Broken brake line... AND HOW TO FIX IT !! [Archive]

d1giPhux

02-17-2012, 12:01 PM

My luck this week is just terrible. I now have a broken hard brake line :smt022

This line is on the passengers side, right behind the rear wheel area.

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brokenline1-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brokenline2-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brokenline3-1.jpg

Does anyone know WHERE this line goes to? Looks like its connected to some weird flexible hoses that route around the back of the car somewhere.. but I cant really tell WHERE they are going to.

I'm going to need to run some new lines, but I'm not really sure where to start with this. Looks like the line comes in from under the rear seat, and then drops down, then around the car.

Just wondering if anyone has done this before, and what the best way to route the lines would be.

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated. I feel like my luck is just not good this week. :smt021

d1giPhux

02-17-2012, 12:20 PM

Looks like the part that is leaking goes INTO the car.

The other side of that double connector appears to go around the gas tank and above the frame somewhere I cant see.

Here is a picture from opposed forces. The connector where all the lines go into is #17 on the picture below:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake_linespng-1.jpg

So I'm guessing I need to replace from the adapter back to wherever the line is running to. Oh man.. what a hassle. Does anyone have any tips on doing this, or where the line itself runs before ripping my entire interior apart. :(

mlitz

02-17-2012, 12:29 PM

there is no reason for it to go inside... don't pull your interior apart. give me a min to look at the pictures and maybe get out of bed and go look my car

EDIT: are you sure it is a brake line and not a fuel line?

d1giPhux

02-17-2012, 12:34 PM

Its a brake line.. brake goes to the floor when pressed. The line runs under the rear seat.. and then through a grommet that comes out under the car. Then it attaches into the fitting #17 that all the other lines attach to.

Luckily it appears to have broken on the side that comes from the inside of the car, and not on the side that goes around the gas tank and frame and shit.

I actually found a video of a guy who had the same problem as me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynWwJiuHmLE

That video might give you a better view of what is going on with my car as well.

mlitz

02-17-2012, 12:38 PM

well the seat cushion is really easy to pull... is that where you think it is?

d1giPhux

02-17-2012, 12:43 PM

Yeah, I'm pretty sure these lines come from the front of the car > down the rocker panel > under the rear seat and then out underneath the car.

Guess I should get out there and just start pulling the interior apart. Second time this week! :lol:

Not sure what I'm going to do about this. Maybe just pull the old line and then have to flare some new lines? I'm not really sure where these lines go to in order to get into the engine bay.. but guess I'm about to find out! :smt013

mlitz

02-17-2012, 12:51 PM

just slowly trace the lines, mark them with some tape so you know witch ones go where. then yes you will need to cut them and flare new lines and splice them in. if you lived near me I would come and help...

d1giPhux

02-17-2012, 01:03 PM

Dang.. too bad I'm on the opposite coast! Haha.

Okay, so here is what I've done so far. Removed rear seat, rear seat pad, and rear passenger door sill.

Looks like the brake line is going to run up the passenger rocker panel area..

How can I spline lines in? I thought I would have to just replace the entire line all the way from the front of the car?

If i was to splice a line in.. wouldnt I have to flare the end of the line where I cut it, then use a union, and then use another line connected to the union? I'm not sure how that would work. Any more info you could give me would be greatly appreciated.

Here is a view of the line going through the grommet under the rear seat:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brakeline1-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brakeline2-1.jpg

Huffer

02-17-2012, 01:15 PM

If the line broke inside the car, wouldn't there be brake fluid residue there?

d1giPhux

02-17-2012, 01:50 PM

Huffer: No.. it broke right where it hangs down under the car. See pictures #1 and #2. It comes out from a grommet and makes a weird bend. Looks like its broken somewhere near the bend. Apparently as far as i've read this is a common spot for them breaking.

