Front End Damage...Back On the Road!

[RandyMarsh303]

So I may just be the shortest term member ever to be at sl-i if this does not get resolved. Here is the story, I allowed my brother to take my car because his jeep was in the shop. Upon returning to my house with my car he was driving through the parking lot into the sun and drove dead center into a concrete light post. The radiator and fans are smashed. Radiator support is toasted and i have a pulley pushed into the timing belt cover. The engine should be fine but the radiator support im not so sure of. I was able to get things torn down a little to asses the damage. I stopped when i saw the timing belt cover. Tomorrow i will pull the crank pulley and check under the cover. The radiator support is available but has anyone ever replaced one. This thing is welded and bolted in place and im not sure its possible to salvage. If anyone has any advice how to remove the old one and or suggestions how to install the new one would be greatly appreciated. It was dark before i could take pictures so tomorrow I will upload so you can see. If the motor is done for then that wrx swap might come sooner then i thought it would. Thanks, Tim

[Reason]

That support beam can be replaced. You just need the right tools, the will to take it on, and a little bit of skill would come in handy.

[Okin DaVanh]

^---- +1





So I may just be the shortest term member ever to be at sl-i if this does not get resolved. Here is the story, I allowed my brother to take my car because his jeep was in the shop. Upon returning to my house with my car he was driving through the parking lot into the sun and drove dead center into a concrete light post.




:smt017






The radiator and fans are smashed. Radiator support is toasted and i have a pulley pushed into the timing belt cover. The engine should be fine but the radiator support im not so sure of. I was able to get things torn down a little to asses the damage. I stopped when i saw the timing belt cover. Tomorrow i will pull the crank pulley and check under the cover. The radiator support is available but has anyone ever replaced one.

This thing is welded and bolted in place and im not sure its possible to salvage. If anyone has any advice how to remove the old one and or suggestions how to install the new one would be greatly appreciated. It was dark before i could take pictures so tomorrow I will upload so you can see. If the motor is done for then that wrx swap might come sooner then i thought it would. Thanks, Tim






I've replaced many. What exactly do you need to know?


From what I think you're asking:


On the old 1, locate all the spot welds (usually where they attach/weld to frame/lower support etc....) and drill out each with a drill bit or spot weld breaker (looks like a drill bit /hole saw) and pry off. Line up new 1, tack in place.

[Perdue]

Is there a possibility that the motor itself is damaged? Just thinking...the crank pulley is attached to some important stuff and a hit that hard on an aluminum block might have done something.

[Okin DaVanh]

Is there a possibility that the motor itself is damaged? Just thinking...the crank pulley is attached to some important stuff and a hit that hard on an aluminum block might have done something.



Yes and no John
In some cases, pulleys are made to take the grunt of a collision and collapse before causing more damage. I believe he has a "fair" chance of the motor surviving this. By the way OP, can you post some of those pics you mentioned?.... when you get a chance.

[RandyMarsh303]

Ok thanks for the fast response on this. Im headed over to the car now to check the the status of the engine and to start breaking the old support off. Thanks for the suggestions Okin if i have any other questions I will post them. Do you think I should just order the part new or cut one from a junk yard? I will post pictures when I take a Lunch break.

[Okin DaVanh]

Do you think I should just order the part new or cut one from a junk yard? I will post pictures when I take a Lunch break.



Well, that depends on you.

I'd put a new one on if the car was in great shape. Otherwise, if you (or the yard) cut it right and it never had any previous damage or rust, used 1 could be swapped in.

Heck, see if the salvage yard will give you all the pieces at once. IE. Grill/ support beam/ upper and lower tie bar (radiator support) etc... Some places around here, give you a better deal with the more you take off.

[Perdue]

Thanks, Okin. Like I said, just thinking.

I agree with trying to find the parts in a salvage yard though. Chances are, you could get every part you need from one car for less than half of buying new replacement parts. You will have to prep about the same with new parts anyways (wax/grease remover, sand, prime, sand).

