'98 BK 2.5GT 5MT. Throwing code 1100, WTF? -RESOLVED-

[track8]

My DD Legacy described above, throws this 1100 code which, according to the local Auto Zone's scanner means neutral safety switch malfunction. It seems to be causing a recurring, inconsistent, momentary stumble which is accompanied with an audible clicking of some sort of underdash relay. It seems to not be associated with any conditional changes ie: heat, cold, humidity, etc.

So far, I've tried to:

1) Unplug and/or jump-wire the clutch interlock switch, didn't solve or change the problem in any way.

2) Did same with the clutch/cruise control interlock switch, again no change.

3) Unplugged, then jump-wired the neutral safety switch and it's still doing the same crap.

I'd just get the proper switch and be done with it but taking any of them out of the loop doesn't seem to correct anything. I don't like buying parts that don't cure the problem.

Any ideas?

[jey]

Autozone scanner might be wrong, according to the guide here it's the STARTER safety switch.

[track8]

Autozone scanner might be wrong, according to the guide here it's the STARTER safety switch.Is that something other than the switches I've tried bridging out of the system? I am able to hear the same clicking/unwillingness to fire during cranking, on occasion. Where is this mysterious starter safety switch?

The starter itself is like a year old, BTW but this seems not to be directly related to the actual starter itself.

[jey]

How about the ignition switch itself? Have you looked at that?

[track8]

How about the ignition switch itself? Have you looked at that?Hmm, no real way to jump-test that but a new one is only like $42.00-ish @ RockAuto. Might be worth a shot since all the other things had no effect.

[track8]

I've recently tried to ignore this, in hopes that it'd go away but, as is always the case, it's just getting worse. Today I replaced the ignition switch and hooked it up without the security system in the loop, to no avail. I suspect the clicking relay sound is the key but as the problem only occurs when my head isn't under the dash, I cannot figure out which one it is.

My other suspicion is that the ECM may be on it's way out. Are those hard to find used?

[decke48]

ignition or main relay
open/short in starter wire
bad starter
neutral safety switch

start breaking out the multi meter

[track8]

ignition or main relay
open/short in starter wire
bad starter
neutral safety switch

start breaking out the multi meter

In reverse order, all of the interlock switches have been bridged out of the system, the one on the trans, both clutch switches also, to no effect.

Once the engine is running, isn't the starter pretty much out of the loop, so to speak?

I hate tracing intermittent shorts/opens, that will be the absolute last resort.

[track8]

Drove to and from work (7 mi. each way) with 1 errand on the way home, with aforementioned yellow relay removed. Had no actual stumble, the CEL went off in between work and the errand on the way home, about 1 mile away. Then came back on leaving the lot for the last leg of the trip. :roll:

This all means nothing as it'll do this all the time too. I'll update as I put on more miles.

Does anyone know what the red, three pole relay way up above the fuse panel (under the dash, far left side) is for? Darn car runs and drives without this one too.

One more detail, the hesitation is always very brief, not even long enough to make the engine stall at idle and when it happens while accelerating from a complete stop, it's just enough to be embarrassing and usually won't stall the engine. Also, it either doesn't happen at RPM's over 2500-ish or at that point the engine speed is high enough to mask it. I know, weird, huh.

[track8]

Update:

Darn thing was bucking all the way to the dealership, on the way to get a neutral safety switch. Between talking for a bit to the parts guy and a tech, it seems likely that the click and CEL are more of a collateral result of the stumble than the cause. P1100 supposedly is a "no start" situation.

So, I'm going to go at this from a random misfire angle, starting with a new coil pack. It has an MSD/Neon unit, maybe it's going kapootski.

I'll post my findings.

[track8]

Changed spark plugs. No change.

Installed new neutral switch (the one on the transmission) since it's cheap and does control some computer inputs related to driveability. No change.

Going to check into hooking up a datalogger.

[nomad666666]

ya wtf have the same code find a fix yet

[track8]

ya wtf have the same code find a fix yetNothing yet, a local guy has a logger I can use but it's on the fritz at the moment. The logger is on the fritz that is. I'll post any findings.

[track8]

New slice of information: This problem is growing more frequent and more pronounced, leading to now noticing that while the engine is in this stuttering mode, it loses tach function. That tells me there may be an intermittent open circuit in the ignition system wiring.

Great, tracing an intermittent wiring issue. This sucks.

