exedy ff02 lightweight flywheel.. do you have one installed?

[d1giPhux]

I'm about to get all my new clutch / flywheel etc put in my car. Does anyone actually HAVE the exedy FF02 lightweight flywheel installed in their car? Does the car need to be tuned after? I'm wondering if i should bother putting a lightweight one in, or if this will cause hassle down the road and i should just go with stock. Let me know what you think. I basically dont want ANY hassle from this install, and i dont want it to shorten the life of the trans / clutch or anything else. Thanks!

[chuckthefuk]

There should be no reason why the ECU variables have to be changed in order to accommodate the light weight flywheel.

Light weight flywheels have no direct impact on the way the rotating assembly handles timing and ignition.

Their sole purpose is to reduce the weight while still keeping the stock diameter thus reducing the rotational mass. This is similar to having a smaller diameter flywheel at the same weight as your stock flywheel.

Install the flywheel and enjoy the free flowing revs.


But I would like to add... there is no way to honestly expect no wear and tear on the drive train. The fact that you can rev faster and engage your clutch at quicker speeds/rpms is punishment on its own. Driveline shock is a terrible thing even with harder bushigns, braces and mounts damage is inevitable. The tougher the drivetrain components are the more damage they will do to stock 5MT's. But this is an extreme and does not happen as quick as it sounds, if you baby the car I am sure it will last 10 years..

But in the end why upgrade it if you're going to baby it. :smt005

-Chuck

[d1giPhux]

Yeah im just worried about gettin it installed. I really dont want to cause much damage, and also, wonder how launches / stop and go traffic will be with the lighter flywheel? Its about 50% less weight then stock. 12.7lbs as opposed to 23.4lbs

I would obviously have to take lightweight crank pulley off..

[chuckthefuk]

Well there's your problem.

Your launching an AWD system.

Daily driving a L.W.F. makes driving easier since it requires less throttle to rev up. Your current mentality is related to the clutch and how heavy/sensitive it is.

-Chuck

[d1giPhux]

I guess i understand what your saying.. kind of?

Right now daily driving with the stock setup, you do have to rev up a bit more to really drive it right.

However, i would probably have to use the stock crank pulley right?

I basically just dont wanna pay like $450-500 to get all this installed only to learn i fucking hate driving it for daily driver. This is NOT a track car, its just my daily driver.

[chuckthefuk]

I don't see how the crank pulley has anything to do with it.

I know what your saying about driving it right... I have to hold the throttle for more then 1 second to get the revs to climb to 4-5k

In the end it sounds like you need a Exedy OE replacment kit includes cluch, pressure plate, flywheel and release bearing + centering tool. I've seen them online from 240-299

-Chuck

[d1giPhux]

I have the clutch kit etc.. but it did not include the flywheel. I bought this flywheel because its the most widely available one. This IS for a daily driver, but f its not going to make a huge diff.. then i'll throw it in there.

i keep thinking the lightweight crank pulley is going to make a diff. isnt that on the other side of the crank? so if there are 2 lightweight parts.. the rotating mass is gonna be hella vibrations and maybe not good for the engine? idk, like i said.. ive only researched this, have no first hand knowledge of this shit.

[chuckthefuk]

Well lets get one thing straight.. The light weight pulleys like the Group A and Perrin that do not have a harmonic dampener no rubber / no fluid in them are harmful.

So the lightweight pulley you have is pointless when used on big HP cars. But you cant even crack 200hp so I doubt any vibration from both items installed will cause you any harm.

I would go with OE replacement flywheel if you have no need for aggressive driving.
-Chuck

[d1giPhux]

Oh.. i like aggressive driving. Don't get me wrong. I just dont want it to cause too much trouble down the road. Id like this stuff to last for a while!

[chuckthefuk]

Then you should have no problem since you bought quality parts not ebay junk right?

-Chuck

[Reason]

If you are unsure, you should sell the flywheel, buy an ACT which is 13 lbs and have it installed. If you have issues remove the crank pulley for stock and you should be good. Your driving style will change with the flywheel. You will also know if your driving style has potential to damage somethig. Listen to your car and pay attention. Be one with your car young jedi lol

[d1giPhux]

You would assume.. i just dont know anything about this flywheel and how it works in the legacy. Thats why i was asking for first hand opinions, and not just heresay on what it may or may not do. I would hope the change wouldnt be TOO drastic, as they seem to sell these as the most popular ones. Anyone here actually have one?