[RandyMarsh303]

So first off it looks a worse then i probably described it. Second I agree, I think it will be much is easier to try and get it all at ounce. Third, here are the pictures i promised. Now in the daylight and after some more dissemblance it is obvious someone has replaced this in the past and not done the best job on top of that. You tell me what you guys think based on these and then i will voice my concerns.

Some of these are a little repetitive sorry

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/11/IMG_2812-1.jpg
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/11/IMG_2814-1.jpg
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/11/IMG_2815-1.jpg
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/11/IMG_2817-1.jpg
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/11/IMG_2818-1.jpg
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/11/IMG_2820-1.jpg
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/11/IMG_2822-1.jpg

[Perdue]

That pulley just keep tension on the belt, so with a new bracket, it should be ok. If the frame rails are straight, I would just get new/used parts and bolt/weld them back on.

Edit: If it were me, I would also punch my brother in the head. Just saying.

[Okin DaVanh]

Edit: If it were me, I would also punch my brother in the head. Just saying.



:smt023




Don't forget to pull that lower (Tie Bar) section straight before you tack in another. And yeah, definitely try to get a deal at your local yard considering you'll need a hood too if you don't already have 1.















How many miles does your car have? Wondering if it would be cheaper to buy another and swap parts over.... just a thought.

[RandyMarsh303]

Im taking a punch to his wallet and the he has to help me throughout this whole ordeal. The car has just under 138k and I have been looking but nothing really available at the moment. I am not worried about the engine everything looks ok. Okin when you say pull that lower tie bar straight are you speaking of this....

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/11/frontend-1.jpg

there is no saving this its beyond bending it back. Im gonna head to a yard hopefully wednesday, unfortunatly this is the week before finals so my time is limited. Im hoping to have this all back together by the end of sunday night this coming weekend.

[Okin DaVanh]

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. However, after looking at it again, it doesn't appear to be pulling the drivers side rail inward after all.



Maybe you can just drill it out (but it looks like you chiseled the old 1 off) and set/weld the replacement back in place. GL

[RandyMarsh303]

thanks for all the help guys I will keep you updated on my progress

[RandyMarsh303]

Ok so I went to the junkyard today and made out like a bandit. Got a new bumper, bumper reinforcement, bumper beam, and the entire front clip for $102. The bumper is in better shape then the one I had before and ITS GREEN. I would have taken the radiator support from the green vehicle but someone had chopped it up already.

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/12/IMAG0092-1.jpg

My plan is to cut all the rusty metal away from my car and then slide the new clip over the frame rails and weld it up. I will post pictures of the bumper later

[Okin DaVanh]

Ok so I went to the junkyard today and made out like a bandit. Got a new bumper, bumper reinforcement, bumper beam, and the entire front clip for $102. The bumper is in better shape then the one I had before and ITS GREEN. I would have taken the radiator support from the green vehicle but someone had chopped it up already.






:shock:





Wow. I think I need to move closer to you! That IS a steal! RUN!!!! Before they find out where you live!!! :lol:



Did you get the tension/pulley set up too? If so, looks like you'll be done this weekend.




And:



So I may just be the shortest term member ever to be at sl-i




:smt018 Not on our watch. :smt023

[Huffer]

WHOOOOHOOOO!!!! :D

[chuckthefuk]

smashed, cut, sourced. fixed...

like a true Gen 2 legacy owner.

Nice score with the front clip.. Anything that big and my u-pick-it yards try to squeeze me for every last dime.

Good luck
-Chuck

[prodriver1]

drove into a light pole? sounds like trying to go sideways was involved;) do you have snow there?

[RandyMarsh303]

smashed, cut, sourced. fixed...

like a true Gen 2 legacy owner.



Thanks :grin:

Okin I did not get the pulley but I will get that tomorrow. Also have a buddy who is in a automotive school here in town and is gonna get the radiator tomorrow for $100 (napa). AC condenser is the same cost but i might wait on that until after I find a hood. I located one with a scoop but its red :-( Might just use this as an excuse to buy the paint for the whole car :grin: (Family discount 40% off at Sherwin Williams) Thanks for all the help guys I will keep the updates coming. And prodriver we do have snow and its falling right now. Just got snow tires a week ago and have not even used them yet.

