Boosting an EJ22

[peter]

Now I have searched the forums and have found out some info on this, but alot of answers are conflicting. Some say boosting an EJ22 should not be done, itll just blow up, and others say 5 lbs of boost will be safe, others say 8-10 would be okay. So what is the final verdict, safe or no? And I have looked into the supercharger build, that does grab my interest. So with that in mind, assuming a turbo'd EJ22 is safe, what would be a cheaper, more reliable, and easier set up? And is the power gained enough to justify the cost and risks of boosting this motor?

BTW EJ22E from a 98 Legacy L

And I hate to sound like the guy always asking questions, but I really want to learn all I can, and I would rather be the annoying guy asking a bunch of questions then not learning anything lol

[subyfreak619]

their isn't a hard number on how many lbs you can safely boost a 2.2, keep in mind lbs is one thing and "flow" is another. for instance you use a td04 (small) vs. 18g (bigger) same amount of "lbs" Way different. also how many miles are on the engine in the first place comes into play with the reliability. grenadeing the engine fast all depends on fuel and ignition control. so the people that say they "boost a 2.2 with 5-6 lbs all day", are probably for 1 using a relatively small size turbo and 2 getting by with a FPR and SAFC.
but you have to drop the money to be reliable hint hint "standalone" and a good tune!
the tricky thing, for you is the single port headers on the 98. if you had dual port headers you could use wrx headers. but good luck fabing those. i'd suggest grabbing some flanges off of another junkyard header and start welding. or do the 2.5 sohc head swap. that will if im not mistaken give you 8.1-1 comp. ratio. puuuuurfect for boosting. ne way thats My $0.02

[ALL NATURAL]

DO IT!! Its much quicker than WRXs, I pulled away from an 05 STi and was 1.5 cars behind a stage 2 06 STi from 5-80mph.
My wagon is lighter than the Legacy also though.

my ej22 with a turbo setup:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs637.snc3/31970_10150202509150534_595645533_12901392_4972249_n.jpg

video:: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqChmtsVtEY
build thread:: http://www.rs25.com/forums/f145/t80959- ... s-wrx.html (http://www.rs25.com/forums/f145/t80959-obs-t-poor-mans-wrx.html)

I have an ej22 in my Impreza that I am running 8lbs. on a td04 on perfectly. No engine management what so ever. NO FPR or SAFC
I will get some eventually but that'll be when I get bigger injectors and a STi turbo.

Single port headers are out there, Borla makes them but very rare and spendy now. I snagged a set from a vendor on RS25 that did a limited custom run. Just use your stock headers and have a shop build you a custom up-pipe to clear the crossmember, thats what I did.

I push my car to its absolute limit in autoX and it has never once let me down!

[anothernord]

The EJ22 is much stronger than the EJ25. Boost it and have fun.

[peter]

alright you guys are really making me want to do this even more haha. and ALL NATURAL, your car is badass, its really inspiring me to do this. how much did your setup run?

[ALL NATURAL]

I paid $1,200 for all my parts since I bought another ej22 and tranny (ended up not using them anyways.)

This can easily be done for under $1,000 for the bare bones setup.

[peter]

That sounds so much better then the cost and having to deal with the mess of a wrx swap

[ALL NATURAL]

It is cheaper but it does have its drawbacks too. WRX swap has a lot of pros to it!

My bro and I are currently doing a 2004 WRX swap into a '98 Legacy also.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=19961 (https://sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=19961)

[peter]

Oh yeah I know everything has it's pros and cons. I just gotta look at what they are for each one and see what I should do

[ALL NATURAL]

I will do this DIY turbo-kit in a heartbeat again. Great power for the money...its just soo...affordable...and...fun/awesome!

[peter]

Well I think this may just have a future for my car. It would have to wait a few months though. I know a friend that would help me out with this but working outside in the winter doesn't sound too fun haha. Plus I would need time to track down parts and to a tranny swap

[peter]

their isn't a hard number on how many lbs you can safely boost a 2.2, keep in mind lbs is one thing and "flow" is another. for instance you use a td04 (small) vs. 18g (bigger) same amount of "lbs" Way different. also how many miles are on the engine in the first place comes into play with the reliability. grenadeing the engine fast all depends on fuel and ignition control. so the people that say they "boost a 2.2 with 5-6 lbs all day", are probably for 1 using a relatively small size turbo and 2 getting by with a FPR and SAFC.
but you have to drop the money to be reliable hint hint "standalone" and a good tune!
the tricky thing, for you is the single port headers on the 98. if you had dual port headers you could use wrx headers. but good luck fabing those. i'd suggest grabbing some flanges off of another junkyard header and start welding. or do the 2.5 sohc head swap. that will if im not mistaken give you 8.1-1 comp. ratio. puuuuurfect for boosting. ne way thats My $0.02

now is there anything else needed to do with the head swap, or is it as simple as just changing the heads out? and the 2.5 sohc heads are found on 3rd gen legacys right?

[ALL NATURAL]

the 2.5 SOHC heads won't bolt up to your intake manifold so that won't work.

Don't waste your time on a head swap.

[peter]

Dang that seemed like a good thing to do. And everything that I have read so far said they flow alot better. But after I looked into it more that's about the only positive.

So then Ill either get some custom headers, or use the stock manifolds, and get a custom up pipe like you said.