[Reason]

If you knew you wouldn't need to ask. What's the difference in any other car? If you driven one with a flywheel expect that or a slight difference. These are questions that one would ask before buying the parts...

[mike-tracy]

I'm having trouble following this thread, must be the ADD. :grin:

I did have that flywheel in my 98 Impreza a couple years ago. There was no hassle, other than I had to relearn how to get going from a stop.
Everyone who drove my car killed it a few times before getting the hang of it. No CEL's appeared or anything else out of the ordinary, but I do remember
a slight increase in clutch chatter. I matched it with an "Exedy Heavy Duty Pressure Plate with Full Faced Organic Disc," according to my email records.
I had it in for a year before the car was involved in an accident, but I enjoyed it for that time period.

I did brakes, suspension and sway bars to that car previously, but this was my first "down and dirty" mod with it.

[d1giPhux]

nice.. glad to hear from someone who actually HAD it in their car :smt023

What is the clutch chatter you speak of? I don't think ive ever experienced that in any car ive owned / modded.

[Huffer]

Why did you buy a part before knowing what effect it will have on your daily? I understand when people buy test parts for a race car, but their daily?

If you do not like revving high to get the car to move, dont install a LWF. But you should not have any real driveability issues with a 12lb wheel, only the 9lb-er.

As has been said in other threads youve been involved in, the LWF is like taking the light crank pulley and magnifying the effect about 100 times.

Clutch chatter is usually due to uneven engagement of the clutch which is from mismatched components or poor install. Even with stock components my clutch chatter was eliminated with the install of a TSK throwout bearing kit. It protects the input shaft of the 5mt.

[d1giPhux]

I bough the LWF because when i looked up flywheels, it seems it was the only one exedy made. Also thought it would be a good upgrade over the stock. I already have to rev high to get my car to move.. not sure why, but thats how i've always driven it. So that shouldn't be a big deal. Also getting the TSK1 snout kit, so hopefully clutch chatter will be minimal. I'm just hoping all this will be an upgrade in parts, as well as something that will last me for a while. Also want something that will make driving a bit more fun, but not more of a hassle.

[02_Legacy]

I'm sure no matter how the flywheel changes the feel of driving you will get used to it with in a week. When I put a new clutch in my car it took alot less effort to push the clutch pedal down and the engagement point changed, so for a while I always pushed the clutch through the floor, and jerked a little more than usuall, but with in a week or so it felt like it never changed.
So I would do as was suggested above, get everything installed, if you get a cel or it feels to light, but the stock crank pully back on and I'm sure it will be fine.

[rougeben83]

that weight flywheel is perfect for a subaru, it'll be fine.

[d1giPhux]

good.. we'll im glad it will be a perfect match. I always thought these cars needed to be rev'ed up a bit more to really get going.. so maybe this will help out. I guess i should probably bring my stock pulley to the shop and just tell them to put it on right? No point in risking anything by running the lightweight pulley and the LWF.

Anyone ever heard of these? :

http://www.atiracing.com/products/dampe ... subaru.htm (http://www.atiracing.com/products/dampers/charts/dam-subaru.htm)

So.. is anyone else here actually running the FF02 lightweight flywheel?

[chuckthefuk]

I mentioned Harmonic Dampeners and Fluid Dampeners in my post above.

These are the real deal. ATI's version is built off the OEM design and Fluidampr unique method is to have fluid without the rubber seal between the pulley.

Both are top notch and lifetime warranty and have to be maintained after 10 years of use IIRC.

They cost a bit but good for hi-output motors.. I doubt you would need to get this IMHO.

-Chuck

[d1giPhux]

Cool thanks.. i was just wondering what the deal with them was. I thought SOA officially said that our pulleys are NOT harmonic balancers. I don't get the diff.. but I remember reading lots and back and forth about that.

Clutch slave cylinder... should i get this replaced at the same time as well? I can get a new one for like $50.. would it be a good time to get it done?

Also.. as far as exhaust gaskets go, since they are going to be dropping the trans.. which gaskets am I going to need for the exhaust? I'm just grabbing a couple last minute parts so that I can have everything for when i bring it to the shop.

Thanks.

[jey]

I am running the FF02 flywheel. Best flywheel I've ever had. Way better than both OEM and the Fidanza lightweight flywheel I had. No ill effects at all, it's in my daily driver and I love it for everything from in-traffic casual driving to track days. If you like driving stick and know how to rev-match, you will like it!