Here is a picture of the lines coming up from under the car REAR and going to front:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/lines_rear-1.jpg

Here is a picture of the lines running up the passenger side FRONT of the car (I removed seat, all plastic, etc):

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/lines_front-1.jpg

Here is a picture of where the lines connect in engine bay (what the heck is it connected to??) :

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/lines_engine_bay-1.jpg

Huffer

02-17-2012, 02:17 PM

Ok, so looks like all you'll need to do is cut the brake line about 2" from the bend, install a join, install a new line and bend that through to the brake and flare the fitting.

d1giPhux

02-17-2012, 02:21 PM

So i shouldnt bother replacing the entire line? I mean, either way I'm going to have to buy line and crap.

Might be easier to just replace the entire line rather than trying to flare proper lines while on the car right? Not sure.. hmm. I'm going to disconnect the line from under the car now.

Huffer

02-17-2012, 03:17 PM

It's not necessary to buy all new line. The break is right where that join is, which is probably a 90deg bend, in what, a 12 year old car?
Your lines inside the car and in the engine bay look perfectly fine, and unless your car was submerged won't have any rust on them whatsoever.

Think about how much you'll have to do to replace the entire line. That's easily 10ft of tube work.

d1giPhux

02-17-2012, 03:32 PM

I'm not sure how I would do that though?? If someone could explain that would help. I just cant visualize it.

Also, anyone have any tips on getting the line disconnected? Seems like the nut or whatever going into the junction is just so rusted, its rounded off. Maybe cut the line and use a socket? If that doesnt work.. any other ideas? Looks like its 10mm flare nut, but i bought one, and it just seems too round now to get undone.

Huffer

02-17-2012, 03:59 PM

Here's a good starter for you:
http://www.stu-offroad.com/suspension/f ... l/ft-1.htm (http://www.stu-offroad.com/suspension/flaretool/ft-1.htm)

Basically, you're going to cut the pipe after the break, inside the car. Then you're going to put a fitting over that line, then flare that out so the fitting doesn't come out. Then you take your replacement line, measure up what you need, slip on the fitting, flare it and that will connect to the line in the car. The take the other end, put the fitting on, flare that and that will connect to your flexible brake line on the rear of the car. Make sure you tighten the fittings down properly, but don't overtighten.

Dead91silvia

02-18-2012, 11:49 AM

You know whats sad..... I have scrapped 2 sets of those in the last 6 months...

You can splice it like Huffer said, or you could study it and see how much work it is to change the whole thing and how much a new one is from Subaru. It might be some what reasonable for a new one.

d1giPhux

02-18-2012, 12:13 PM

VIDEO OF HOW LINES ARE ROUTED: http://tinyurl.com/subarubrakelines

Update:

So I had to cut the line, and then use butane pen torch + 6 point socket to get the brake line fitting out of the 4 way connector.

Here is my dilemma:

Should I replace the entire line, or should I just flare the line inside of the car, and then add a union and call it a day?

It would be easier to just add the union and such, but it worried me for a couple reasons. First being that if I cut the line inside of the car, brake fluid is going to run inside of the car and make a huge mess. Second reason I may not want to do that is.. because if it ever DOES leak again in the future, its going to leak under the rear seat. That would also be a huge mess.

If i replace the entire line, its just going to be a giant pain in the ass to remove. I will need to buy a lot of brake line, and i will also need to pull the grommet from the front of the car, and re-route the lines all down the rocker panel and such. There is about 8 bends I would have to make as well. Its almost like id want to replace both lines if i did it that way.. as the other line looks equally rusty under the car. It really wouldnt be THAT much work however. I just need to figure out if I would bend the lines BEFORE installing them, or after. I'm not sure how subaru would do it.

The price from subaru for each line is around $90.

Any ideas??

d1giPhux

02-18-2012, 01:00 PM

I took a better look at the brake line running under the seat, and it looks like i COULD create a decent flare on the existing line while its on the car. So now my concern is how to drain the fluid out so that it wont be leaking everywhere while i do this. Also, it would be great to block the line off while I bend the new line as well.

Any suggestions? Brake fluid is nasty stuff and I DO NOT want it to get everywhere if I use this method.

Thanks!