And you said you dont have any engine management. Now this is where I am really clueless. I dont know what different types of engine management there are or the pros and cons of each. I assume its better to have it then not and I would just to be safe. So what the options? From what Iv read I have heard alot of terms like standalone, piggyback, fpr, safc but I dont know much about them

[ALL NATURAL]

Stock manifold should be fine. I upgraded mine before I did the turbo setup because I wanted the boxer rumble but the turbo setup will add some rumble to your ride.

I will get engine managment eventually when I build my motor up for more boost. Obviously if I had it tuned at the moment it would run even better and pull even stronger but I have so much on my plate right now that I'm not willing to drop that much money on something I won't be driving for awhile.
I would recommend getting it professionally tuned if that is an option. Being that you are in Oregon there should be plenty of tuners around the state I would think. Call up some of the shops and ask them what kind of engine management they work with and are trained to tune on. Greddy E-manage blue and ultimate are two very good and popular piggy-pack systems. FPR and SAFC can only do so much, they are very limited. Satndalone systems can be very tricky and cost a couple thousand or more.
If I decide to try my hand at tuning my car myself I will probably go with the Perfect Power 6 since it has proven software and can be found for $300 or less at times.
You will need a wideband air/fuel gauge also for tuning so you know if the car is running too rich or too lean.

[impreza_GC8]

I thought there was just a thread on here about this. I've got a turbo ej25 hybrid but it's using ej22t crank and rods. I would take apart your ej22 and put in some 22t internals at least, but of course you don't have to. Engine management is most important, I'm currently using an obd1 ej22t ecu but I have a Megasquirt waiting to be installed. The car will run a thousand times better with a quality tune. I'm running 11 psi currently and put down 170 whp and 200 wtq at 80% throttle. I don't go full throttle bc the car is so rich it doesn't make more power wide open. With a tune I'm thinking 230 whp and 250 wtq is doable without much more boost than I already run.

[ALL NATURAL]

This guy is selling a Subachad up pipe and downpipe. They aren't made anymore and they will clear your crossmember if you don't want to get a custom one made. They are made for 1.8/2.2/2.5 NAs that go turbo.

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f178/t145850 ... -td04.html (http://www.rs25.com/forums/f178/t145850-2-5rs-t-subachad-up-down-pipes-td04.html)

[peter]

That seems like a great idea, especially because I looked into shops in the area and one that I had heard of sells custom stuff, but they want like 450 for a b series down pipe. So going there for an up pipe would be pretty spendy too. $450 for an up pipe, down pipe, turbo, and intercooler sounds pretty good to me. btw thanks for all the help

[csweston]

Wouldn't an svx swap be cheaper for the amount of power your looking into? Not trying to put any one down, i think an ej22 turbo would be sweet. I was just thinking that you can pick up an svx for $500 with a blow tranny.

[StatGSR]

^ have you done an eg33 swap? having been in the middle of one for 1.5 years. im thinking boosting my 2.2 would have been a good idea, since i could have done it in a weekend and spent about the same.

don't get me wrong, I'm sure i will love my eg33 swap when i get it running right, but there just isn't anything all that tricky to figure out adding a turbo to a ej22.

Also, eg33 swaps are not particularly reversible. with boost he could always just rip it out, and sell the car as a 2.2.

[ALL NATURAL]

^^+1090897543543

I got my turbo kit together and had it all installed in 2 days. Really, it only took about 8hrs total and that was me doing everything myself and then driving it 20minutes to my buddy's house and him welding the exhaust on it.

SVX swaps involve wiring, cutting of the radiator support and bumper beam plus welding in new brackets for the radiator plus a bunch of other things. (at least into an impreza)

[peter]

All the added time and difficulty is what turned me away from a wrx swap. This is my daily driver so I cant have it down long. The simplicity of being able to put on a turbo this easily is great. Plus the fact that unless i put more parts and money into an svx motor this should still make more power. And just finding the motor around here could be a challenge in itself

and StatGSR I applaud the creativity of your swap, that should be pretty nice when its done. I would love to do a really unique swap, but I think having a turbo'd legacy is unique enough for me, and quite the sleeper. I would love to be able to beat almost anyone in the local ricer club I guess you could call it.

[StatGSR]

I'm not trying to make it sound like a eg33 swap is anything crazy (i have been extremely lazy about it, and really just have some wiring gremlins i need to track down, which is not something I feel comfortable doing alone), its just much harder to have all the right parts at the same time to hammer it out quickly, as everybody has different solutions to making it work. In reality, we probably only have about 30 hours into what has been done so far (excluding time for the harness merge that i didn't do).

[peter]

I know what you mean. It doesn't seem incredibly difficult just time consuming and wiring troubles.
I'll have enough to do for myself with a transmission swap. Whenever I get around to that lol.

[ALL NATURAL]

I am still running my stock 2.2 tranny with the original clutch with around 150,000 miles on it. I have put it through many autoX days and spirited driving...just can't launch it which I have no problem with.
Upgrading my tranny is on the list though.

[peter]

I'm not worried about it not being able to hold up to the power, I just want a 5 speed and not this 4eat crap anymore

[ALL NATURAL]

Ahh sorry, I didn't realize you had a 4eat.

[96legacyL]

I dont want to mess with custom down pipes and cutting the cross member. So i wanted to put the turbo after the headers. But idk how it would work with MAF. Idk if moving it far from were its originally was will mess it up. Or would it not even work.