[RandyMarsh303]

update: Just found ac condenser and radiator fans available from httrdd for a very very reasonable price. He is going to send them out tomorrow so being finished this weekend is out but definitely by next weekend. Going to get the timing belt cover and tension pulley now.

MY question to all of you is that is there anything i should be doing while all this is apart? I have thought about the timing belt but there is only about 3000 miles on it so not sure thats worth it. But what about any seals etc. that I should do while there are no obstructions?

[chuckthefuk]

Cam + Crank seals.
Tension-er / timing belt
new accessorie belts.
valve cover seals w/ spark plug o-rings and oil fill o-ring.

Skies the limit...

[Dead91silvia]

Looks like your on your way to having her fixed! I have done a ton of core suports on 2nd gen Legacys..

FYI: There are TWO different ac condensers and radiators. I think the year split is 97-98... The rad's will interchange, but you need to have the fans as well. The AC condenser's do not interchange, unless you also have the lines... Ran into the problem all the time with the cars I used to fix....

[RandyMarsh303]

Ok so here is my progress so far. I am feeling a little better about this whole thing now but I need your opinions on a couple of things. Sorry for the bad pics...

So here is what i did. I cut the frame rails on the car down so that only one bolt hole for the bumper beam was left. I then cut the front clip the same way so that the bumper beam will tie the two together.
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/12/IMAG00951-1.jpg
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/12/IMAG00931-1.jpg
Needed more light to take better pictures and I will post more detailed ones tomorrow
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/12/IMAG0354-1.jpg
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/12/IMAG035511-1.jpg
Unfortunately there are some larger gaps then I would like to admit to. These are between the car and the front clip (some as big as 1/2 in). I am unsure what to do with these. Should I just weld plates in to fill the gaps? or should I go back to the junk yard cut off another one and measure measure measure measure and measure again to get it nice and flush. I bolted the fenders up and other then a few adjustments they mocked up fine. Thanks again I look forward to your opinions.

[chuckthefuk]

DO NOT WELD PLATES!!!

go back to the yard and fine another one..

I am all for saving a few dollars here and there but not when it compromises the structural integrity and safety of your vehicle

Cutting into the frame rails like you did was not the best solution.

Every *plate* you weld in is another weak-link when dealing with another front impact scenario.

PLEASE!! PLEASE!! PLEASE!! LISTEN!

In the factory service manual you can find the body dimensions so you can compare your work to the factory specs.

Good Luck
-Chuck

[RandyMarsh303]

I knew the moment I cut into the rails that I did the wrong thing. I was just really unsure of any other way to be able to get the core support into a piece that was able to weld onto what I had. If it were not for that lower beam I would not have cut into the rails but it was directly tied into the layers of sheet metal that make up the rails. The reason I think I did this is because it was already rebuilt once before and the person before me did not do a very good job either. It left me hardly anything to work with. If the car is involved in another front end accident it will be the third one and at that point I will say goodbye because there is just no way i could feel safe even if a professional had rebuilt it in the past. Just for further reference what would you have done to get this support back on. And the reason i asked about the plates is not to save money but at this point I feel like this cant get any less structurally sound considering the previous rebuild.

[RandyMarsh303]

Is this even worth continuing or should I stop now and look for a shell to swap things into? I am no pro and I feel like I am in over my head........

[chuckthefuk]

You should have pulled the entire front end out and then cut and reweld.. But whats done is done..

Majority of the supports / panels are spot welded on and can be removed with a steady hand and a drill bit or spot weld drill bits.

..

I must say not many members or most auto-enthusiast in general would take on a huge body shop task like this.

You can either Start over, measure, cut and weld.

Or.

Buy a new shell like you mentioned.


The second is the "faster" route but at a cost..

I am not sure what to tell you... I feel your pain...
-Chuck

[Okin DaVanh]

.... I was just really unsure of any other way to be able to get the core support into a piece that was able to weld onto what I had...
Pm any mod here, make a thread, PM myself/Dead91Silvia or hit the Body section. :smt023
And Before we condemn the whole thing, can we get a pic in the morning/whenever with better light?