02_Legacy

02-18-2012, 01:41 PM

Put a rag around the line then cut the brake line with side cutters. Then bend the line up and you should be able to do it with out too much fluid loss. Then take your line cutter and make your square cut and flare the line. Then run your new line, start inside the car and push it through the grommet and then go under the car and route it as necessary. I would go right to where it attaches to the flex hose and bypass that 4 way connector all together. Connect it to the flex hose then use your union to make the connection inside the car. As long as you get the union nice and tight and you have good flares it will never leak there so no worries about that.
There really is no reason to rerun the whole line as the only place it is rusted is under the car. If you are not confident enough you should bring it to a shop they should be able to do a repair for under $90 I would think.

If you do decide to replace the whole thing, note that these are A/C lines you circled below. The brake lines will end at the ABS unit.

http://www.designlabx.com/subaru/brakes/brake_line/lines_engine_bay.jpg

d1giPhux

02-18-2012, 04:47 PM

Really? Those are the AC lines? How could that be? The lines that run along the floor in the car go directly out to that location. Weird.. maybe I'll have to take another look. Glad I didn't disconnect anything.

02_Legacy

02-18-2012, 05:41 PM

on a second look they may not be A/C lines (was looking at the picture on my little phone screen), but the brake lines should go to the ABS unit. I'm curious about it now too?
Maybe try following the lines the other way, start at the abs unit.

d1giPhux

02-18-2012, 08:27 PM

So looks like the lines in the front go to what is called the 'proportioning valve'. Its part of the ABS system. Here a picture below from the FSM compared to the picture I took:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/lines_engine_bay-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/proportioning_valve-1.jpg

Now I just need to decide whether I want to bother with flaring a line, or just remove the entire line and get 2 new pieces from the store pre-flared. I've never flared lines before, and it seems like a huge hassle to get it done correctly while the line is ON the car.

My best bet would be to do the following if I was going to try that route:

1. Cut the line using a hack saw or dremel as to not 'harden the metal'.
2. File the end of brake line off flat. Deburr inside of line with utility knife.
3. Heat end of line till its red, and then let it AIR cool. IF possible.
4. Use cheap autozone brake flaring tool and make a double flare.

Seems all easy and such, except that it might be a real pain while the line is ON the car. Then, if it does leak.. its gonna go all over my interior.

Well.. thats where I'm at so far. Now to figure out whether I wanna try and create flares, or what to do so i can get this done.

Thanks!

d1giPhux

02-19-2012, 10:23 AM

Well.. looks like this job is just going to get a hell of a lot harder. I'm trying to remove the lines from under the dash so that I can just replace the entire line. Only problem is.. they go up under the dash area, and im trying to figure out WHAT i need to remove in order to get them out. Here are some pictures of what I'm looking at (lines are marked with red arrows):

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/lines_under_dash1-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/lines_under_dash2-1.jpg

It also appears I need to remove both #1, and #2 from the picture below. Looks like the ECU plate, and then the rubber mat underneath it??

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/lines_under_dash3-1.jpg

As you can see, the lines run under the rug and up under the dash area. I removed all the wiring harnesses and unplugged them. I removed all the stuff holding the carpet.. but they STILL run under some black mat, and seems like I would need to remove the blower motor in order to get them out? Anyone know what I need to do?? Not sure if that circular thing IS the blower motor, but if it is.. it looks like it might be in the way. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated as I'm at least trying to get the lines out today so I can finish this shit! PAIN IN THE ASS!

d1giPhux

02-19-2012, 11:23 AM

I had to do the following:

-Remove CENTER CONSOLE
-Roll carpet up further.

Now the ECU plate is exposed. I'm assuming I will have to remove it in order to remove the black rubber mat that is under it which is also covering the lines going up into the dash area. Once I get that done.. I'm not sure what the heck i'll find. Hoping I wont have to remove the dash or anything retarded like that. In which case.. I will give up.

Hoping someone here has done this before and can give me some tips on what I'll need to remove. Looks like the lines run under that black mat, then up near the heater box area. UGH!

Here is a picture of what I'm looking at now:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/ecu_plate1-1.jpg

In the picture below #1 is the ECU plate I think I will have to remove in order to remove #2 which is a rubber mat that covers the lines up in the top right hand corner.