[StatGSR]

^ ??? MAF still goes between the turbo and air filter.

attaching the turbo after the stock header still requires a custom up pipe and down pipe, obviously does not require the turbo cross member or cutting the cross member.

[chuckthefuk]

Hmmmm how would this combo sound?

91' EJ22T short block (BC SS 91'-94)
95' EJ22 dual port heads (Impreza)
98' EJ22E intake manifold / sensors / etc..
Turbo cross-member (BC SS / JDM GC / USDM WRX / etc..)
02'+ WRX stock bolt-ons (turbo manifold/upipe/downpipe/turbo/intercooler/etc,,)
Some sort of engine management.

No cutting.. no fabrication.. just bolt on with some massaging when needed..
-Chuck

[mycargoesvroom]

Hmmmm how would this combo sound?

91' EJ22T short block (BC SS 91'-94)
95' EJ22 dual port heads (Impreza)
98' EJ22E intake manifold / sensors / etc..
Turbo cross-member (BC SS / JDM GC / USDM WRX / etc..)
02'+ WRX stock bolt-ons (turbo manifold/upipe/downpipe/turbo/intercooler/etc,,)
Some sort of engine management.

No cutting.. no fabrication.. just bolt on with some massaging when needed..
-Chuck

Sounds like a lot of fun for a little bit of work!

[anothernord]

Hmmmm how would this combo sound?

91' EJ22T short block (BC SS 91'-94)
95' EJ22 dual port heads (Impreza)
98' EJ22E intake manifold / sensors / etc..
Turbo cross-member (BC SS / JDM GC / USDM WRX / etc..)
02'+ WRX stock bolt-ons (turbo manifold/upipe/downpipe/turbo/intercooler/etc,,)
Some sort of engine management.

No cutting.. no fabrication.. just bolt on with some massaging when needed..
-Chuck

Sort of, the IACV gets in the way and should be swapped, the intercooler will hit the firewall, the throttle body has to be shortened, the Y-pipe has to be modified, it's all sorts of work.

[96legacyL]

So how much boost could the 2.2 handle with out a FPR and SAFC or piggybacK? i know it needs tuning but how much could u run without that.

[anothernord]

So how much boost could the 2.2 handle with out a FPR and SAFC or piggybacK? i know it needs tuning but how much could u run without that.

By "handle", do you mean running out of fuel because of injector and fueling limitations, or actual engine failure? Those are the questions you should be asking yourself. If you can get it enough fuel, and keep it from detonating, you can run as much boost as you want, until the rods or something snap because they physically can't withstand the being exerted on it.

You could run 5 PSI without any other adjustments with 91 octane, and good intercooling, (if it's a MAF-based 2.2) but don't expect the setup to be fun for long. You'll get greedy with boost, and want more. Just start of right with a good piggyback, larger injectors, and a good fuel pump.

[96legacyL]

Can we swap injectors with a wrx without having to modify anything and what about their fuel pump. Also do you know the limit of boost our sensors could read before we have to change em out.

[Garrison]

If you swap injectors you're looking at aftermarket piggy-back fuel management. Apexi SAFC & wideband o2 at minimum.

[anothernord]

Do some more searching here and on RS2.5.com. There is a TON of research that must be done before you attempt this.

[96legacyL]

Whats a good wideband O2 brand

[chuckthefuk]

http://www.aemelectronics.com/wideband- ... -gauge-25/ (http://www.aemelectronics.com/wideband-air-fuel-systems-15/digital-wideband-air-fuel-gauge-25/)

[96legacyL]

thanks. I wanna go fmic does anybody know what size fits or know what am i suppose to measure to figure out what i can fit under there. Also know were i can tap my 2.2 for oil for the turbo.

[anothernord]

I prefer the Innovate LC-1, since it has a programmable outputs and cool features like that.

Also, you need to search around, there's threads on here that show you what to do. (hint: DIY forum) :cool:

[SeriousSubaru]

sooooo I bought all the parts and took my car to the shop to get a custom uppipe made...
Apparently my 2006 wrx downpipe wont fit in the 1998 legacy chassis.
This doesn't seem to add up to me since I have seen numerous wrx/sti swaps into these chassis.
Anybody run into a problem?

[anothernord]

Well, it fits if you're using a stock location turbo, otherwise, it will probably have to be cut up and re-welded.

[SeriousSubaru]

yeah I am using the stock location...

[anothernord]

So the turbo bolts to an OEM header and up-pipe? If you use ALL OEM turbo parts, the hanger for the downpipe will line up. But more information other than, "it doesn't fit" would be helpful.

[SeriousSubaru]

So the turbo bolts to an OEM header and up-pipe? If you use ALL OEM turbo parts, the hanger for the downpipe will line up. But more information other than, "it doesn't fit" would be helpful.
the turbo is going to be bolted to the block in the stock location using a wrx turbo bracket. they get to figure out how to shoehorn an uppipe on it. They called me and said it didn't look like the downpipe I provided (2006 wrx) was going to fit my chassis. Thats where I got confused. I didn't know if there is anything unique about our firewalls vs the impreza that would cause a problem

[anothernord]

I see. Well yes. The shop is on crack; the hangar off the transmission should meet right up. The only discrepancy could be the mounts the bolt to the transmission. But if that's the case, they can just be cut off. But I have personally run a stock WRX downpipe on my own Legacy, and it fit perfectly. Unless the 06 downpipe is somehow different (I would not believe that they're different).

