Engine removal..?

[timhortons]

Hey guys... well, I've had a bit of time to work on my Suby over the weekend, but the engine is still stubbornly in the car. I was hoping to get some advice about it because I really don't want to mess anything up "forcing anything".

I can lift the engine up with the transmission, but the engine doesn't want to split from the transmission (it's an EJ25D engine with a 5-speed manual gearbox, don't know the model of the transmission though). I believe it's only attached to the engine with four bolts, but I've undone everything I can see just in case. The engine freely moves with the transmission side to side, and forward and back a little, but the transmission and engine are really stuck together.

Is there something I may have missed? I really would prefer not taking out the transmission with the engine, there must be a way to get them to separate? I supported the transmission with a jack, but maybe I just didn't get it right.

Any advice is greatly appreciated, if this has been covered before I apologize, my searching skills didn't reveal an answer.

[mike-tracy]

Is yours the 99 in your signature? I thought that was the year they switched to more than 4 studs/bolts? Dumb question but did you unbolt the headers & motor mounts?

[timhortons]

Yeah the car I'm working on is the 99 Legacy in my sig.

I unbolted the exhaust headers, and I found and unbolted two engine mounts, it lifts clear of the engine mount studs, and seems to move freely, it's just that the transmission is really stuck to it quite well.

It's possible I may have missed some nuts/bolts, but I pulled four bolts from the transmission and four nuts, also removed the starter.

[httrdd]

I know that there are bolts that bolt to the torqu converter and flywheel. You have to spin the crank to get them into position. I believe there are four of them in a rubber cover right where the trans meets the engine. you will not be able to pull the engine/trans apart without removing those!

[timhortons]

I know that there are bolts that bolt to the torqu converter and flywheel. You have to spin the crank to get them into position. I believe there are four of them in a rubber cover right where the trans meets the engine. you will not be able to pull the engine/trans apart without removing those!

I would have thought that too, but it is a 5-speed manual, so, no torque converter. I was sure manuals came apart without unbolting anything on the flywheel. You'd be right though if it was an automatic, because I would have forgotten about them :roll:

I'm going to look at the clutch fork and hopefully that comes out easily, that may hold it up as well, at least, according to sources from google.

[httrdd]

Sorry did not see that.

[timhortons]

Sorry did not see that.

No worries :cool: This will only be the second time I've taken an engine out of a car and split it from a transmission, so I think I'm just a little apprehensive about really "digging" into it. On a side note, I just read all 12 pages of your H6 swap httrdd, and it is *amazing*!! Totally envious! It looks like one hell of a mean machine!

I'm waiting for the temp to pickup before I go out and mess with my engine some more, I think if I get the weight distributed right and recheck for bolts and nuts it should eventually come off! I just have to stop poking at it and get a little more aggressive I think!

[StatGSR]

Then can be a pain to split and will some times need a good beating with a pry bar to separate.

All i can really do is give you some advice. make sure your transmission is supported. once the engine mounts are clear of the subframe.without support the trannys weight is sitting on the lower studs making it more difficult to pry apart.

check for more bolts. I know older subarus only have the 4, and i dont remember when they switched to more.

Hammer something into a crack. the alignment pegs can seize in there pretty good making all that much more difficult.

just dont be afraid to get forceful with it once you confirm you have all the bolts out.

Good luck!

[Okin DaVanh]

the alignment pegs can seize in there pretty good making all that much more difficult.




This is True.

The slider pins suck to separate when they get a little surface rust.

[timhortons]

Thanks everyone, the advice helped and I got more aggressive with it! Luckily I had my dad help out which sped things up and she's out now! I used a sharp screw driver and pounded it in an existing area where there was a little notch and then the top started to give, it wasn't easy, but it finally gave in, it was binding in several areas I'm pretty sure, but what can you do :roll:

This particular engine has eight total fastening points to the transmission, I had them all undone, it was just sticky, as four are bolts, four are long ass studs which don't help if the engine isn't lined up with the transmission!

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/7392/legacyengineout.jpg

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2733/legacyenginebay.jpg

Sorry for the cell phone pics, didn't feel like grabbing my camera :shock: it's been a long day, lol, I had to rent an engine hoist to get the damn thing out, I have a 1/2 ton chain hoist but the frame I made up wasn't nearly tall enough! Doh!