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/ecu_plate2-1.jpg

Dead91silvia

02-19-2012, 11:24 AM

I just took a look at my BD. I would say at minimum, you need to pull the ECU plate and pull your firewall insulation out of the way.

REMEMBER TO HAVE THE BATTERY UNHOOKED WHEN PLUGGING AIRBAG BACK IN! (yellow plug with Yellow loom)

I'm not really sure how far you NEED to go to get them completely out, but you might need to take the fan box out. That is a PITA to do. If it comes down to removing the dash, look in my Heater core DIY, shows most of what needs to be done to pull the dash.

But yeah...
1. remover ECU plate
2. firewall insulation
3. glove box (gives more work room)
4. (possible) heater fan box

This might be a case where splicing might not be a bad idea. I'm still a nut about having my car 100% so I would do the complete line, even if I had to do the dash, but thats me.

Dead91silvia

02-19-2012, 11:30 AM

The more I look at it, you should only need to pull the ECU plate and insulation... Your that far might as well do it and see.

d1giPhux

02-19-2012, 11:33 AM

Yeah, I'm really hoping I dont need to remove the heater fan box. That would entirely SUCK. Its looking like I might have to. I'm going to go pull the ECU cover and see if I can get to the firewall insulation. This is turning into a nightmare and not much fun! :(

Do you have a link to your heaterbox DIY? God.. that would totally suck if I had to remove the dash. Not looking forward to what I'm about to find out.

Dead91silvia

02-19-2012, 11:40 AM

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=23882 (http://www.sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=23882)

The GOOD thing is that it would only be the fan box that will need to be removed and you wouldnt need the complete dash out, just lose.

d1giPhux

02-19-2012, 11:49 AM

Pulled the ECU plate:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/ecu1-1.jpg

That gave me enough room to bend the firewall insulation back. Still cant see the top of the line. Looks like its going behind the heater box or something. Here a picture of the nut that is attaching to the 'heater box' or whatever it is thats in the way:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/heaterbox1-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/heaterbox2-1.jpg

Whatever piece of plastic that nut is attached to seems to be in the way. It looks like it MAY be the last thing I need to pull. But.. how the hell do I pull it, and what IS it? Looks like its either part of the dash, or part of the heater box??

Dead91silvia

02-19-2012, 11:54 AM

This is what it looks like with the dash off...
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/IMG_8666-1.jpg

Dead91silvia

02-19-2012, 11:55 AM

sooooo... yeah, the dash would need to come out to take that box out...

What I would do is get a box cutter or something and cut the insulation and pull it out if you can.... or pull the dash.... I know, that sucks balls...

d1giPhux

02-19-2012, 12:19 PM

What a pain in the ass. This fuckin sucks. I'm thinking I might as well give it a go at flaring the brake line before messing around anymore with this BS. Subaru.. you SUCK. Thanks for nothing! :smt013 :smt011

I'm wondering if I pulled the blower motor, if I would be able to see anything behind it? Or is the dash just behind it. This totally sucks.

Do you think its possible to get the right side of the dash loose enough where I can just get my hands in there without removing the entire thing?

Dead91silvia

02-19-2012, 12:40 PM

Well, you dont need the complete dash out, just out far enough to work on the box. There are some brackets you need to pull off the dash brace I think, but it should only be 2 nuts/bolts to get the box lose. Thats really all you need is it to be lose so you can get the insulation out from behind it, but I also have the feeling that you might need the box completely out of your way and that is for lack of a better description, a bitch...

Subaru has done some odd things to make life difficult, but most of them are things you dont have to ever work on. I have a feeling this is one of them... Like my heater core, it stupid how much of a pain they are.

d1giPhux

02-19-2012, 12:55 PM

Yeah, talk about it. Pulled the E-brake last week and what a MISERY that was. One of the hardest things I've ever had to do.