[nikolaus.conrad]

Hey there! Just thought I'd throw this out there because I'm looking into doing this (Provided it will work) Because the single exhaust port cylinder head doesn't flow well, Could you take the dual exhaust port heads from a 1990 to 1994 Legacy with a 2.2? And stick it on a later 2.2? Is there going to be problems being that they would be from an OBD1 car? Or did Subaru make internal changes that won't make it fit? Sorry if this doesn't make sense, It's 5:45AM here on the East coast and I still need to go to sleep. Insomnia is a B$%^&

[susiemk]

^ The dual port heads will work nicely with PI 2.2ls (small v-covers, finned & say 16v &/or subaru on them, look like 1.8l v-covers) but will require an intake manifold swap & general headaches on a PII 2.2l (2.5l sohc v-covers).

I have a set of Turbo Legacy ej22t heads, Impreza LX Dual port 2.2l NA heads, & non overheated 2.5l DOHC heads / intake manifold available in NY if you need them.

Note the DOHC 2.5l heads have the same CC combustion chamber (46cc I believe) as 2.2l heads so CR stays the same as stcok if used with a HG that is stock thickness.

[susiemk]

Now I have searched the forums and have found out some info on this, but alot of answers are conflicting. Some say boosting an EJ22 should not be done, itll just blow up, and others say 5 lbs of boost will be safe, others say 8-10 would be okay. So what is the final verdict, safe or no? And I have looked into the supercharger build, that does grab my interest. So with that in mind, assuming a turbo'd EJ22 is safe, what would be a cheaper, more reliable, and easier set up? And is the power gained enough to justify the cost and risks of boosting this motor?

BTW EJ22E from a 98 Legacy L

And I hate to sound like the guy always asking questions, but I really want to learn all I can, and I would rather be the annoying guy asking a bunch of questions then not learning anything lol

Search for abest-10's ej22e turbo conversion on RS25.com
I gave moral support/pointers via internet on his project which basically ran the same as a ej22t swap.
He basically used my MAP 2.2L parts list (which quite a few MAP 2.2 boosters have used as well) to get everything together with the 2 differences being
1. No voltage clamp
2. FMU ratio is 8:1 for MAF cars / TD04 sized turbo

As I state in my MAP PII 2.2l turbo parts list thread on RS25.com I suggest 5psi because it will net you about 50WHP, forgive small mistakes, & not kill reliability - You can boost higher but you have to know what your doing or you will blow your 2.2l...

My OBS
- Ripped all of the teeth off of 2nd gear in a stock PII tranny within 3 weeks of boost!
- Has been boosted since 2004
- Is a 100% stock ej222 Longblock - no cams, NO E/M, no porting & still passes OBDII Inspection
- Currently runs the 1/4 mile in 13.16s @ 104.70MPH ( only 3 passes this year on last day & hour track was open - do or die)
- Has the potential to hit the 12's in its current state of tune
- Ran a best 1/4 mile time of 13.87 @ 96.96MPH Couple of years ago (3 strip passes that year)
- Ran a best 1/4 mile time of 13.31 @ 100.88MPH last year (ran total of 5 passes on track last year 3 x 13.3's 2 poor launch passes 13.5's)
- So 104.70MPH in my wagon with my tranny/gearing /weight combo should be a 12.82 or 12.84 1/4mile depending on which year you compare it to - I'd be happy with a 12.99 But shifting into 5th gear to complete the 1/4 mile is my weakness

[MarkSubi]

I definitely need to read this thread all the way through but hell yes if I could boost or do something to make my 2.2 more powerfull then hell yes!! :smt023

[lord flashheart]

I say don't listen to anyone who hasn't done it or at least has experience in the subject. The 22 is pretty boost friendly. But 10 pounds is a death ticket. It might be ok for a few days or weeks but the N/A timing and the compression will be the killer. With the right management and fuel the 22 can make good power. But I think someone mentioned b4 the EJ25d heads is a good idea cuz of flow, cams, and compression. For example my buddy has a EJ22t on 13lbs of boost but I still out run him on 5 because of the volumetric efficency of my engine is way better. Plus with the 99+ EJ22 the dish is different so u get like 9:1. That's what I did and have beat, 3 wrxs, a FXT, gc8 rss, quatro turbos, 09 civic Si. Etc.

[susiemk]

A set of Big CC Phase I DOHC Turbo heads/intake combo should actually be a KILLER SET-UP on a PI MAF 2.2l N/A shortblock...

The bigger combustion chamber of old school EJ20G heads for example should result in a compression ratio in the high 8:1 range (about 8.8:1) which is perfect for boost.
+
PI DOHC WRX / Legacy heads/intake will start right up with the stock sohc ej22 MAF ecu (using all of the ej22 electronics (injectors, MAF, TPS, IAC (turbo IAC will also work if it plugs into the ej22 plug), etc, etc, etc..)!
+
The PI DOHC Turbo heads flow MUCH better than dohc 2.5l heads - the ports are basically PI DOHC gasket matched as casted!

