BC Racing or KW Coilovers?

[Wangan Wagon]

Yeah, I know TEIN coilovers would be ideal for direct fitment coilovers for the BD/BG/BK chassis, but have you guys any experience with KW suspension or BC Racing? I'm guessing with the pricing bracket, the BCs will be just about as garbage as D2s or K-Sports, but the KWs look promising. Here are the Ebay adds I found for them:

BC Racing Type BR: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... K:MEWAX:IT (http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310190468470&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)
KW Variant III:http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190381363635&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

So if anyone knows anything about these companies, your insight would be appreciated.

[Brockley]

BC. period.

[impreza_GC8]

BC is actually supposed to be a quality company.

[slaytalera]

from what i hear KW is really good

[impreza_GC8]

Looks like you're gonna get a bunch of responses like these, where people have heard things. They are both decent companies. I would make your decision based on which one offers the best company support, customer service and has quick turnaround on rebuilds.

[Brockley]

i've run BC's for over a year, and know of 10+ people in the area in scoobys with them. BY FAR the best coil for the Money. 7k/5k rates are great for street. 8k/6k if you are gonna auto-x it. stiffer if you want...

[jamal]

ha wow.

BC is not even close to the level of quality and performance of KW. Neither is tein.

KW is BY FAR the better shock.

[Wangan Wagon]

So Brockley, what have been your experiences with the BC setup, both good and bad? And Jamal, What have your experiences with KW been like?

[jamal]

It's really not even worth comparing the two. BC is the same cheapo junk as all the other stuff you find for $1000, like megan, stance, k-sport, etc. Essentially they all use the exact same parts just with different colors. There are one or two shock bodies in different lengths, and then the lower mounting points thread on to suit whatever car they're for. This in itself isn't that terrible, especially if you have different damping curves made specifically for each application. But, these companies are producing the cheapest possible dampers that they can so there is not even any consistency from one to another, let alone valving for each application.

Every time someone runs a set of these on the dyno they find that the curves are wildly different even from corner to corner. KW, on the other hand, has specific valving for each application that is developed on a 7-post rig along with extensive road and track testing. Then they dyno each damper before it goes out to ensure that the curves are within 4% of each other shock and that the adjustments do what they are supposed to. If this is not the case the shock gets taken apart and inspected to see what went wrong.

That gives you an idea of the parts that go into the shocks and the quality control that goes into them, which is actually pretty clear when you realize the manufacturing cost of a set of cheapos must be in the $300-500 range. That's how much the springs and helpers that go on a set of KW's etc costs, so clearly the BC springs are sourced as cheaply as possible and will likely come out uneven if the spring rates were tested.

KW makes a housing and damper specific for each car. So the valving, ride height rage, spring rates, and travel are all where they should be for optimal performance and ride quality. Cheap coilovers throw together a generic set with adapters for your car, and then try to make up for it with a huge range of ride height and valving adjustment. Unfortunately this doesn't really work and to make matters worse they do not have enough shock or spring travel. So you end up riding on the bumpstops and picking up tires left and right. Sure the car will be stiffer and lower and "handle like a go-kart," but that does not mean that it handles better in reality or produces more cornering grip, and cars with these suspensions tend to be very unstable on uneven surfaces.

As for my own experience, I work for a company that does suspension and chassis tuning and race car preparation. We develop our own valving for suspension and primarily use dampers from KW, AST, and JRZ, although we order the occasional set of Penskes as well. I test drive all types of suspension on all types of cars on a daily basis, from BC racing coilvers on a street car to our time attack car with $13000 JRZs, and I can say, through my experience and knowledge of suspension tuning, that BC racing coilovers etc are absolute garbage and anyone who says otherwise does not know what they are talking about.

[Brockley]

you can talk trash about the BC's all day long, but I have owned a few setups (Cusco Zero II, JIC, BC on subarus) (not counting my RX-7 either) and the BC's shit on most coilovers for a daily car. The dampers may or may not be different for each application. I was told to get stiffer springs, they would have to make me a custom set to control the stronger springs (obviously thats needed, but nice to know they would offer it)

If you plan on racing the car, and I DO NOT MEAN OCCASIONAL AUTOCROSSING- Really tracking the car- then you should worry more about the super tight tolerances the more expensive guys bring to the table. But as far as a daily car, the BC's ride amazing; they do NOT BOUNCE, they are Silent, and the ride (with the recommended springs) ride quality will be similar to stock, but stiffer. Potholes are still absorbed decently. Onramps are flat. Braking is flat.

I agree, the BC's are probably not the same quality as any of the $1500+ guys, but for a street car, they are more than enough for the average joe.

I would love to see a Dyno plot of a BC shock- I'm pretty sure they will be better than lots of the others out there. 30way adj. (dont know how precise thier adjusters are) but I can tell a very big difference by moving up 4-5 clicks.