While bolts do you think I should pull to see if i can get the dash loose enough to let it come forward a little? I can almost FEEL where the pipes go through the firewall.. i just need enough room to get my hand in there basically. Then comes the fun part of trying to bend a line and feed it through. I can only imagine what fun that will be! :(

d1giPhux

02-19-2012, 01:15 PM

Are you sure there is no other way to pull this box??:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/heaterbox2-1.jpg

When i loosen that nut, the whole thing shakes around. I can see some smaller screws on it as well, and it looks like it could split in half. If i could just remove the bottom half, I would have enough room.

EDIT:

Looks like it MIGHT be possible to remove the lower half. They call it the 'intake door motor'.. whatever the HELL that means. Here is what I'm talking about:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/intake_door1-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/intake_door2-1.jpg

Not sure exactly WHAT that part is.. but it looks like its the part that is in the way. Maybe I can remove just that bottom half and get enough room.

Anyone know WHAT it is though. 'Intake door motor'???

d1giPhux

02-19-2012, 01:53 PM

So what the heck is the 'heater duct' or 'evaporator'? Anyone know?

I found the top screws to the 'intake door motor'. They are shown in the picture below. Not sure how to get the zip tie things off the threads of the screws however, and also, not sure WHAT would happen if I undid those 3 screws and the electrical clip. Wonder if it would just split apart or something??:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/intake_door3-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/intake_door4-1.jpg

02_Legacy

02-19-2012, 03:06 PM

You are putting your self through so much extra work. Did you ever get the brake line off on the other side where it goes into the 4 way block? Because if you replace the line with a stock one you are going to have to get that out too...
Flaring is not that hard. I don't know who told you you need a torch but I have done tons of brake jobs and have never once heated up a line to flair it nor have I ever heard of that before. Also like I said before make the initial cut with a pair of side cutters, it crips off the line and is quick which minimises fluid loss. Then use tubing cutters to make your square cut. Like this:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/BR4510_T1_Main-1.jpg

Then use a ISO/Bubble flair kit to make your flares. (Note: a double flare is a domestic flair which is not used much anymore, iso/bubble is metric and I am 90% sure that is what you will need)

d1giPhux

02-19-2012, 06:59 PM

Yeah, I got the line out of the block.

What are side cutters? And I was told to heat the line to anneal the metal making it soft again. Most people seem to get bad flares because they harden the lines. Maybe a sharp pipe cutter would work okay.

Also, can anyone clarify if its BUBBLE flare, or DOUBLE? I thought it was double flare. I know Mercedes uses BUBBLE flare, and those take a special tool. I heard subaru were DOUBLE flare. Hopefully someone can clarify before I buy lines and or rent a double flare tool. Would suck if the flares were BUBBLE. :smt022 :smt021

EDIT: Actually I can just look at the flare I cut off. I think I also have a Mercedes BUBBLE flare as well. I'll try and get a picture of the subaru one.

EDIT: Looks like its a double flare. I knew these didnt look as round as mercedes lines. Here are some pictures, and then a comparison.

Double Flare off my subaru:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare1-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare2-1.jpg

A comparison between ISO (BUBBLE flare), and metric DOUBLE flare.

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare4-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare5-1.jpg

02_Legacy

02-19-2012, 07:20 PM

Bubble flare does not use a special tool, it is just a different kit than the double flare kit.

Side cutters, diagnal cutters, wire cutters, what ever you want to call them:
http://www.objectsandelements.com/shop/images/plr31500-Side-Cutters.jpg

And I don't know what to tell you about the heating thing, like I said I have done lots of brake brake line replacements, I was never taught to heat the lines and I never have and I haven't had a problem.

d1giPhux

02-19-2012, 08:10 PM

Alright, maybe I'll give it a go. I wanted to replace the entire line.. but at this point, I feel like I'm just wasting time. I wonder if I tried to take that cover out.. the last piece im up to, if it would come out.. and if that would work. Hmm.

I didn't mean it required a special tool, I just meant that BUBBLE flares use a different kit. And they usually dont have them available to rent for free and are pretty rare. Hopefully someone can confirm that Subaru are in fact DOUBLE flare.

