building a rally cross car and need advice!

[lord flashheart]

so i joined the national guard like 3 years ago and in my contract i got a $20,000 signing bonus and
i have been planning on building a RallyX/autoX/Track car with for about a year and a half now. and
i will begin building some time in November
after taxes and bills and junk the budget will be around $7500
now the car will probably not be road legal as it will have many mods and will be striped down for weight saving.
the idea is to trailer it to and from the track. (in case i wreck it)
so now it is time to begin the blue print. and i want other peoples opinion on what the best route would
be, the goal is to be light (2000-2500lbs), powerful (220hp-300hp), safe(roll cage seat belts etc), fast, and as professional looking as possible (minimum body damage and a decent paint job).

platform options: A) a first gen impreza because its light (2600lbs) and still looks sharp.
and they make a million aftermarket parts.

B) a first gen legacy turbo, this way i could use the block to build a hybrid
engine with a WRX turbo heads trans etc. (down side is that it weighs
almost 600lbs more than the impreza and there are few places that make
suspension parts for this car, but i think the impreza shocks and junk will bolt
over) and i dont wanna spend all my time on rust repair.

C) a 95-99 legacy, because lets face it. they are pretty sweet. but again
the down side is the weight and finding performance parts.

engine options:
A) the EJ205 (01-05 USDM WRX) because they are easy to find, relatively cheap,
easy to find parts for. down side not much power to be had from it because of
the open deck.

B) the EJ207/EJ20K/EJ20G because you can get a JDM front clip off a JDM STi from
a JDM importer with low miles, inexpensive ($3k-$4k), plenty of power (250hp-276hp)
and it would come with every thing i need for the swap. downside is
finding parts for it if it breaks.

C) the trusty EJ255. plenty of power, parts, people with knowledge on the swap
downside is price. they get spendy.

D) EJ251. downside is not much power to be had from it because its N/A tuned.
but the price and reliabliaty shows it to be a good motor.

E) like previously mentioned, do a hybrid from a 2.2L out of a legacy turbo
with ej205 heads turbo etc. but the downside is that i would probably have to
use a first gen legacy which is heavier

so as it stands the budget looks about like this:
car itself (non running)- $500
engine/powertrain- $3500 (depending on the route i take)
wheels $500
tein coilovers $2000
misc.(seats, paint, brakes etc) $1000 ( or whatever is leftover)
total: $7500

OR

first gen legacy turbo $1200 (about what i see them going for in the local classifieds)
wrx heads, turbo, intake, trans $2800 (probably cheaper than that)
wheels $500
suspension $2000
misc $1000
total $7500

i may save up and buy the car now so the cost of the car isnt coming out of the budget.

any one have any thoughts on the subject?

[TGX4776]

1st gen legacy would be my choice for sweetness but an impreza is smaller and lighter but common.

[lord flashheart]

thats how i feel but 600lbs is a lot of dead weight...

[TGX4776]

might put you in an easier class though

[anothernord]

Get a beater Impreza. Get those damn things off the road.



Seriously though, get an old Impreza, and swap a WRX 2.0L motor in. With intake, exhaust, and a tune, you can easily put down over 230whp (270 crank). For that light of a car.

Don't forget skidplates and stuff to keep the paint from getting totally destroyed. Along those lines, don't expect it to stay pretty long.

[lord flashheart]

the classes are not defined by weight or anything like that. they go by mods.
there are 8 classes in all.
stock AWD
stock FWD
stock RWD
then prepared (nothing more than wheels exaust air filters etc.)
prepared AWD
prepared Fwd
prepared Rwd
then there is
modified 2wd
and modified 4wd (which is the class ill be in because the car will be heavily modified suspension powertrain chassis etc)

another consern with the 2.0 WRX motor is how much turbo lag they have. i just went and drove one and maybe im just used to the monster EJ255 under the hood of my car but the 2.0 seemed like it took along time to spool would a large straight pipe exhaust help with that?

and the skidplates are coming out of the "misc" budget. speaking of skidplates what should i make it out of? just some aluminum sheeting? old stop sign? :)

[ouch1011]

The turbo lag on the 2.0 WRX is awful, that would be horrible for rally-x imo. The US sti has WAY less turbo lag, even with a larger turbo.

I think the key would be to keep the car LIGHT. A stripped out GC impreza would be pretty quick even with a 251. Can you swap in a stock drivetrain that was available in that car and stay in the stock class? Because, unless you are pretty experienced in rally-x (guessing you aren't since you are asking these questions), you want to start in the stock class otherwise you'll be way outclassed and it won't be fun/competative.

[lord flashheart]

The turbo lag on the 2.0 WRX is awful, that would be horrible for rally-x imo. The US sti has WAY less turbo lag, even with a larger turbo.