I wanted to do this to my '94 Legacy SS (oem with ej22t) but I was satisfied with the performance of a 60,000 EJ20G with all of the supporting mods (FMIC, 3" TBE, Methanol injection, Intake, Walbro, big injectors) so I never got this done.
To take full advantage of the

[susiemk]

I say don't listen to anyone who hasn't done it or at least has experience in the subject. The 22 is pretty boost friendly. But 10 pounds is a death ticket. It might be ok for a few days or weeks but the N/A timing and the compression will be the killer. With the right management and fuel the 22 can make good power. But I think someone mentioned b4 the EJ25d heads is a good idea cuz of flow, cams, and compression. For example my buddy has a EJ22t on 13lbs of boost but I still out run him on 5 because of the volumetric efficency of my engine is way better. Plus with the 99+ EJ22 the dish is different so u get like 9:1. That's what I did and have beat, 3 wrxs, a FXT, gc8 rss, quatro turbos, 09 civic Si. Etc.

I also have a big list of "beat cars" including STi's, S2000's (2.0 & 2.2l (S2200?)), RX7 Turbos, & quite a few V8 Mustangs/Impalas.

The MAP ej22's have 10:1 CR which basically makes them super efficient with a tiny bit of boost -I get over 33MPGs on the HW with my Wagon & averaged about 33.4 MPG's on a 161.25 mile trip to the dragstrip & back home including the 3 drag runs!
Old school import drag guys from PR say that boost on high compression is about the same as double that boost level on a low cr engine everything else being equal.

I do not suggest running more than 5psi for the average person because 1 mistake will result in blowing the engine & 40-50 WHP is actually a big jump in performance from stock.

A guy on RS25 with a MAP 2.2l Legacy that used my MAP 2.2l Turbo Conversion Parts list cracked a piston running 8.5-9psi when he ran out of "fueling" - 1 mistake = broken engine...

[lord flashheart]

A set of Big CC Phase I DOHC Turbo heads/intake combo should actually be a KILLER SET-UP on a PI MAF 2.2l N/A shortblock...

The bigger combustion chamber of old school EJ20G heads for example should result in a compression ratio in the high 8:1 range (about 8.8:1) which is perfect for boost.
+
PI DOHC WRX / Legacy heads/intake will start right up with the stock sohc ej22 MAF ecu (using all of the ej22 electronics (injectors, MAF, TPS, IAC (turbo IAC will also work if it plugs into the ej22 plug), etc, etc, etc..)!
+
The PI DOHC Turbo heads flow MUCH better than dohc 2.5l heads - the ports are basically PI DOHC gasket matched as casted!

I wanted to do this to my '94 Legacy SS (oem with ej22t) but I was satisfied with the performance of a 60,000 EJ20G with all of the supporting mods (FMIC, 3" TBE, Methanol injection, Intake, Walbro, big injectors) so I never got this done.
To take full advantage of the

1)yes.Ej22, with DOHC heads is a great option for turboing. infact the 99 EJ22 has 2 sets of valve reliefs, that match up perfectly to the EJ205 heads.. this is what i have been saying for along time. i know because... thats what has been under my hood for almost a year now.

2) its hard to know what your talking about because you say phase 1 phase 2 blah blah blah... please use engine codes.. EJ25D, EJ222, EJ205, EJ20G. etc.

3) where are your flowbench numbers? because the ones ive seen, say the EJ20G and EJ25D are the same.
i have yet to find any information that disproves that the EJ25D hydraulic (1996) is the same casting as the EJ20G. the mechanical EJ25D is the same casting as the EJ20K.

4) are you saying that you wanted to do it but never did?

5) we know that boost does high compression, but i doubt its twice as efficent on hi-comp. also, N/A engine management also has more advanced timing than a turbo car. which is does play a part in the performace..

6) psi is an irrelevant. every engine has a different volumetric efficencey. 7.5 psi on EJ25D heads is comparable to 11 psi on EJ22T heads
also if you set your car up properly you can run it closer to the 'edge' ie,colder spark plugs, bigger intercooler, higher octane fuel.etc.

7 and lastly, when you say "cracked a piston" im assuming you mean it broke a ring landing? the term is 'lean'. however detonation (pre-ignition) doesnt mean that he was lean. it could have been the fact that he was 9 pounds on 10:1, or the timing being way too advaced for boost... tipically that would require E85, 106+ octane, meth etc. becasue thats compressing the fuel too much without detonation.

[nikolaus.conrad]

Is there any way to adjust the timing on the 22 to make it more adaptable for boost?

[susiemk]

1)yes.Ej22, with DOHC heads is a great option for turboing. infact the 99 EJ22 has 2 sets of valve reliefs, that match up perfectly to the EJ205 heads.. this is what i have been saying for along time. i know because... thats what has been under my hood for almost a year now.

2) its hard to know what your talking about because you say phase 1 phase 2 blah blah blah... please use engine codes.. EJ25D, EJ222, EJ205, EJ20G. etc.

3) where are your flowbench numbers? because the ones ive seen, say the EJ20G and EJ25D are the same.
i have yet to find any information that disproves that the EJ25D hydraulic (1996) is the same casting as the EJ20G. the mechanical EJ25D is the same casting as the EJ20K.

4) are you saying that you wanted to do it but never did?

5) we know that boost does high compression, but i doubt its twice as efficent on hi-comp. also, N/A engine management also has more advanced timing than a turbo car. which is does play a part in the performace..