Another very important thing to note is the BC's offer independent Ride height and Spring Preload.

[jamal]

BC is actually supposed to be a quality company.

yeah, that's what they want you to think. Then when people figure it out and their reputation goes to shit, suddenly there will be another cheap ass coilover on the market with a new name.

[Wangan Wagon]

Well, taking all that has been said, I guess it's just left upto which coilover will survive (and that means less servicing occurences) the treachery of the street and still put down amazing (yeah, and nothing less) track times with a decently seasoned driver behind the wheel. If KWs put up, I'm down for spending the money since I'll be in the N/A Time Attack class next year (EG33 bore/stroked w/ EJ25 WRX internals?) but autox for now. If the BCs survive the street better though, I may just have to go with those and find another car to dedicate to the track.

[wiisass]

I was actually impressed with the BC's that I have on my BH. They ride well for how stiff the springs are and they aren't bouncy. They're a pretty good deal for the money.

KW's are a higher quality part for a lot more money. They should have a better damper and better quality springs and components. But I'm still not convinced that the damping curves are that great on their off the shelf stuff. They also tend to have longer shock bodies than you would want to use on a race car and because of that, you end up sacrificing shock travel for ride height to an extent.

It really depends on what you're doing. I mean you said you want to do Time Attack, but how serious are you about it? If you're ready to spend $2k on KW's, you could probably put together a better setup using Koni 8611 dampers or even Bilstein strut inserts that are revalved to be how you want them. I believe either of those options would be a lot better than the KW's.

If you aren't going to be that serious and are working on a tighter budget, then I doubt your car is at the point where the BC's would hold you back much. I mean if you're fighting for a 1/10 of a second, well then you shouldn't be considering either of the options you have listed.

If you just want to have fun, I would get the BC's and spend the extra money on better tires because they'll make more of a difference anyway.

[chromehorn]

I second Wiisass's entire post. It's really annoying when people compares $1000 coilovers to $2000-3000+ counterparts. Obviously one is better. It's the bang for the buck that I think most people are interested in.

[Brockley]

lol, yea spend the other $1000 on go fast parts. and still have a good competitive suspension...

[jamal]

bang for the buck? BC racing isn't bang for the buck; it's a waste of money. For $1000 I'm making my own coilovers with konis and ground control sleeves.

I'm almost ashamed to admit that our shop evo x mr has a set of bc coils on it. we ended up not racing the car because of the transmission, and traded our custom valved KW clubsports to a car that would actually use them. All I can say is that they're terrible and I hate them. Harsh, clunky, and just no fun to drive on at all.

And have I mentioned the KW V3s are TUV certified and should last 60k miles?

[Wangan Wagon]

Uh huh.....well I've been thinking about it and my wagon isn't exactly the best chassis for a time attack car. I only think this now because I found a 99 DSM I could build instead; blown head for $500. Having more knowledge and experience in DSMs, I might as well build that as a dedicated track car, and I'll probably go with KWs or something else for that (Top Secret - the company). Thanks for the opinions and experiences. Really appreciated.

[wiisass]

bang for the buck? BC racing isn't bang for the buck; it's a waste of money. For $1000 I'm making my own coilovers with konis and ground control sleeves.

I'm almost ashamed to admit that our shop evo x mr has a set of bc coils on it. we ended up not racing the car because of the transmission, and traded our custom valved KW clubsports to a car that would actually use them. All I can say is that they're terrible and I hate them. Harsh, clunky, and just no fun to drive on at all.

And have I mentioned the KW V3s are TUV certified and should last 60k miles?

Every cheap coilover can work well on some cars. If they're using pretty much the same damper on a lot of applications, it's bound to be close to right at one point.

On my BH, they are not harsh or clunky under normal use. Hit a big bump or pot hole and you can feel that the curve is linear and not digressive like a better damper would be. But other than that they're fine. I have driven on them in other different cars and they can have a harsher feeling. It all depends on the application.

So I'm saying for the BH and BE, they're ok for the money.

I'm not condoning the cheaper setups, I would love to see someone put together a properly valved/sprung koni or bilstein setup if they're trying to stay on a budget, but the cheaper stuff does have it's place. People do have to work within a budget and sometimes the pros for a cheap setup outweigh the cons. Like if someone had a bigger budget and they wanted to run BC's, that would be dumb.

I'm interested to see how this Koni setup works out for you. What spring rates are you going to run? Did you base it off of natural frequencies and tlltd? I just don't like the limitations of the OTS dampers with regards to packaging. The valving can easily be changed, but if you're really setting up the car and want to put it at a better height, you can run into the normal ride height versus shock travel issues. But then again, you could always just get 86xx series Koni's put them in the stock strut tubes or get struts made for them and rock that setup which would be pretty awesome and should have a shock length that would work pretty well.