I think the key would be to keep the car LIGHT. A stripped out GC impreza would be pretty quick even with a 251. Can you swap in a stock drivetrain that was available in that car and stay in the stock class? Because, unless you are pretty experienced in rally-x (guessing you aren't since you are asking these questions), you want to start in the stock class otherwise you'll be way outclassed and it won't be fun/competative.

thats what i discovered. and i have noticed that mid range power is important with rally cross and it seems like the ej205 doesnt spool untill its time to shift. i cant afford a ej257 which is why i mentioned getting a 255 because the spool relatively quick
but aren't as expensive. and an ej255 in a car that weighs 2200lbs would destroy. but like i said the reason i am considering the 251 is because there is no turbo lag which is awesome for rally cross.
and i do have some experience in the stock all, stock rear, and prepared rear. the reason i want to go to the modified AWD
is because there are less goofballs with daily drivers, and the class is more serious in general.
i want to go to the modified 4wd class and i dont want to race with my daily driver. so im building a purpose built car. im not asking these questions because i dont know what im doing.. im just trying to get other peoples opinions on usdm or jdm or hybrid or n/a. this thread is helping me weigh the pros and cons of each option.

[1996Battlewagon]

The simpler the better for rallycross. You seem to be getting ahead of yourself with all this talk of swapping this with that: keep it simple stupid!

The whole point to rallycross is driver control, not outright speed. Your absolute best bet is to score a early model first gen Impreza with a 2.2 and leave it in stock or add some nobby tires and an exhaust and run in prepared. You do not need a turbo swap to rallycross. The 2.2 Impreza, especailly the Brighton, is going to be far more reliable and easy to manage while you are getting the hang of things.

[chuckthefuk]

"the goal is to be light (2000-2500lbs), powerful (220hp-300hp), safe(roll cage seat belts etc), fast, and as professional looking as possible (minimum body damage and a decent paint job)."

platform options:
a) GC, sure there small and lightweight and have a million parts but .. its not a legacy :-D

b) BC, stay away from this is you actually plan on going with a more advanced ecu. OBD1 sucks! Oh and rust sucks as well.

c) BD, is built from a gen 1 impreza chassis aka GC. The BD is in the same weight range as the GD 02-07 chassis in full stock trim. I don't know where you get the idea that the impreza is the only car that can be heavily modified. The BD/BK/BG can be fully fitted with Impreza/SPT/STi/etc. parts. Specially since your going to gut n' strip the car so issue like sway bar fitment can be worked around easily.

engine options:
A) the EJ205 (01-05 USDM WRX) weak bottom end. transmissions are like glass on the wrx's although the heads a good flowing.

B) the EJ207 is a better option since you don't have to deal with the K/G motors and it has a higher output with a better design. OBD2 and very reliable.

C) the trusty EJ255. ... this would be a better budge block if you cant afford the EJ257 since its almost identical.

D) meh

E) Do a hybrid from a 2.2L out of a legacy turbo... downside is that i would probably have to use a first gen legacy which is heavier.. Why would you have to use a BC legacy to build a hybrid? You can easily source out a WRX long block with all the fixen's and just replace the block with the 2.2T. No issues with OBD etc...

Your budget does not include the cost of the roll cage, also the class your running in what are the limitations to your safety gear? Some wont accept old style gear or custom built parts without certifications.

You have many factors and variable to take into account. I am not a professional but someone who is going through the same sort of thing.

-Chuck

[lord flashheart]

I know that power and out right speed isn't a need but I've done slow and now I want speed

thanks for the input chuck

[httrdd]

If you stay n/a I would recomend a H6 of some sort swap. Either the eg33 or the Ez. You will have power at all rpms and they are torque monsters! Easily get 280-290 crank with some good intake, exhaust, cams, pnp, and tune!

[lord flashheart]

Interesting. I'm mostly familiar with the Ej series will the EG and EZ Swap in like an EJ?

[chuckthefuk]

Click his signature~!!!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hes in the middle of an H6 swap.

To be honest.. Theres a is wicked cool factor to have a H6 in a chassis younger then the BE 3rd gen legacies and yes the hp/tq is much higher and rev response is better but it isn't a 2 day job.

Keep in mind your adding 2 extra cylinders minus all the piping and turbo bits, so the weight is almost on par but "imho" that engine is still to heavy in such a light car for rally-x
-Chuck

[Grafton]

A H6 is whats going to replace the 2.5HC i'm building right now, once my car is no longer a DD.

[lord flashheart]

I've herd the new 3.6 is a beast. But you have a point about an h6. The weight. How much more work is a H6 compaired to a ej swap.

[StatGSR]

^ the hard part is still wiring which is required with either swap. mechanically the only difference is that you have to relocate your radiator forward to make more room for the engine if you go with the eg33, the ez's dont even need that since they are hardly any larger than a ej.

and yea it will work just fine for rally x. see rally x build on mnsubaru...
http://mnsubaru.com/forums/showthread.p ... ject-3.3RS (http://mnsubaru.com/forums/showthread.php/38256-Project-3.3RS)

[httrdd]

Looks like a fun build! I will have to read through that thread some time.