[Huffer]

Wild shot, have you tried a new ECU?

I hope it's simple fix, I hate electrical.

[track8]

Wild shot, have you tried a new ECU?

I hope it's simple fix, I hate electrical.

I've considered the ECU as a possible culprit but keep ruling it out for 2 reasons. One is that they seem difficult to borrow for diagnostic purposes and I don't want to buy one that has no real guarantee that it'll even work and then being stuck with it since boneyards seem reluctant to accept returned electronic components. I' am going to look on E-Bay for used ECU's here in a moment, just for the fun of it. Do AT and MT use the same ECU?

The other reason is, wouldn't the ECU sense it's own malfunction by throwing some other sort of code?

Here is a kicker to ponder in all of this, the injectors seem to keep feeding fuel while the ignition is dropped. Strangely, the ECU never detects any misfire. And, the engine never actually stops running, it all clicks back on before the crankshaft stops turning.

And here is a question, would the CEL remain lit if the ECU were losing power momentarily? I'm fairly sure that when the it's off, the light would be off also.

I have ordered an ignition/starter relay this morning. News on that in a few days.

I hate wiring crap as well. My sense of all this is that it doesn't (really) seem like a wire thing, the open circuit would have
gone permanent by now, me thinks/hopes.

[track8]

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2010/12/Picturesofblackpinkcar018-1.jpg

Here is a pic of the "starter/ignition relay". I cannot find anything like it anywhere on the car. Anyone know where Subaru hid it?

[track8]

Ok so, I found the brown relay, it's in the far upper R.H. corner above the interior fuse panel, about as far from easy reach/sight as Subaru could have possibly made it. 2 hrs. of contortion later, the new relay is in place. Don't know if it fixed anything, in fact it seems like not.

Getting sick of this.

[track8]

So, here is a curveball for anyone who happens to still be paying attention to this saga.

After the last post, as mentioned the car seemed no better than before installing the little brown relay. Even had the codes read again. It was then showing:

1100, starter safety circuit malfunction, still.
1101, Neutral indicator switch.
0420, catalyst blah-blah.
0440, evap. etc.

In fact, after a lot of errands and a short trip to West Bend (80-ish mile round trip) nothing seemed different.

Yesterday after work, the check engine light is not on. Great, probably burned out no? Well no, it still cycles normally then goes off, like its supposed to. For 4 errands yesterday and both commutes today, plus a trip for groceries. And the engine seems to be behaving better. Not 100% mind you but better for the moment. Hmmmmmm. Seems like I may be getting closer. The CEL has yet to reappear.

The clicking relay is still happening when the stumble occurs but as I've swapped it with an identical one next to it, the hesitation is the cause, not the symptom of the relay. The relay in question, if it matters, is a round aluminium deal with a 4 spade plug, just below the brown one that I replaced. It is actually one of 3 identical relays in that corner of the dash. The actual culprit has a lime green plug. If anyone has a clue what that controls, that may send me in the right direction to fully cure this thing.

Any ideas?

To nomad666666, the brown relay may fix your deal.

[Huffer]

I'm still following this, but I have nothing without a pic. I can't even visualize anything for you.

[track8]

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/01/Picturesofblackpinkcar020-1.jpg

This one is fuzzy, I'm a crappy photographer but it should show well enough for this, I hope


https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/01/Picturesofblackpinkcar021-1.jpg

Here are pics of the type of relay that is clicking. Getting a pic of them as installed in the car is not possible as one cannot actually see them, they are blocked from view by the fuse panel and various relays and relay brackets. I had to remove them by feel. There are three of them, located directly above the interior fuse panel, on the same plane, as far up as you can get. It may be possible to see them if the AC duct were removed but it's freaking cold in my garage this time of year and I'm concerned that I'll bust the retaining tabs off the vent trim.

BTW, the CEL returned this morning. I'll code read it ASAP but I suspect it'll be P1100. Again.

[nomad666666]

1101 might be the neutral switch in transmission

[track8]

1101 might be the neutral switch in transmission

Already been replaced. Posted Nov. 24. No conclusive improvement. Also was never the original issue. I've run the car without that switch plugged in and also with it jumped. It does things with idle speed but nothing to change the hesitation.

Car is running like crap again BTW. Thinking ECU, since all other things have proved inconclusive. Looked for one on E-Bay a while back, manual trans ECU's for a '98 2.5L are super rare it seems.