[ouch1011]

That is, in my opinion, the worst part of removing an engine or transmission...just separating the 2. Manuals are especially bad because of the clutch/input shaft/pilot bearing. Really difficult to line it up just right to remove/install it easily.

[timhortons]

That is, in my opinion, the worst part of removing an engine or transmission...just separating the 2. Manuals are especially bad because of the clutch/input shaft/pilot bearing. Really difficult to line it up just right to remove/install it easily.

Yeah I'd agree with that, it was stubborn. Being my second I was a little unsure of just how much to beat on it, but I got a screwdriver in and then that little gap that it made was enough to get things rolling. Corrosion sure doesn't help.

Now that it's out and I'm stripping it down, I think the hardest part is actually going to be finding parts for it! I've been looking around locally and the answer I've been given is "go to Subaru" or ship in from the East coast! Right now the important things on my "todo" list are gaskets, seals, bearings, oil pump, water pump, piston rings, valves & springs, belts (tensioners too), spark plugs, and spark plug wires. That's the short list anyways, I have a "need to replace" list and a "want to replace" list :roll:

[ouch1011]

Depending on what gaskets you are looking at getting, it might be easiest to get a master gasket kit from Subaru. A master kit includes literally every single gasket and seal on the engine, and will usually contain little seals that you will never find individually. And it will be less expensive than buying them individually.

[timhortons]

Depending on what gaskets you are looking at getting, it might be easiest to get a master gasket kit from Subaru. A master kit includes literally every single gasket and seal on the engine, and will usually contain little seals that you will never find individually. And it will be less expensive than buying them individually.

I was leaning towards that option, it seems to most sensible route to go. Do you know if their master kit includes improved head gaskets over what they used originally?

Yeah, since I'm basically breaking the engine down into it's component parts it would be nice to get a master set, definitely.

[Grafton]

I went ebay for everything but the headgaskets in my rebuild, ACL race bearings and Nippon piston ring's are high quality and i believe cheaper than oem too

and btw i freakin love tim hortons coffee

[mike-tracy]

Subaru's kit includes the updated part number for the HG

[d1giPhux]

Yeah, you should get the 'master' gasket kit. Just find the part number, and then get it through these guys:

http://www.1stsubaruparts.com/

I've bought lots of parts from them before, and everything has been spot on so long as you grab the part numbers. I think they ship out of cali as well. Search 'overhaul gasket set'. Subaru Part #10105AA401

Some possible part numbers for you:

http://home.comcast.net/~skipnospam/Hea ... ement.html (http://home.comcast.net/~skipnospam/Head_gasket_replacement.html)

I also have a sheet with a bunch of diff part numbers I could dig into if you really need something.

[timhortons]

Thanks for the help guys, but I'm afraid it might be in vain! I broke down more of my engine today and got to the short block... unfortunately the amount of coolant/water that got into the cylinder cracked it. I believe that's cyl #1 if I'm not mistaken, the engine is right side up in this pic, and the flywheel is on the left side.

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/96/enginecracked.jpg
Crack circled in red, and it's about a 3/4 inch crack. By the way, this is how it looked before I did anything, it must have run quite a while with a bad head gasket in order for the piston to get that clean!!! It probably wasn't even really firing, no wonder its idle was so rough!

options:
1) A local car scrapper (Pick 'n Pull) has five Legacy's in inventory, if they have the engines intact I might snag one of their blocks and do the rebuild anyways, hopefully one with the eight-hole engine bolt/studs.

2) Find another 2.5 to swap in... from somewhere.

3) I can hear an H6 in the distance! (Not exactly the favorite option right now, mostly because I don't have my own garage and I've been using my dad's and he's getting kind of pissy when I mention it "might take some time".)

I'm bummed that I can't just rebuild what I have, but maybe it's an opportunity to have some fun with it now... that damned H6 is still taunting me...

[ouch1011]

Its shocking how well a super heated steam cleaning can clean up the carbon. :)

Depending on your plans for the and how much time you have, going with another EJ25D is going to be the simplest and fastest option. Cracked cylinder liner is certainly not common on these engines, so you should be safe getting a used block, especially if you plan to rebuild it. Any other engine (other than an EJ22) and you are looking at swapping and merging wiring harnesses, which will add a considerable amount of time and complexity to the swap.

