New ride, New problems to deal with.

[Perkul8r]

So, I am in the process of picking up a 1997 Outback wagon with the 2.5 DOHC and auto trans. I am getting the car cheap cause the lady said it needs a head gasket. It does have 229,000 miles on it. But i am thinking that there may be something else wrong with it.

Heres the story:
Owner took the car in to the dealer cause it was not getting heat inside the cabin. They said she should have the rad flushed. So she did. Afterwards, still no heat in the cabin. Returned to the dealer, they than told her it needed head gaskets.

My findings so far on the car:
Car is not burning antifreeze. Oil is still clean and shows no signs of coolant leaking into it. Rad fluid is also clean. And it is not leaking around the head area. Car does not over heat. Runs and drives fine. I have not driven the car yet. Just going off what she told me. But when i did look at the car, she had it running and it was not overheating, actually the gauge was between half and quarter way up from cold.

Couple friends think its something with the heater core itself, possible air in the coolant system from rad being flushed, maybe even a bad thermostat.

Just wondering if anyone has any other ideas that it could be? I am not sure where to start exactly, want to try and get it good and driving that way we can have a second vehicle.

Any help is appreciated.
Thanks.

[Kiwi GT]

Thermostats are cheap enough. Throw a new one in and see how it goes.

[ProjectLGT97]

Idk what causing the problem but it doesn't sound like head gaskets

[Perkul8r]

Ya, the more i look into it and think about it i am doubting the headgaskets. It should be showing some signs or coolant burning or mixing with oil if it was the head gaskets.

I have been doing some looking over at SubaruOutback.org and there is another guy with a 2000 outback having the same problem.

Now if only i had the car here to look at. I dont get to pick it up till friday.

[Perkul8r]

But am i right in thinking its not a head gasket cause its not burning it and its not leaking into the oil?

[ShadowGT]

But am i right in thinking its not a head gasket cause its not burning it and its not leaking into the oil?

You would be correct at least in my experience.

[Kiwi GT]

It doesn't need to be burning coolant to be a leaking head gasket. At operating pressure, the cylinder, at minimum, is around 200psi, whereas coolant pressure is only around 15psi. For coolant to leak into the cylinder, there needs to be a leak either big enough to drop compression and stop combustion, or a leak (read crack) in the cylinder head where there is no combustion pressures.

[Perkul8r]

Well, every car i have ever seen a head gasket go out in has burned it right away or had it mixed into the oil. And this car has neither of those symptoms. But i do see what you are talking about with the pressure inside the cylinder being more than what the coolant system is at.

I have been doing some checking and it says that one of the symptoms of bad hg's is bubbling in the overflow tank. Would you see that at that radiator cap also? And if it does turn out to be head gaskets, can they be changed with the motor in the car? Its looks really tight in there. I dont have an engine stand, or engine hoist, so working with the motor in the car seems to be my only option right now.

Dam i wish i had the car here to check it out. I dont get to pick it up till friday.

[Huffer]

If it's not getting heat in the cabin, then I would try for burping the coolant system. Air bubbles can get caught in the oddest places - and if the thermostat isn't pegging high, but is reading somewhat correctly, then I doubt you have a HG problem.

You may just get the deal of the year if it's just a bubble in the coolant.

[ShadowGT]

That would be awesome. When I replaced my radiator my car was overheating a little and it was because of a air pockets. I forgot to burp the system.

[Perkul8r]

Ok. So now i am a little more worried. lol. Talked to the lady today about the car, and said that it did overheat a little after the rad was flushed. But that could be air in the system still. She said it didn't get really hot, just a little over normal so she would stop and let it cool down.

She also said that when she took it in, the dealership told her it had less coolant in it than when it left after the rad flush. And it was low when i looked at it.

Could that happen with an air bubble still? Have the coolant level go down a bit if the bubble worked its way out after she drove it.

Thanks for all the help on this.

[Kiwi GT]

I say worry about it when you get the car. You can't see what's going on until you get it anyway. Bank on worse case scenario, but don't let it blind you to other possibilities.