[httrdd]

Yea man buy a shell 300-400, swap everything over, scrap the shell 200+. Takes a hit on the wallet, but get out before it start costing you more.

[RandyMarsh303]

I will definitely get pictures tomorrow for you guys. I have been looking for a shell with no luck but not sure where to look other than craigslist. I feel like I would.be most comfortable with that considering I still want to mod it and was planning an Sti swap. Any ideas on where to get a shell ? At the very least I'm gonna start looking for both a new support and a shell to keep my options open. If I do get a new clip and flush things up do you think a motor swap is.still worth it?

[Okin DaVanh]

I have been looking for a shell with no luck but not sure where to look other than craigslist.


Why not ask the salvage yard if they have a shell?

[RandyMarsh303]

ok sorry it took so long for these but school has been crazy busy with finals.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/pbgod888/DSC02830.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/pbgod888/DSC02831.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/pbgod888/DSC02829.jpg

After going back and looking at it i do feel a little better about where I stand with this. I am going to the junk yard tomorrow to get a new front clip, timing belt cover, and the tensioner. This weekend I will cut the clip flush and weld it in and get it back on the road. I then will begin my search for a rolling chassis/shell that has a clean title that I can feel comfortable in. More updates to come

[Dead91silvia]

Well... You did start it the right way... :smt017

1. Like Chuk said, you always do what you can to not cut the rail.
2. the only time you do a splice like that, if if its WAY farther back, and it can be done, but it's not easy.
3. You CAN still fix your car the right way.

Everyone is right when they say you will need another peace. You DONT patch or extend metal. We have a joke in the auto body world when things dont fit... ""get me the metal stretcher"!... They dont exist.. There are tools like slide hammers and also frame machines to make it right...

The proper way to do it is drilling all the spot welds and the making the metal fit like its intended. We no longer have that options though... I'm going to link you to my Pulsar thread and what I did to put my car back together is what your going to need to do to fix yours.

Not all is lost, but by cutting the rail, your life got a LOT harder!

Pulsar link... Look at what I did on the rockers and A-pillers... This is what you will need to do with your rails. The car will still be strong, but with sleeving, it will be more rigid and wont collapse like Subaru intended.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21374 (http://www.sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21374)

[RandyMarsh303]

Ok so I did listen and went back to the yard and cut off a new clip (got lucky and found a green one). Here are a couple of pics of the new gap.

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/12/IMAG0394-1.jpg
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/12/IMAG0393-1.jpg
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/12/IMAG0392-1.jpg

Thank You silvia for the link to the pulsar build. This is kinda what I had in mind when I mentioned welding "plates". Thanks for helping me visualize exactly what i needed to do. Unfortunately I no longer have access to a welder so I'm not sure what to do about that :smt017 . If anyone one knows of a local member here in Denver with a welder please let me know. Other then that I will continue to update as progress is made. Again as always thanks for all the help.

[chuckthefuk]

Can you not rent one from you your local building center or automotive depot?

Gaps look good get crackin'

-Chuck

[RandyMarsh303]

I did find a rental shop that has one available but it is a wire feed that only uses self shielding flux core. Im worried about using this because its so easy to blow holes in the thin sheet metal with flux...my novice skills dont help that fact either. Any suggestions on using the flux core on the thin stuff or should I just keep looking for a gas wire feed that I can use solid wire on.

[chuckthefuk]

PM Reason.. hes a professional welder.

[Dead91silvia]

Flux sucks balls to weld with... It can be done but I'm used to good old copper and a mig...

And no prob... Anytime...

[Dead91silvia]

Oh yeah, clean up your rails! Get all the oil and seam sealer off from about 2-3 inch's back from where you are going to weld. Same with wiring and other parts. My dumb ass forgot I had a door plug in my Pulsar door jam and melted a plug with some slag from a weld that them caught some insulating foam on fire... Yeah, even use professionals do stupid things every now and then... haha

The cleaner your weld area is, the cleaner the weld and the less problems you will have. Make sure when you do weld to have everything mocked up and bolted down. Get all the points take welded and then pull all the parts off (bumper, fenders and such) and finish weld everything, grind, paint... yadda yadda...