6) psi is an irrelevant. every engine has a different volumetric efficencey. 7.5 psi on EJ25D heads is comparable to 11 psi on EJ22T heads
also if you set your car up properly you can run it closer to the 'edge' ie,colder spark plugs, bigger intercooler, higher octane fuel.etc.

7 and lastly, when you say "cracked a piston" im assuming you mean it broke a ring landing? the term is 'lean'. however detonation (pre-ignition) doesnt mean that he was lean. it could have been the fact that he was 9 pounds on 10:1, or the timing being way too advaced for boost... tipically that would require E85, 106+ octane, meth etc. becasue thats compressing the fuel too much without detonation.

0. Background on Myself
- I've done over 16 N/A to turbo conversions over the past 14 years
- My EJ222 1999 OBS is my first Subaru purchased & turbo'd with leftover DSM parts in early 2004 & still runs today - 8 Years Later on a stock EJ222 Longblock
- I set-up the turbo system & program the ECU for a friend's 2 Drag cars 1 = 9.97s Best 1/4 mile time other has run a best of 8.68s in the 1/4.

1. Not familiar with you or what you have said in the past if we say similar things - OK
What Car are you running EJ205 heads with a EJ222 shortblok on?
What EM are you using?

2. Subaru Engines 101
Phase I Engines have a LETTER as the last digit of the engine code (ej22e, EJ20G), have a #3 Thrust Bearing, Different Intake manifold bolt patterns & cam/crank timing triggers than Phase II cars

Phase II Engines have a NUMBER as the last digit of the engine code (EJ222, EJ207), have a #5 thrust bearing, & other differences listed above

3. No Numbers BUT I was lucky enough to have a Great JDM Importer connection so I dealt with more than my fair share of these engines & trannys for a hobby'ist.
I've taken apart Every Turbo JDM PI EJ20 & many USDM N/A engine & like to compare the differences between the engines.

If you just "research & regurgitate" then its true folks say the EJ25 & EJ20 heads are the same - which is not really true as the Turbo EJ20 HEads will have gasket or close to gasket matched intake ports on the head & manifold.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13417&start=120 (https://sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13417&start=120)

4. I did the sohc ej22t to EJ20G conversion on my '94 Legacy SS - the ej22t has great build potential but is really a slow set-up stock.
SO the PI DOHC Turbo EJ20 will run on a SOHC ECU is from personal experience - the car runs PERFECTLY.
I did not get to do a ej22e / PI EJ20 Turbo head hybird as I was content with the way the EJ20G ran in the LSS.
I sold the EJ20R heads & intake manifold I had sitting in the garage to a member of legacy central who used them on a DOHC ej22t 6-speed build, but I still have the ej22e block laying around my garage & a V2 STi RA EJ20G in my storage area waiting for a build...

5. You are taking things too literally this is a saying that Guys made up over 20 years ago when they realized that high CR "low" boost set-ups ran the same as high boost low CR set-ups.

They say a given amount of boost on a high CR set-up performs similarly to a double that boost on a low CR set-up - which in the case of the ej22e vs the ej22t on the same turbo in the same Model cars is true (a couple of friends had a ej22e turbo conversion vs a ej22t swap shootout @ the track & they ran basically dead even with the ej22e running 1/2 the boost) - Observation but there is video on RS25...

6. PSI is EVERYTHING (on a given turbo).
Example I went to the dyno with a friends 13b Drag car which made 403WHP @ about 11,000 RPMS (peripheral ported) @ 10psi of boost from a GT45R
Same car made 533WHP on 1/2 pulls as I ran out of injector @ about 6000RPMS - Not even in the powerband of this engine (7000-12000RPMS) the car made MORE power Because it was running MORE BOOST 20psi to be exact.

With 10PSI the car could run 9.99's in the 1/4 mile @ about 133MPH, with 24PSI it ran 8.79 @ 157MPH - Boost MATTERS!

What matters MORE than PSI when you compare different turbos is CFM of COMPRESSED Air FLowed by the turbo.
More CFM = More power so 13psi from a VF11 (small low CFM turbo) will result in less CFM of compressed air than 3 psi out of a GT45R (high CFM turbo).

Do you have dyno # of the same shortblock, with the same turbo, same intercooler, same fuel pump, same tranmission, same final drive, same oil in everything oiled, same size tires, performed on the same dyno, tested in the same temperature/humidity/b-pressure to prove your 7.5 on dohc = 11psi on a sohc?

7. Do the ringlands just fall off or does they crack/fracture/break off of the rest of the piston?
Detonation is not the same as preignition so you should not use them as if they are 1 & the same - research...

Lean condition, overadvanced timing can result in detonation - in the example I used which was a REAL WOLRD EXAMPLE the guy ran out of Methanol & still ran High boost so he broke his engine - boost, timing, & fueling had a fight & the engine lost.

[susiemk]

Forgive my posts if some letter C's are missing - my 2yo did a number on that key specifically...

[susiemk]

I made this post when I was ready to go with a fully built ej22t shortblock run 30psi all the time & share an easy parts list & some pointer with the rest of the EJ222 / ej22e world based on my 5 years of experience boosting & daily driving the EJ222 (at the time of the first post) - funny thing is I got sooo hooked on trying to eek out every bit I could from the stock EJ222 that its still in my wagon...