[d1giPhux]

^ Awesome! another good report to hear! Do you run the stock crank pulley with it, or LW crank pulley? Anyone else wanna chime in?

[jey]

Stock crank pulley

[Reason]

Mystery solved, luckily someone knows what they are talking about :roll:

[d1giPhux]

Cool.. i guess I'll just have the shop swap over to my stock crank pulley then, i don't wanna risk anything.

so about that slave cylinder.. should i replace that as well while im doing all this. Might as well right?

[Huffer]

Why? Is it bad, failing or falling apart?

[d1giPhux]

Nope.. but ive heard that when pulling the trans, its a good idea to get a new clutch slave cylinder.. just as extra insurance. Plus, the car has 175k on it and figured it might be a good opportunity to replace it with a new one.

[Huffer]

Sure, go for it.

[mike-tracy]

Yeah in my forester the hydraulic clutch system worked perfectly till I did a clutch job, then it all went to hell. Got a new master, slave and hose and all was perfect again. Never figured what was wrong, but I didn't want to keep messing with it since it was my DD at the time.

[d1giPhux]

We'll, just wanted to update. Got the clutch kit + FF02 Flywheel + Snout Kit + TOB + Oil Separator plate & bolts + rear main seal + slave cylinder all installed at Scottys Country Auto in Exeter NH. He did an excellent job, and it feels great!

I'm currently running the LW flywheel WITH the LW crank pulley.

While driving the car home from the shop.. it felt great. Definitely has 'more power' / 'more pull' to it. Going to take a little bit to get use to. The power just climbs SO much faster and 'linear', and the rev's are smoother throughout the whole RPM range while increase in speed. While decrease of speed also has changed a bit, and since the rev's always seem to be a bit higher, downshifting can be effected a bit.. but its not really a problem. Like I said, I still need to get use to it.

Anyways, back on driving the car home from the shop. It initially DID have a CEL light after about 30 minutes of driving it or so I noticed it come on. It drove on the highway fine all the way home. However when i got into town, it started bogging out severely and had problems accelerating, etc. I figured this was the ECU going into limp mode.

Reset ECU next morning and drove the car again. CEL light went away after about 30 minutes of driving or so, and it seems like it has learned how to run fine with both the lightweight crank pulley and lightweight flywheel. So no CEL as of now, and seeming to run just as great as it did when I picked it up from the shop before getting into town!

The clutch pedal now catches much quicker and closer to the floor, but this could also be due to the fact I had a performance clutch kit put in. Either way.. feels great!

[d1giPhux]

So the CEL light came back on momentarily this morning when it was really cold out. I got it scanned just to see what its throwing. Its throwing a PO505: Idle Control System Malfunction. Not sure why it would be throwing this..? Anyone have any clues? After getting it scanned at autozone, its now off again. Its not a huge deal.. just looking for some info as to WHY PO505 may be getting thrown. Thanks!

[Huffer]

It's throwing the code because with the LW fly and LW crank it's idling a little bit out of cold start parameters.

[d1giPhux]

Hmm, thats weird. Interesting.. so I'm guessing the only way to fix this would be to get a tune.. or put the stock crank pulley back on? Interesting. Maybe cleaning my IACV will help? Probably not huh? Didn't have any problems with this before.. interesting either way.

[Huffer]

This is the issue that people said was possible when using a LW fly and LW crank. If you read waaaay back when you first asked about the risks of doing the LW fly mod.

No need to get a tune, or even swap the stock crank back on. Just make sure your belts are on tight, and get a code reader. That way you can check to make sure it's just PO505 and not something else.

[track8]

Put your original crank damper back on. Yes, I know a lot of people have been running for a long time with no dampers on their Subarus. Doesn't make it a good idea.

Torsional vibration occurs in the crankshaft of engines, as a result of the combustion process. The sudden reversal of load on the piston, conrod and crankshaft during compression, followed by the ignition or firing of the compressed fuel and air in the combustion chamber. Subsequent relaxation of the load following combustion causes deflection or flexing of the crankshaft. This oscillating vibration which results from the reciprocating load changes will remain in force until dissipated by internal friction or damping. At certain rpm ranges these oscillations can come into phase with each other creating potentially damaging torsional peaks in the crankshaft.