[timhortons]

Can't say I was surprised it cracked, it was driven after the head gasket failure, I just don't know for how long, thats a lot of stress for it to handle. Thought it was kind of funny how clean it got itself, would have been nice if it was reusable!

I think the best option right now is to scope out the 98 year legacy's at the wrecker, if they still have the blocks I'll just toss a coin and go for one (they let you return them so I could try another one if I have to). Right now they only have two 98's so hopefully at least one of them looks good! They're a good price out there so we'll see. If it works out then I'll be on track again!

A swap to an H6 would be fun as hell in my opinion, unfortunately I'm the only one that seems to be convinced that it is a plausible direction to take, I mentioned "harness merging" to my dad and he started swearing, lol, I don't think he wants my car to sit around his place for six months. Can't say I blame him, lol, really we just want to get a 2.5 going.

We'll see how it goes I guess, I didn't get around to really looking at the heads yet, found the block crack and called it a day, but this weekend would be a great time to snag a block from the wrecker! Trying to stay optimistic here, lol.

[jewbaru]

you pulled the motor without pulling the radiator huh.. how well did that work?

[timhortons]

I actually pulled out the main radiator that cools the engine, the radiator I left in however is for the air conditioning system. Once the main radiator is out though there is a *lot* of room to work with, so I decided to leave the air conditioning radiator in place, covered it up though *just in case*.

I had to take the engine radiator out though, it has a leak somewhere so I want to get a new one, maybe with better cooling capacity... we'll see... :-?

[jewbaru]

ive done a few engine removals.. everyone seems to think that this one is difficult. what are your feelings? besides the fact that it was stuck to the tranny, pretty straight forward?

[jewbaru]

from the pictures it looks like you had to disconnect the AC compressor.. is that true? do u think its possible to do without having to relieve the lines of refridgerant?

[mike-tracy]

from the pictures it looks like you had to disconnect the AC compressor.. is that true? do u think its possible to do without having to relieve the lines of refridgerant?

I just installed a motor without disturbing the AC system - I unbolted the compressor from the motor and moved it out of the way, then had a friend hold it while I put the new motor back in. It makes the job harder for sure, but it is doable. Last year I accidentally pierced the condenser when I reinstalled a motor, this time I put cardboard against it.

[jewbaru]

harder but cheaper. wont have to recharge it when ur done

[timhortons]

ive done a few engine removals.. everyone seems to think that this one is difficult. what are your feelings? besides the fact that it was stuck to the tranny, pretty straight forward?

I would say this engine removal was actually very easy aside from how "sticky" they seem to get. When I got my donor block from the junk yard I had a heck of a time getting it separated from the transmission too, but mostly because someone else had come along and dropped the transmission so it was all on odd angles and wasn't lining up very well for me to take it "straight off". It wasn't moving anywhere for a while, but I just kept adjusting the hoist and prying and eventually it came apart.

Aside from how sticky they can get to the transmission, I would say it's quite easy. I opted to drain the AC system, although like mentioned you can do it without disconnecting anything related to the AC, it would be a good idea to work around the AC if your AC is already working, then you don't have to muck around with it later... I just got lazy and didn't want it in the way, I kept the power steering unit in one piece though, I detached the pump from the engine and set it aside in the engine bay without disconnecting its lines or draining it.

One other thing I did just to ease the process was remove the hood of the car. I don't know if it's common or not, I just felt it would be better if it was out of the way, so I just took it off, and then when I did lift the engine I could do it straight up and out.

These engines are so light too, I really like that about them, the only other engine I took out of a car was a iron cast V8... even the short block was extremely heavy, it was pretty dismal, this in comparison is much nicer in terms of weight, which makes moving it around and whatnot pretty easy.

Of course with any project like this there will be bolts that are hard to get to, but I'd have to say I'd gladly work on one of these cars any day over some of the newer ones that literally have the engine shoehorned into the engine compartment!!