Thanks!

d1giPhux

02-20-2012, 11:17 AM

:smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013 :smt013

I CANT FLARE A BRAKE LINE TO SAVE MY LIFE! Seems nearly IMPOSSIBLE. I just keep bending the flare in weird ways, and it wont sit flat on the line and create a damn flare!! This is on my TEST line. I couldn't even IMAGINE this being possible while on the car. Holy crap. I think I might have to pick up the NAPA special tool (SER 161A). Looks like it may work better than this crap rental from autozone.

Anyone have some tips for me? MAN this sucks.

I cut the line with a tubing cutter, deburred the inside and out of the line, then try using the tool. Every time I start tightening down the tool, it will just bend the end of the line and not create a proper 'bubble'. W-T-F.

d1giPhux

02-20-2012, 11:42 AM

On another note.. does anyone know how I can pull these clips off the threads of these bolts sticking through:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/intake_door4-1.jpg

I want to try and attempt to remove the plastic box around the heater core area and see if it will give me enough room, or if its even possible. Ordered the special NAPA tool for the flaring and it wont be here till tomorrow anyways. :smt030

Dead91silvia

02-20-2012, 12:33 PM

Use a looooong flat screwdriver to remove those clips... I like your persistence for doing it the right way!

Your also going to need to remove some brackets if your trying to get the box out, but they shouldnt be too much of a pain... Good Luck bro!

Huffer

02-20-2012, 03:00 PM

Good lord. You are making this WAY too difficult. If you had just done what I suggested you do, your interior would still be installed and you'd have the line finished up by now.

But hey, it's your knuckles. You do realize you're going to have brake fluid spilling out anyway, but you could have avoided that by bleeding the system out of the broken section...it's a hydraulic fluid, it only works when it's under pressure.

d1giPhux

02-20-2012, 06:18 PM

I did let it bleed out over the course of 2 days by dripping. Stepped on the pedal a couple of times too, but I don't think that really did much except let more fluid enter the lines. LOL.

I might end up just flaring the lines at the back. I took a look at the box today and doesn't look like its gonna want to come out.

Bought a NAPA brake flaring tool that looks like it should make this easy. Guess I'll find out tomorrow. The autozone rental tool was a POS and gave me the MOST uneven flare i've ever seen in my life. Hell, I couldn't even get the first part of the flare done with it. It was a total pain in the ass. So I just spent the $30 and got a 'in-line double flare tool' from napa. Looks way better and easier to use.

I'll report back tomorrow. Ideally I'd love to replace the entire line.. but I think I would have to pull the dash. At this point if I can get a proper flare using the tool i bought, I'll be happy with that.

More to come! :smt023

02_Legacy

02-20-2012, 06:46 PM

I'm telling you, you can make your union with a double flare, but you cannot attach it to the 4-way block or hose, where ever you are going with the hose, with a double flare. You are going to need a bubble flare for that.

And are you sure that you did not have too much of the line sticking out of the holding tool when you were trying to make your flares. Getting the right amount of line to work with is crucial for making a good flare.

d1giPhux

02-20-2012, 08:02 PM

I think your confused. BUBBLE flares are for EURO cars, not japanese. Japanese cars use double flare. I took the connector OUT of the 4-way block, and its DOUBLE FLARE Metric. Not Bubble. Not sure where you are getting your info from, but I'm looking RIGHT at the flare that came out of the connector. I've NEVER seen a japanese car use ISO/BUBBLE flare. The only cars I know that use BUBBLE flares are Mercedes, and other German cars. Everywhere else online also says that subaru uses Metric DOUBLE flare M10x1.0 which is exactly what came out of the 4-way block.

The tool I was using to make the double flare was a piece of junk autozone tool. Impossible to use on the car, let alone off the car. I'm not sure how people even use those things without securing it in a vise really. Huge pain in the ass. I bought one that looks like this:

http://partimages.genpt.com/largeimages/1307769.jpg

Here is a video of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfJmdZZr5GM

Bubble flares look like they literally have a BUBBLE end, the double flares are also whats known as an 'inverted' flare, and does not have a round part to it. I know they don't look the same because i've taken bubble flares off a Mercedes before and it looks much different.

