag racing then maybe you should look into NOS.


Oh don't worry, I know what kind of work I'm looking at to build that kind of motor having come from DSMs. I just wanted to figure out if there were oil system differences between the NA and Turbo EJs like NA and Turbo 4G63s, and how much of an effect those differences would have.

It's way more than just the oil system, the NA block is open deck.

[Wangan Wagon]

Well, I was hoping to aim for circuit, with top end as a secondary purpose. I figured that I would need that amount of power and torque to make up for the lack of dynamic chassis and suspension technology. Maybe if I could pull out of corners and hit the straights harder I could stay competitve with the other cars. But I need the wagon since it's really compatible with my lifestyle ( I do alot of road trips between provinces and recreational sports are a common thing for me - and my accomplices).

Trust me on the broken parts though, and the inability to stay running right for more than 3 seconds. But damn, they made power relatively compared to alot of other import options.

Oh and here comes the stupid question: What is the difference between closed-, semi-closed-, and open-deck motors?

[jey]

How much experience do you have on a racetrack? Just asking since expensive mods, lots of power, and very little track instruction doesn't usually turn out to be a fun day.

[mike-tracy]

If you have the money, I say go for it! Don't worry about closed/semi-closed deck - all the well funded subaru rally teams run closed deck. To be able to handle 600whp (750 crank) reliably you'll need closed deck and completely blue printed engine. Don't forget the tranny, there's 2 I think that can handle that, both are drag application automatics. I'm talking handle it repeatedly and last more than a day out. I'd recommend you catch a ride in a 350 whp subaru first because that car (which is very possible on stock 6-speed tranny and a stock internals EJ257 motor) has nothing in common with what you're talking about but is still ridiculously fast and can be a DD (albeit not a fun one in traffic).

[Yamazaki]

^ Yup. I've got 425 at the wheels and it SUCKS in traffic. Actually, it sucks at the track too. The power overwhelms the suspension and tires. I'll say this though - the STI transmission can handle it, and I don't shift smoothly either.

Unless you're trying to do competitive drag racing or just go for bragging rights (aka dyno queen), then there's no reason you'd need 600whp. Hell, there's really no reason to have 425 for that matter. Had I known "more power ? better car", I wouldn't have gone nuts like I did and I probably would be able to afford other things I want (S402... :cry:)




But that's me. Everybody is different.

[Wangan Wagon]

Well, if you guys don't think I need that much power to stay competitive, how much do you think would be enough? I remember my DSM (RIP - in DSM fashion it blew up) was pumping 400whp but was getting pumped by STIs and even SRT-Slows. And if anything, I was going to go with WRX Coilovers w/ Noltec Camber/Caster plates front and rear, or D2 Racing coilovers from the BD Sedan. And of course, whatever chassis and alignment/suspension parts I can get my sticky hands on. Not to mention alot of brake upgrades.

As for track experience, I used to frequent the track every other weekend since I was 17 (I'm 21 now) and I took a aggressive driving course at MoSport Circuit near Hamilton, Ontario. That of course was only in the spring and summer. I was even pursuing a sponsorship to run in the Attack Time Trial Series from Magnus Motorsports, but like I said car blew up. Never trust a friend with your MSD setup.

[jey]

This car is dyno tuned around 400 whp:

http://www.shimmysideways.com/Default.aspx?tabid=76

And it seems to stay very competitive.

[Yamazaki]

This car is dyno tuned around 400 whp:

http://www.shimmysideways.com/Default.aspx?tabid=76

And it seems to stay very competitive.
But that's not also a daily driver. OP said he wants it to be both. I'm saying that unless you are going to build a dedicated race car, you don't need absurd power. My car is still a daily driver (amenities, street suspension, etc.), and it isn't the best on the track. I'm not the best driver out there (in fact, pretty far from it), but I lent it to a couple guys who were competing at the top of their class and they fell in points after using my car each time (in both instances, their car was in the shop at the time). They said it needs much better brakes, suspension stiffening, etc. to balance the power, which of course I wasn't going to do because I drove on Hawaii roads at the time (Not the smoothest roads out there). So if you drive on perfectly flat, paved roads all the time, then go crazy.

The Japanese tend to focus on suspension/handling upgrades more than power. Both of these cars are VERY competitive (in rally) and have no more than 295whp:
http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp350/yamazakisubaru/cars/Impreza/th_DSCF0566.jpg (http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp350/yamazakisubaru/cars/Impreza/DSCF0566.jpg) http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp350/yamazakisubaru/cars/Impreza/th_DSCF0567.jpg (http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp350/yamazakisubaru/cars/Impreza/DSCF0567.jpg)


If you have ridiculous amounts of money and want a fast car that's also a practical daily driver, get an RS4 Avant (you said you need a wagon...).




Again, I am only relating my experience.

[Wangan Wagon]

Well, thing is I don't have nuts amounts of money, which this project will be somewhat long term (5 years~). And I definitely love my handling and feedback stuff over power. But hey, winters destroy Canadian roads too. All in all, I appreciate everyone's insight and opinions, as I'm looking to see what everyone thinks from their experiences. So I guess back to the original question with about 300-400whp in mind:
I) USDM EJ25 Phase II Swap Built
II) USDM WRX Swap Built
III) JDM Ver. V/VI EJ20T Swap Built
...or now I might scrape away without doing internals?

[rougeben83]

HP is meant for bragging, power delivery and torque curve is where it matters. You can make 300whp on a stock turbo block, 2.5l is better for torque as the extra displacement will 1) have more torque and power off boost and 2) quicker to spool a given turbo vs. a 2.0l.

I suggest you read up some more on wrx and sti's because right now you're just throwing parts together and slapping an arbitrary number on what you think it will make.

[mike-tracy]

Start with the EJ257. Don't even consider built N/a motors, you'll spend way, way more to get reliable power. Plus stock EJ257 internals can easily handle your 300+ whp goals. When you need more power, just swap out the crank, rods and pistons, and bam! 500+whp capable block.

[Yamazaki]

Before you even read up on WRXs and STIs though, you need to have a specific goal/purpose in mind. Then read up to find out how to get there. But you mentioned your "lack of dynamic chassis and suspension technology", so why not focus on that first? Making more power is likely going to exaggerate the handling flaws you have now.

[Wangan Wagon]

Aye. All very good points. I'll take all of these to heart and go do some research. If anything I'll hit another thread with more specific mindsets. Thank you much everyone.