[Perkul8r]

Good point. I plan on switching timing belt and stuff on it anyway-if it hasn't been done yet-and taking the heads off if needed wouldn't be that much more.

I guess i will see on friday what happens.

[Perkul8r]

Well, i ended up stopping at Subaru to get a price on parts, just in case. And ended up talking to the tech that had been working on the car i am buying. Come to find out he is a guy i have done alot of work for in the past at work. And he is a great guy. BUt he gave me bad news. The car was having overheating issues, and when they were doing the last check in it, it was bubbling in the overflow and rad. So it does look like i will be replacing head gaskets.

My only question now, is it possible to do the work with the motor still in the car?

[Huffer]

Yep, difficult though. And if youre competent and doing other tune ups, you may as well pull the engine to do it.

[kevbot]

Honestly, the head gaskets typically blow at 180-200k mi. so I'd say its way past the point of leaking. Don't try and do the had gasket with the engine in the car, every thing is much easier once you get it out of the car! If you are going to rebuild, you should need to do: Head gaskets, cam seals, waterpump/thermostat, timing belt/pullys, valve cover gaskets, intake and throttle body gaskets, fuel filter, exhaust gaskets, new stainless bolts...ect. And, even after all that (likely to cost multiple thousands of dollars) there is still a good chance of your crank bearings giving out (in my experiances, once you replace almost every thing, that one thing you didn't decides to go out!)
So what I did was buy a LOW MILES motor online for $1,000- 1,800, rebuild all the things on my list above, and install it myself. Probably, cost way more than your interested, but be warned, Subarus CAN be expensive! But, before you do all that, DRIVE IT TILL IT DIES!!!

[Huffer]

Not a bad idea to buy a used motor, rebuild it and then pop it in the car when the old one dies.

Better yet, buy a used motor, and build a high compression beast. :D

[Perkul8r]

The problem with buying a used motor is i dont have that much money right now. And also i do not have an engine hoist or a engine stand right now. And to rent an engine hoist is about $75 per day here. Also, the garage i have to work in wont even fit the whole car inside. I planned on pulling the car in as much as i can and doing the tear down all in one day.

I am trying to sell my DSM to possibly get a motor. I remember the junkyard getting in an outback that was t-boned. BUt it still ran, and probably had lower miles than what my car has on it. But i have also found a rebuilt EJ22T for around $850 so i am debating on to do the engine swap right away, or just fixing the 2.5 and running for a while, while i build something else.

[ouch1011]

The heads can be pulled in the car but its not worth it if you are doing other work to it. I've done it once because the car only had stripped plug threads in 1 hole and didn't have any head gasket problems and I wasn't resealing any other parts. But the engine is really easy to pull...

BTW, while you have the engine out, put a garden hose on the heater hoses (1 at a time lol) and make sure you have pretty much no restriction to flow. That way you can rule out any heater core problems.

[Perkul8r]

Well, right now it looks as though i will be doing it with the motor in. I dont have an engine hoist, or an engine stand. And its costs $75 per day here in town to rent an engine hoist. Also the garage i have is to small to even fit the entire car in, so trying to fit the car, engine hoist and what not in there wont happen. lol. Kinda sucks.

[Huffer]

You only need the front end covered from bad weather, not the whole car. Tuck the front end in, throw some tarps from the garage down the roof, insta-tent.

But hey, GL.

[Perkul8r]

Thats what i was planning on doing. lol. I am just looking for an engine hoist to borrow right now. I dont know many people that have one. I am gonna buy an engine stand. Those aren't to bad priced.

So i plan on getting the car soon. And will be gathering parts soon. Hopefully i can sell my talon and possibly get a lower mileage motor.

Thanks for all the help guys.

[Perkul8r]

So. as of now i am looking at fixing this engine for the time being. But that being said. Is it Better to get a gasket set from Subaru or would one from like Oriellys be ok? I was gonna order it from Oriellys, only to save about $80, but was worried that they wouldn't have the newer style head gasket in the set.

If OEM is better, how can i make sure that i am getting the right gasket set. I asked the parts guy at Subaru and he acted like he had no idea they changed the gaskets ever.