I really wanted to do that with Bilsteins for the wagon. But my friend is a dealer for BC and practically made me take them and I've been happy enough. And the car is just a daily, so I said as long as it doesn't ride like crap, I'll stick with them. I have too many other cars/projects to finish up to be spending tons of time measuring and designing a spring/damper package for my daily.

And no real motorsports damper should ever see anywhere close to 60k miles without service.

[jamal]

Bound to be close to right at some point? There isn't even consistency from damper to damper. Most dyno plots I've seen have shown one to be stiffer at full soft than another at full stiff. Anyway, when we take that junk off the evo I'll run it on our shock dyno. Also from the plots I've seen they are digressive (although as a side note, our rear rebound is not digressive).

I'm not actually putting together a koni/gc setup, I was just saying that that's what I would do if I was the average person with $1000 to spend on a set of suspension. I get a good deal on kw, ast, and jrz so I would go with that if I had the use/money for it. Spring rates would be about 400lb/in front and 450 in the rear for a street tire setup with 24mm swaybars.

[Mr Evolution]

r BC Racing? I'm guessing with the pricing bracket, the BCs will be just about as garbage as D2s or K-Sports...

...So if anyone knows anything about these companies, your insight would be appreciated.


Don't ask about a company's product if you already assume it is garbage.

Try a search on google and you'll get back a lot of hits regarding your question.

Here is a link
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=bc+racing+br+legacy&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

[Mr Evolution]

You are speculating and should really get a job in testing to back up your claims. What are your sources for the information? Not being sarcastic or rude, but I really want to know the speed shop that test the spring rates and damping/rebounding rates, heat capacity, and other factors that relate to the quality of the shock. Also, which shop will actually open up a shock and verify that the components are "crap", like you say. Please keep your comments about BC out of your review as you have no source and just mad that you paid $500 more for the same thing.

Ok, you work for a shock company, how come you don't post the charts that you keep referring to.

This is not a flaming session, just want the facts and not opinions.

To compare a daily driver to a time attack car is just absurd.Of course a $13,000 JRZ system is going to perform better and no, I would not be running a race program with a suspension system that has anything in the thousands of miles. Brake fluid alone has to be changed out every race or other race.




It's really not even worth comparing the two. BC is the same cheapo junk as all the other stuff you find for $1000, like megan, stance, k-sport, etc. Essentially they all use the exact same parts just with different colors. There are one or two shock bodies in different lengths, and then the lower mounting points thread on to suit whatever car they're for. This in itself isn't that terrible, especially if you have different damping curves made specifically for each application. But, these companies are producing the cheapest possible dampers that they can so there is not even any consistency from one to another, let alone valving for each application.

Every time someone runs a set of these on the dyno they find that the curves are wildly different even from corner to corner. KW, on the other hand, has specific valving for each application that is developed on a 7-post rig along with extensive road and track testing. Then they dyno each damper before it goes out to ensure that the curves are within 4% of each other shock and that the adjustments do what they are supposed to. If this is not the case the shock gets taken apart and inspected to see what went wrong.

That gives you an idea of the parts that go into the shocks and the quality control that goes into them, which is actually pretty clear when you realize the manufacturing cost of a set of cheapos must be in the $300-500 range. That's how much the springs and helpers that go on a set of KW's etc costs, so clearly the BC springs are sourced as cheaply as possible and will likely come out uneven if the spring rates were tested.

KW makes a housing and damper specific for each car. So the valving, ride height rage, spring rates, and travel are all where they should be for optimal performance and ride quality. Cheap coilovers throw together a generic set with adapters for your car, and then try to make up for it with a huge range of ride height and valving adjustment. Unfortunately this doesn't really work and to make matters worse they do not have enough shock or spring travel. So you end up riding on the bumpstops and picking up tires left and right. Sure the car will be stiffer and lower and "handle like a go-kart," but that does not mean that it handles better in reality or produces more cornering grip, and cars with these suspensions tend to be very unstable on uneven surfaces.

As for my own experience, I work for a company that does suspension and chassis tuning and race car preparation. We develop our own valving for suspension and primarily use dampers from KW, AST, and JRZ, although we order the occasional set of Penskes as well. I test drive all types of suspension on all types of cars on a daily basis, from BC racing coilvers on a street car to our time attack car with $13000 JRZs, and I can say, through my experience and knowledge of suspension tuning, that BC racing coilovers etc are absolute garbage and anyone who says otherwise does not know what they are talking about.

[Brockley]

+1, exactly what I was thinking.

If anyone is ever in my area, come by and drive my car and tell me BC's suck.. lol

[Mr Evolution]

If you are ever in NYC let me know want to check your BC suspension