02_Legacy

02-21-2012, 12:05 AM

Everywhere else online also says that subaru uses Metric Bubble flare M10x1.0 which is exactly what came out of the 4-way block.
:smt017
Yes bubble flare…
I know the difference between a double flare and a bubble flare. Like I said I do this for a job. In the 5 or 6 months that I have worked I have only once made a double flare for a vehicle and it was an older domestic vehicle. Granted we were a domestic shop and worked almost exclusively on gm and ford cars. However if domestic cars are using a flare that is considered metric, I have a hard time believing that japaneese cars don't.
And I'm now done with this thread, I'm not posting in it anymore.

d1giPhux

02-21-2012, 07:50 AM

ARGH!!! I meant DOUBLE flare. LOL. Gonna have to go back and edit that now.

I even asked for the correct fittings at a local store and the guy said 'what car is it for', and i told him 'subaru'.. he said 'okay, you will want the METRIC inverted DOUBLE flare fitting then'.

So yeah, I'm pretty sure subaru take METRIC double flare. I'll call the subaru shop today and see what they say. However, the fitting I took out of the 4-way connector was a double flare. I will try and find one of my mercedes flares to take a picture of to compare later on as well.

Here are some links I found with info about the brake line connector types:

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f9/t137766-w ... u-use.html (http://www.rs25.com/forums/f9/t137766-what-style-flare-brake-line-does-subaru-use.html)

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f105/t75174- ... thing.html (http://www.rs25.com/forums/f105/t75174-diy-abs-delete-whole-thing.html)

I'm not trying to piss you off.. I just want to confirm for SURE that these are the correct brake fittings. They do NOT look like the 'bubble' flare that I have taken off a Mercedes before. Not sure if there is such thing as a japanese BUBBLE flare. The fittings I took out of my 4-way connector definitely look like the inverted double flare fittings I bought from the store. I'll call subaru later and ask them if they can tell me.

If anyone else has an opinion or fact about this.. please chime in! Gotta get it right before screwing something up!

d1giPhux

02-21-2012, 09:24 AM

Okay, got a direct answer from the guys over at subarupartsforyou.com:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/double_flare-1.jpg

So looks like they DO in fact use Metric Double Flare. Cool.. at least I didn't waste my money on a tool I didnt need!

Now that I figured that out.. I can get rolling on this! Hope this NAPA tool serves me well. Picking it up in a couple hours. :smt023

d1giPhux

02-21-2012, 04:18 PM

Got one line flared with a connector on it. :smt023

Wondering if I should do the other line as well since it too is quite rusty looking and looks like it might be the next one to blow. :?:

Think i should do it while I'm in here??

Huffer

02-21-2012, 04:31 PM

Might as well... but I would finish up the line you are doing first.

d1giPhux

02-21-2012, 09:47 PM

Yeah, I'm gonna get the first one done first.

Here is what I've done so far.

Comparison between purchased brake line that was pre-flared, autozone shit tool flare, and NAPA SER 161A Tool Flare. The NAPA tool KICKS ASS and I can make a flare in less than 1 minute with it!:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flaretest1-1.jpg

Brake line flare tests comparison:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flaretest2-1.jpg

Brake line piece rought cut from bottom of car and the tool I used to cut it (as suggested):
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare_install1-1.jpg

Cutting the line with pipe cutter:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare_install2-1.jpg

After deburring inside of line using knife:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare_install3-1.jpg

Filed outside edge of line to deburr outside:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare_install4-1.jpg

Brake fitting placed on line BEFORE creating double flare:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare_install5-1.jpg

NAPA Double Flare tool placed on line (showing insert):
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare_install6-1.jpg

Another view of insert and brake line inside tool:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare_install7-1.jpg

Tightening down NAPA tool:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare_install9-1.jpg

Be sure to use vice grips to hold tool while tightening down. Must be PRETTY tight:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare_install10-1.jpg

Placing insert into brake line:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare_install8-1.jpg

Threading NAPA tool onto brake line holder:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare_install12-1.jpg

First part of double flare created:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare_install13-1.jpg

Second half of double flare created:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare_install14-1.jpg

Completed double flare on line:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare_install15-1.jpg

Brake union tightened down to newly created double flare:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/flare_install16-1.jpg

WELL.. thats all I have for now! More to come tomorrow!