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f7/t107798-p ... -list.html (http://www.rs25.com/forums/f7/t107798-phase-ii-2-2l-map-turbo-conversion-parts-list.html)

[susiemk]

Not sure if it will come up but this is WISECO's Piston chart that has some good info.

http://www.wiseco.com/Catalogs/SportCom ... Toyota.pdf (http://www.wiseco.com/Catalogs/SportCompact/SubaruToyota.pdf)

Note:
- EJ25 & ej22t's both have head CC's of 46.6CC's (Last time I looked @ this is when I was seeing if they made standard bore off the shelf pistons for the ej22t (they didn't so I got custom pistons made with my own CR spec for my built ej22t block ) back in 2009 so I was .6 cc off - getting old...
- According to the entire planet ej22e & ej22t head cc's are the same with NA head having different cams, roller rockers & 1mm bigger exhaust valves

So EJ25 DOHC heads on a ej22 block should give the SAME COMPRESSION AS STOCK if used with a OEM 2.2l thickness HG.

PI WRX's have bigger CC heads so one can lower compression with these (playing with HG thickness lets you fine tune CR) & take advantage of their BIG PORTS with MORE BOOST...

[lord flashheart]

guy. no. the EJ22t and EJ22e has a head volume of like 39ccs. the Ej25D/EJ20G hydraulic has 53ccs. the Ej25D mechanical has 46cc. I CHECKED IT TODAY. YES I CC'D THEM LESS THAN 12HOURS AGO. (now anytime u cc heads you have to leave a small margin of error and some heads have been decked so i usually give like 5%)
wiseco does have off the shelf pistons for the EJ22T. i have a set on my shelf right this second. they have for years.
i dont know where on planet earth you are gettting some of your information but the 1990-1998 ej22 valves are the same size as the EJ22T, the flippin part number is the same. the 99 and up Ej22 did have bigger valves. but they are completely different, they are closer to the EJ251 heads than the EJ22T heads.. as hell yes i can prove it.
and the head gasket thicknes difference is like 3ccs. not gonna change anything.


again with the phase one phase two shit.
you realize there was 7 different heads on a WRX?
EJ20G hydraulic rocker HLA
EJ20G bucket HLA
EJ20G shim over bucket
EJ20K shimless bucket
EJ205 shimless bucket
EJ205 AVCS
EJ255 cast B25

if your talking about the EJ20G, 1 they have shitty valve train. 2 expensive to replace parts on. 3 they flow the same as EJ25D heads. dont believe me? buy a fucking flow bench.

if your talking about EJ205, yes they flow better. now one is arguing that. but they are expensive to replace, they use a different intake pattern, which means u need a different manifold which means... you guessed it... the OEM engine managment wont work on that manifold. they use completlely different IACV, Injectors, emissions equiptment, etc.

people post their ignorant shit, based on something they mis-understood, which gets spread as bad info. people in the subaru community are especially bad when it comes to that.

[prodriver1]

if you had a 2.2 in good condition how much turbo could you get for say $600. mostly looking for reliability and low end power not high boost.

[Tinobag]

VF39?

If I'm swapping in a 22 into my GT which has the 25 ECU and harness, do I need to change the engine harness and/or ECU? or is that all just plug and play?

[anothernord]

TD04 would be best, but that would be a pretty tight budget. I would save at least $800 to get yourself a setup you'll be happy with.

[Tinobag]

I now know why you said a TD-04 would be best. I went and bought a VF-14. Now I can't find any flanges for the up and down pipes that look like they will fit.. :smt013

[nikolaus.conrad]

What exhaust diameter would one recommend for turbo-ing an EJ22 with a VF11? Or a TD04?

[GTDrifter]

3 inch is the best for turbo. at least from what I hear

[grayguy]

With a small setup like that 2.5 is plenty.

[lord flashheart]

3 inch is ideal for engines UP TO 300-400HP, regardless of turbo size, for an engine for about 200HP i would say 2.5 to 2.75 inches would get the job done but i believe 3 inch w/ belmouth down pipe would be prime for this application.

[nikolaus.conrad]

Do you think there will be enough back pressure for a 3" exhaust diameter? I think that 2.5" would be perfect.

[chuckthefuk]

How much boost?

[lord flashheart]

i had a talk with a co-worker about this, on 4 stroke engines back pressure is no where near as important as back pressure on a 2 stroke, turbos make plenty of back pressure for engines. the pipe diameter pre-turbo is way more important than post turbo. engines are a air pump, the more you can get out the more you can get in, turbos tipically make 1.45 lbs of back pressure for every 1lb of boost pressure. the closer you can get to 1 to 1 the better. i promise 3 inch is ideal.

[nikolaus.conrad]

How much boost?
5lbs maximum, or less

[nikolaus.conrad]

i had a talk with a co-worker about this, on 4 stroke engines back pressure is no where near as important as back pressure on a 2 stroke, turbos make plenty of back pressure for engines. the pipe diameter pre-turbo is way more important than post turbo. engines are a air pump, the more you can get out the more you can get in, turbos tipically make 1.45 lbs of back pressure for every 1lb of boost pressure. the closer you can get to 1 to 1 the better. i promise 3 inch is ideal.
Makes sense, I'll keep an eye open for a 3" WRX exhaust kit on Ebay or something. lol

[chuckthefuk]

2.5" ... 4 psi wont generate enough boost to require 3" ... You wont be making 200 hp thats for sure.. maybe 170..