[track8]

Just looking at the Napa online, it shows the round relay pictured above, as a fuel pump relay. There are 3 of them in a cluster. Big help huh?
Maybe my fuel pump is going on the fritz? Jeez, this is a mess.

[nomad666666]

remove the knock sensor clean the mounting surface and retorque it.

[track8]

remove the knock sensor clean the mounting surface and retorque it.

Hmm, can't hurt to try that. Just out of curiousity, does the knock sensor hear piston slap? Got lots of that but there again, it's had slap long before this issue showed up.

[nomad666666]

http://www.northursalia.com/modificatio ... rclip.html (http://www.northursalia.com/modifications/drivetrain/paperclip/paperclip.html)

hesitation fix might help????

[track8]

I will be investigating the knock sensor oversensitivity thing, the initial hesitation acts a whole lot like retarded ignition timing on old mechanical distributer ignition engines. (yes, I'm old enough to have worked with them, a lot)

Detouring from the point a bit, I've got a line on an ECU from a '99 2.5GT 5/MT. Does anyone know conclusively if this ECU will be compatible with my '98?

(edit): This thread http://www.sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php ... 68&start=0 (http://www.sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13168&start=0) makes me believe all '96-'99 ecu's may be compatible including both A/T and M/T. :(edit)

Is there a place I can check on other cross-compatible units and how to tell them apart?

Car ran really well today, only hesitated/clicked twice on a 40-ish mile (one 15 minute stop) freeway and city combined, round trip.

[track8]

Removed the knock sensor, the surface is clean and shiny so I teflon taped the threads and reinstalled it.

Didn't help.

Any info on ECU compatibility yet?

[track8]

So today, car has been her usual cantankerous self, running wise. On the way to work and back, CEL is on. Trip across the county to shovel snow, CEL is on. Driving home, no CEL. No change in running, just no CEL.

Really thinking the ECU is confused/dying a slow death. Been trying to find info on compatibility of ECU's and it seems I need to find a year and transmission match.

I'm also thinking possibly the ignitor? Anyone know how those act when they are going south?

[jey]

Usually a bad ignition pack causes random misfires (across random cylinders).

[track8]

Ok, going to get one, try it and report back.

[nomad666666]

what codes do you have this week

[track8]

Haven't had the codes read lately. Don't care for the moment, once the new igniter pack (stupid things cost $200.00+ new) shows up I'll install it and report back.

Actually the CEL goes away for a day or two about once a week. Now it's just a joke to me.

[track8]

Installed the new (not used, brand new in the box) igniter pack. No change.

[track8]

Aforementioned relay (the one that clicks during the hesitation/stutter) with the green plug has been positively ID'd as the fuel pump relay. That should help steer this all in the right direction. Datalogging this thing early next week, I'll post what is found.

[track8]

Installed a stock Neon coil yesterday, car hasn't missed a beat in over 100 miles (3 separate trips) and the CEL went away. Not ready to do backflips quite yet but this problem seems to be solved. I'll report back in a few days, when I'm more positive.

Thanks for all the help/suggestions. :smt023

[track8]

I did try to datalog this thing, BTW. The program for Droid, called Torque, won't talk to my ECU. It works on the '05 Outback that my friend (the owner) has. Weird.

My Legacy is still running good...

[track8]

So, the BK ran perfectly all this week. I'm going to be so bold as to state that this issue is resolved.

[nomad666666]

:smt023

[track8]

The day after swapping out the coil, the CEL went off. Well it came on again after about 3 more days and stayed on until this past Wednesday when I had it scanned: P1100, P0136. Cleared them, CEL hasn't returned.

Car is still running great through this all.

I still do consider this resolved.

:smt023

[track8]

Well folks, it's been nearly a year and the stock Neon coil is performing flawlessly. Figured I'd give y'all a long term update.

[Huffer]

Good to know! You've been through a lot with this car.

[track8]

With regards to this one issue, yes it's been a pain. The car is just awesome in most other ways, however.

It would be nice if it were faster... STI swap is NOT in the future for this car, Haha. I will be looking at a 4th gen turbo/5mt-6mt wagon when I decide to retire this car.

[nftyper]

Thanks for the thread. I was having the same problem but with misfires. After reading this, i grabbed a spare coil i had from my old engine, swapped it and shes back to normal.

[track8]

Awesome, always hoped some good might come from this experience.