[lord flashheart]

That's very similar to what I'm planning but I am still not 100% sold on an H6. Mostly because there isn't a very good selection of aftermarket parts for the 6 cylinder (at least not to my knowledge)
don't Get me wrong I would rather have 200 n/a hp than 230 turbo hp. N/a power is much better but it's also more expensive and harder to get. It's easy and cheap to get 350hp from a turbo engine but to getthat much from a n/a engine of the same displacement is alittle more tricky..

[lord flashheart]

I hate making choices like this I can never make up my mind... (which is why I have to start picking these things now)

i got a $20,000 signing bonus

must be nice

[ouch1011]

The EZ30 would be an epic engine for rally-x (or auto-x). Especially if you were to get one of the higher output version ones (3.0R) since they have a wider powerband. 250hp na would be excellent.

From what I've heard, the EZ30 isn't physically that much larger than any DOHC EJ25. They can be fit into a GC/BD chassis without having to relocate the radiator in front of the core support like you have to do with the EG33. But from what I've seen, there is no aftermarket internals for the EZ30, whereas the EG33 can use EJ22/25 parts.

[lord flashheart]

ok so i am getting my bonus anyday now. however the budget took a huge hit when my outback motor went kaput. so i have nearly 2 grand going to that. but that still leaves me with a hair over $5,500
ive decided to stay true to my roots and stick to a legacy.

HERE IS THE PLAN!
car: 1993-1995 legacy sedan 5 Speed with blown motor to keep cost down ( pre-1996 cuz in utah cars built before 1996 is tested obdI and after 1996 they are obdII so i can register it.)
Engine: probably a 2.0 WRX motor (budget cuts.) or a JDM 2.0 STi motor.
color: i have some Gun metal grey left over from a different project. but i still may go rally blue, or aspen white.
wheels:i have some 17" wheels that i took off my GFs car that i am going to powder coat bronze/gold, or if i can find a good deal on some WRX or LGT take off wheels i will get those.
suspension:STi sway bars. strut tower bar. want to go with stock suspension from a new-er subaru. any suggestions?
interior: cheep used bucket seat. or WRX seat.
exterior: WRX hood scoop, mud flaps, JDM lights, a nice aftermarket grill, 4 baja lights.
exhaust:stock 05+ legacy GT dual exhaust w/ cat pounded out.
brakes:WRX front brakes/99LGT rear disk brakes.
misc: (most of this stuff is over time and if there is money left over) momo LGT/OBXT steeringwheel. plastic windows side and rear. used snow tires. short shift kit.

any thoughts?

[StatGSR]

^ 17inch wheels + rally cross is just stupid.... use 15's, 16's at the most. That is if you are still planning on building a rally-x car ( i know you mentioned track and autox as well)

[chuckthefuk]

StarGSR is correct. There is a reason why rally-x use smaller rims.

Notice how these gravel rims are designed. Small / minimal openings to prevent gravel from obstructing the brake systems/large side walls probably reinforced to absorb those unavoidable impacts / rocks flying.

http://www.bmsc.com.au/forums/attachments/buy-sell-rally-cars/6612d1245268105-oz-racing-gravel-rally-img_2441.jpg

17's will get clogged before your 1st stage is over.
-Chuck

[lord flashheart]

yeah i got street tires for the 17" but i was going to get some steelies with snow tires for race day. sorry i should have mentioned that.

[NGTD]

If you are going to use snows, you need to tube them and run higher pressures. They rountinely pop off the rims if you catch a rut.

[lord flashheart]

really? hmmm. what would you suggest i use for rally cross?
i was thinking a 15 inch wheel.

[StatGSR]

^ Rally Tires

[lord flashheart]

arn't rally tires expensive? i was always told snow tires are a great alternitive if you cant afford rally tires.

[StatGSR]

^ oh i agree with you, its basically the only alternative (besides maybe a funky small truck AT tire)

but anyway, Rally tires cost about the same as good summer performance tire.
http://www.teamilluminata.com/Shop/Tire ... ankook.htm (http://www.teamilluminata.com/Shop/Tires/Hankook/Hankook.htm)

and don't forget you could try looking for used rally tires as well.. for example..
http://www.teamilluminata.com/Shop/UsedTires.htm

[lord flashheart]

interesting...thats a pretty dope web site.
i almost forgot about the skid plate better go add it..
am i missing anything else on my list?

[NGTD]

^ Rally Tires

Yup - pick them up used. I have 2 sets that over time I have picked up for a grand total of $0.00.

I volunteer at rallies and I have been fortunate to received donated tires. Tires that are too chewed up for rallying will still last for years doing rally-x.

[lord flashheart]

Sorry to bump.
But for those following this thread I started the project.
Here is the linky
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20486&p=234487#p234487 (https://sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20486&p=234487#p234487)