[Garrison]

i ran 3" piping on my setup and found it unnecessary; boost/torque wasn't hampered all that much with a 2.5" silencer I had installed afterward. Next time I go turbo I'm going to buy an 2.5" OBX twin-loop and run that from a 3" bellmouth down-pipe, cherry-bomb resonator; and HFC, pinching it from 3" to 2.5" at the exhaust canister. I'm not breaking 300whp; I like my oem 5-speed.


3" produces SO MUCH DRONE.... :smt021

[lord flashheart]

2.5" ... 4 psi wont generate enough boost to require 3" ... You wont be making 200 hp thats for sure.. maybe 170..

i was basing 200hp on the size of injector. on 100% duty cycle, according to witchhunter injector calculator, the injectors are good for 207chp iirc.
you are right. but 'require' and 'ideal' are 2 different things.


i ran 3" piping on my setup and found it unnecessary; boost/torque wasn't hampered all that much with a 2.5" silencer I had installed afterward. Next time I go turbo I'm going to buy an 2.5" OBX twin-loop and run that from a 3" bellmouth down-pipe, cherry-bomb resonator; and HFC, pinching it from 3" to 2.5" at the exhaust canister. I'm not breaking 300whp; I like my oem 5-speed.


3" produces SO MUCH DRONE.... :smt021

i say 3 inch is "ideal"... for performance. all the engine performance science articles have basically stated that 3inch strait pipe post turbo is ideal for performance. obviously we cant do that on our cars becasue we have other things to consider such as, noise ordenence, emissions, budget size etc. will you ever see a difference between 2.5 and 3? no. but i thought we were talking best for performance. like i said before, engines are air pumps, horsepower is a by product. the more air you can get out, the more you can get in. our engines need such a small amount of back pressure its rediculous. the turbocharger will accomidate that minimal need for back pressure. after the turbo you basically want it gone, but if you go too big the exhaust gases tipically cool condensing the gases, making moving the gases difficult. almost like your exhaust pipe is acting as a high barometric enviroment.
its kinda a surge vs. choking effect.

take a straw, a garden hose, and a rain gutter pipe. blow thru the straw as hard as you can. its easy to move the air in the straw, but there is too much volume to get thru the straw.
now take a garden hose blow thru it. it moves a good of volume but isnt hard to move it.
now take the rain gutter. its super easy to blow into it, but its too big to move the volume of the pipe.

its a difficult thing to explain but i am doing my best.
like i said, i am refering to best for performance and nothing else.

also i doubt you will break 200whp. also i doubt the trans will handle more than 220whp.
hp requires fuel, so unless you are going to a FMU/rising rate regulator, or bigger injectors + piggy back
those injectors in your car are good for about 160-170 whp. maybe a bit more depending on the dyno.

[EJ22D]

Boosting an EJ22 would be this:
EJ22T (hard to find but worth every penny) or EJ22E (the cheap way out).
97-99 EJ25D heads (chambers are enclosed in the bore) & they have room to expand on in the porting department (you can even cut/grind the chambers to match the bore exactly).
EJ20K/R cams (after porting).
Upgraded valvetrain.
22T water pump.
11mm oil pump or more depending on the size of the turbocharger.
Bigger injectors.
Better fuel pump.
Piggyback.
I'm not going to post that much at the moment but there is much more.
Btw, if you boost an EJ22 without rebuilding it, you will be treading into unknown territory in terms of reliability but if you really wanted to do it, why not wring as much power out of the engine as you could without approaching its limits? I've seen junkyard EJ22Es just thrown into WRXs & go with no problems. I've also seen 3 of them blow up because they were run too lean. Disintegrated pistons will be a guarantee if tuning is not involved. Either that or snapped rods...

[lord flashheart]

I personally dont like the 22T but to each thier own.
The reason they run lean is because when you change the bore size you change the pressure differential that is he piston. This changes the VE. So when the car is warmed up anf goes into closed loop the coml will adapt up to 20% of the change. But in open loop it ignores the afr.

Also it come down to rpm as well. High rpm is much harder on rods then boost. Where as the 22 is desinged to go to 5900 and the wrx and 25 go to 6500 iirc

I would say 90% of the engines i have seen with a broken rod is from rpm or rod bearing failure. Not saying that it cant and doesnt happen from raw power... Just the piston is usually thr first to go.

[EJ22D]

Also it come down to rpm as well. High rpm is much harder on rods then boost. Where as the 22 is desinged to go to 5900 and the wrx and 25 go to 6500 iirc

Let's not forget the bore.
20% extra displacement means 20% extra stress on rods shared with the EJ20, which I believe, heavily contributes to the EJ22 block's internal lower rpm limits.
The EJ22 is tough but not invincible as it's reliability record gives the illusion for it to be.

[lord flashheart]

Lol indeed. But dont forget that the stroke of the 22 is shorter which eliviates stress on rods.My personal theory is that the reason they have a lower rev limit is because the heads are hydraulic lifters. Which are less than ideal since they float valves so easily.

I agree, the 22 is a phonominal engine and probably the most reliable that subaru ever built but they are not the best power plant.

Lol on a couple occasions when i was setting up my car i accidently boosted my 22/25 north of 11 lbs.