[RandyMarsh303]

Progress has been at a dead stop since I have been spending so much time on the CF trunk lid. Finally was able to get a hold of a welder and over to the car and get things put back together. Okin I am sorry to say I was not as thorough as the pulsar job but it is plenty solid. Welded some "sleeves" in on the inside of the rail and I will say that flux core sux @ss but the job got done.

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/01/DSC02952-1.jpg
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/01/DSC02953-1.jpg
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/01/DSC02954-1.jpg
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/01/IMAG0418-1.jpg
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/01/DSC02955-1.jpg

AC condensor, rad, rad fans, timing belt cover, crank pulley, and acc belts all back on and ready to go. I am going to the store today for fluids, lost some tranny fluid so Im going to go ahead and flush/swap it for Royal Purple. Need to go to the junk yard for a couple of fasteners I seemed to have misplaced :smt021, also put the trunk back together, side skirts, front bumper, and headlights. Hoping to drive it home tomorrow :shock: I am going to have to strap the hood down though as I still have not found one.

IN DESPERATE NEED OF A SCOOPED HOOD! I would prefer a green one but at this point I will take anything. If you have one or have seen one on the cheap then let me know. I missed out on a hood and trunk lid for $60 by like ten minutes on Craigslist and have seen nothing since :smt022

[Okin DaVanh]

That's Dead's Pulsar :lol:, tho I can't get enough of that thing it's sooooo tempting, but It's not mine :-(


Looks like you made out pretty good with the progress, but was it all welded back in, or did I miss something? I mean, I would have still put a braid on the cuts themselves. A waste to some, but just my OCD.

[RandyMarsh303]

No I did not weld up everything just a few key places. Everything put back together and back on the road as of last night. Had some overheating problems because of some air in the cooling system but got it all figured out. Drove it the 25 miles home and popped a check engine light right when i pulled into the complex, then it went off shortly after. Popped the hood and what did I find..More Bullsh!t. The nut holding the tensioner pulley worked it self loose and the same thing happened as before. The belt and pulley went straight into the new timing belt cover!!! So now I will be pulling everything apart again and replacing the center timing cover AGAIN. Also have some headlight problems. The passenger side is broken at the adjuster so it flops around and the driver side corner does not go in right. Also they are hovering a good inch above the bumper so not sure where the tweak is but im just happy to be back on the road. I am going to be looking into some JDM projectors so if anyone has any leads as to where to find some at a good price let me know. Also if anyone has any ideas on how to get the headlights flush with the bumper that would be appreciated. I will get pics up later this afternoon.

[chuckthefuk]

1) Projectors can be had for $120 on ebay all day long.
2) The head lights mount to the rad support. And are level with the bumper. If its not lined up then either your rad support is bent or the frame rail modification is misaligned and cuasing the bumper beam to sit funny.

[RandyMarsh303]

Yea that is what I figured :smt021 ... I will probably just drill new holes for the top two mounts and secure them that way because if those two are not attached I can get them to sit in there nicely. Thats what I thought but I cant seem to pull them up...I must be searching the wrong thing. Any assistance with my retardation would be awesome....

[chuckthefuk]

show some pics of the gap

[Okin DaVanh]

^----Yeah.... What him say. :smt023

[chuckthefuk]

Happy BDAY!!!!! "insert emoticons"

[Dead91silvia]

The welds for the sleave looks good! You just need to weld the gap and clean it all up and your golden!

As for aligning... Hmm... I should have reminded you that when you do a slice like that, you need all the parts to make sure everything lines up right. not all is lost though. Just get some shims (not recommended, but ok for this application).

Also, as Chuck said, post up some pics so we can see whats going on.

[Reason]

Make sure everything is on and lined up correctly. Those sleeve welds I would grind down smooth after you lay a nice bead down on that joint. Like I told you just practice on something the same thickness to get the feel for it. Once you are comfortable go to town.

[Reason]

This isn't one of my better welds but you want it to look like this but a little flatter. I was moving too fast and didn't have a steady hand. This is was my first pass from not welding in two years.

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/01/20110129_082633_87-1.jpg