Unless the amplitude of these torsional vibrations is controlled, major damage can occur to engine components, such as rapid wear of the timing sprockets, stretching or breakage of the timing chain, pitting or cupping of the camshaft and lifters, broken valve springs and valve train failure, reduced service life of crankshaft bearings. In extreme situations uncontrolled torsional vibrations can lead to a loose flywheel or a broken crankshaft with serious safety consequences.

Above 2 paragraphs lifted from Pro-race's website.

I am running the Fidanza aluminium flywheel, with no related CEL's BTW. If I don't tell new drivers that it's got a light flywheel, they don't have any trouble getting used to driving it. Don't even notice in fact. It's actually worse if I tell them, they are scared of it, I think. They do like how quickly the revs drop between shifts, however.

I recall having to adjust the idle control valve back when I finished the clutch/headgasket project, although that was because the idle wouldn't drop below 1500 RPM. Hmmmm...

Is there even a tune available for the '96-'99's?

[d1giPhux]

Not sure if there is a tune available for my model of car, as its not something I've ever looked into before.

The only time I seem to get the CEL now is in cold weather, otherwise the ECU seems to adjust fine and it seems to run pretty damn good.

Its interesting that his description that you posted seems like it is causing a lot of subtle damage, however the car seems to run pretty normally to me. It only seem to act up in VERY cold weather (0 degree or so) when the ECU puts itself in 'LIMP' mode upon dead-starting the car and trying to run it. However, sometimes even then it runs fine. Pretty random if you ask me. Only has happened when its been really cold in the morning and I ran it. Once the temperature outside warms up, the ECU re-adjusts and shuts the CEL light off.

Thanks for the info!

[Huffer]

Put your original crank damper back on. Yes, I know a lot of people have been running for a long time with no dampers on their Subarus. Doesn't make it a good idea.

Torsional vibration occurs in the crankshaft of engines, as a result of the combustion process. The sudden reversal of load on the piston, conrod and crankshaft during compression, followed by the ignition or firing of the compressed fuel and air in the combustion chamber. Subsequent relaxation of the load following combustion causes deflection or flexing of the crankshaft. This oscillating vibration which results from the reciprocating load changes will remain in force until dissipated by internal friction or damping. At certain rpm ranges these oscillations can come into phase with each other creating potentially damaging torsional peaks in the crankshaft.

Unless the amplitude of these torsional vibrations is controlled, major damage can occur to engine components, such as rapid wear of the timing sprockets, stretching or breakage of the timing chain, pitting or cupping of the camshaft and lifters, broken valve springs and valve train failure, reduced service life of crankshaft bearings. In extreme situations uncontrolled torsional vibrations can lead to a loose flywheel or a broken crankshaft with serious safety consequences.

Above 2 paragraphs lifted from Pro-race's website.

Is there even a tune available for the '96-'99's?

Consider the fact that Pro-race MANUFACTURES DAMPED CRANK PULLEYS. And their ethos is significantly compromised because they do not manufacture NON-DAMPED pulleys.

They have absolutely no interest in supporting or even entertaining the fact that crank pulleys are quite possible without a dampening insert. If this was truly an issue, don't you think that other companies (like Perrin, Rallitek?) would shy away from non-damped pulley's.

Regardless, damped or not damped, the general consensus for eliminating any CEL with a LW flywheel (11-14lbs) is to reinstall the stock crank pulley.

There are no commonly available off the shelf tunes for the 95-99 DOHC ECU... it learns around even a Greddy Emanage and the "tuned" values are only available during WOT periods. There just simply isn't enough community support (and headroom in the car itself) to warrant tuners to try to crack the ECU map and provide a reflashing solution.

[track8]

There are no commonly available off the shelf tunes for the 95-99 DOHC ECU... it learns around even a Greddy Emanage and the "tuned" values are only available during WOT periods. There just simply isn't enough community support (and headroom in the car itself) to warrant tuners to try to crack the ECU map and provide a reflashing solution.


This was the understanding I had of that situation.

Won't debate the crank damper thing with you other than to say that I believe that there are torsional forces and harmonics that affect crankshafts and their driven components, excluding those driven by belts. Pro race didn't just make this stuff up, OEM's have been equipping all engines with them since well, I don't even know when. Subaru included.

[what huh]

is this being done to a ej25 or 22? or are the same when it comes to this, are all the flywheels, clutches, Pressure plates interchangeable between the ej25 and ej22