[jewbaru]

shoehorned in huh, i love it lmao. havnt heard of a shoehorn in AGES!

but all in all thats good. couple of the more "experianced" guys at my garage dont think ill be able to do it.

i figure three days is mooooooore than enough time

thursday-remove enging and heads
friday-lap the valves and reassemble everything
saturday-reinstall the engine and fill up the fluids

[jewbaru]

and i plan on removing the hood, it does make for things to be a lot easier as far as space goes. did you run into any problems where u had to use a specialty kind of tool? weve got just about everything down at my shop, everything cept a car lift that it haha

i plan to do all the work by hand, i dont like air tools. the only thing that seems to have me a little confused is that my instructions tell me, that once ive removed the starter, i have to install a "ST" (stopper set, part number 498277200) in the whole where the starter sits on the torque converter clutch case to prevent the fly wheel from spinning? is this for re alignment for when i put the motor back in? like a security that itll all slide in and line up on the first try?

if so, would it make sense after i removed the bolts that hold the flywheel to the torque converter to rotate the engine to cylinder one top dead center so i can put the timing belt back on properly prior to installing the stopper that fits into the teeth on the flywheel?

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2010/11/befccdc9-1.jpg

[mike-tracy]

and i plan on removing the hood, it does make for things to be a lot easier as far as space goes. did you run into any problems where u had to use a specialty kind of tool? weve got just about everything down at my shop, everything cept a car lift that it haha

i plan to do all the work by hand, i dont like air tools. the only thing that seems to have me a little confused is that my instructions tell me, that once ive removed the starter, i have to install a "ST" (stopper set, part number 498277200) in the whole where the starter sits on the torque converter clutch case to prevent the fly wheel from spinning? is this for re alignment for when i put the motor back in? like a security that itll all slide in and line up on the first try?

if so, would it make sense after i removed the bolts that hold the flywheel to the torque converter to rotate the engine to cylinder one top dead center so i can put the timing belt back on properly prior to installing the stopper that fits into the teeth on the flywheel?


I always use hand tools for the engine. About the special tool, you don't need that. Are you putting the old clutch, flywheel, etc on a different motor? Just use a sharpie and draw a line from the pressure plate onto the flywheel so you when you put it back together you know where the alignment is. If you don't mark it, everything still works, but your balance might be off (leading to more jerkiness when letting off the clutch).

Wait, you said flywheel and torque converter, which is it, a manual or automatic? If auto, just put a breaker bar on the crank bolt to hold it from moving. No need for the ST.

[timhortons]

I use all hand tools as well, especially when dealing with aluminum, wouldn't take the chance!

I was able to remove and strip down my engine into it's pieces without any of the special tools cited in the service manual, so I can't imagine it would be too different with the newer ones, although I did have to improvise some of the cited tools, but basically whatever I used was similar to what the "official" tool would be.

My car is a 5-speed manual though so the tool for the flywheel its mentioning isn't needed on mine. I got my donor block from an automatic, I undid the torque converter from the drive plate, not sure if that's what your service manual is saying to do, but then I didn't have to put it back together so I wasn't that concerned with alignment :P

[jewbaru]

unfortunatly.. im working with an automatic guys lol.. but u said i can use a pry bar to hold the crank pully. why do i need to remove the crank pully anyway?. im still trying to figure that out

[02_Legacy]

I think he was saying put a bry bar on the crank bolt to hold the flywheel while you take the torque converter bolts out. And I'm thinking you have to remove the crank pully to get to the timing stuff.

[jewbaru]

ah.. ok, i was trying to picture everything in my mind before i had to do it. i forgot about that. theres no special tool used to remove the harmonic balancer? or is that all part of the crank pully?

[jewbaru]

actually, i remember reading about this when i was looking into a lightened crankpully*. this is that time when u can bump the starter to loosen the bolt haha. its all coming back to me now.

[timhortons]

If I'm remembering right, I bolted up a piece of steel with two holes in it on the flywheel and an engine bolt, kept it from spinning when I undid my crank bolt. I believe it's spec'd in my book for 150 foot pounds of torque, so you need a good solid place to hold the engine from turning if you have to undo it. The harmonic balancer is part of the crank pulley on mine, all one piece.

[timhortons]

actually, i remember reading about this when i was looking into a lightened flywheel. this is that time when u can bump the starter to loosen the bolt haha. its all coming back to me now.


For some reason doing it the "bump starter" way seemed unappealing to me, I dealt with it all after it was out of the car, lol

[jewbaru]

haha, yea. little dangerous. but idk, might b easier for me to work with still in the car. ill have to look at it. now that im thinking about this. a lightweight crankpully might b in order.

[jewbaru]

how does one get in contact with "Mr. Josh" for a lightened (non-underdriven) crankshaft pulley

[jewbaru]

found him