Huffer

02-22-2012, 11:52 AM

Well done!

d1giPhux

02-22-2012, 05:42 PM

Got one line fully installed. Went through 3 test lines before I found out the proper way to bend them so they would fit into place! Pretty crazy the way subaru made it. Definitely not easy. Pictures to come on this post later! :smt023

Wiscon_Mark

02-22-2012, 07:41 PM

This is awesome, I'm going to add it to the *new* threads of note sticky when I get one made.

Way to be persistent.

Dead91silvia

02-22-2012, 09:26 PM

Not bad! Did you get the other part of the line from a J/K yet?

d1giPhux

02-22-2012, 09:51 PM

What do you mean?

I got 1 line totally installed and ready to go. Gonna rip the other rusted line out tomorrow and flare / connect it to a new line!

Can't wait to be done this. Gonna make sure everything is sorted out tomorrow and then onto bleeding it and hoping I did a decent job! :smt020

d1giPhux

02-23-2012, 08:50 PM

We'll, got the 2nd side cut and flared.. but damn, bending the lines for this other side is MISERABLE. Its really a hard line to bend. Gonna post pictures once I get something that fits. Ugh! Can't wait to be done this! :smt013

d1giPhux

02-27-2012, 02:54 PM

Some updates. Got both lines done. Now just need to bleed it. Here are some pictures:

Rusted 2nd line compared to newly replaced 1st line:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake1finished1-1.jpg

A view from the underside of the car.
(This is where it blew from underneath the car. This area is right below the passenger seat under the car.)Compare old to new:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake1finished2-1.jpg

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now I will show the entire process again on the 2nd brake line. I decided to replace this one as well since it was rusted to hell:

Cut brake line 2:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished1-1.jpg

Brake line 2 deburred inside and outside using file and utility knife:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished2-1.jpg

Brake line 2 flared (inverted dlare aka double flare):
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished3-1.jpg

Brake union screwed into brake line 2:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished4-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished6-1.jpg

Brake line 2 connected underneath car, and then bent in a diagonal line towards brake line 2 in the car:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished7-1.jpg

Brake line 2 bent again to go towards brake line union and other brake line 2 inside car:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished8-1.jpg

I then cut the new brake line 2 coming up from under the car to get rid of extra length:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished10-1.jpg

I marked the line where it would be about halfway into the union connector. Then I cut it off, deburred, and installed brake fitting onto line:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished11-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished12-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished14-1.jpg

BRAKE FLARING:

I had to flare the new line so i put the NAPA double flaring tool on the line I just cut:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished15-1.jpg

This picture shows that the line should stick out as much as the first step on the tool piece:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished17-1.jpg

DONT FORGET to put your brake fitting on before putting on the flaring tool!:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished19-1.jpg

First step of double flare created:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished20-1.jpg

Second step of double flare created:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished21-1.jpg

Double flare completed and tool removed:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished22-1.jpg

New line fitting screwed into new union:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished23-1.jpg

BRAKE LINE #2 COMPLETED!!!:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished29-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake2finished30-1.jpg

Brake lines finished (under car view). Scary how rusty the other lines look now huh?
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brakeline_under1-1.jpg

NOTE: WHEN BENDING LINES, BEND LINES LIKE THIS FIRST, then install into car and bend the rest of the way. This is the EASIEST way to do it that I found and works on BOTH lines. I also wasted a LOT of line trying to figure this out. First make the very tight 'C' shape, and then screw into the 4-way box beneath car. Then bend/adjust top of the line inside car:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/line_bend1-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/line_bend2-1.jpg

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So.. theres my huge update. Now I just need to test for leaks. Then clip the lines back into place, then add fluid and bleed!

d1giPhux

02-28-2012, 03:38 PM

Got some new NiCopper brake line so that I could complete the rear lines replacement since they are super rusty and I don't want to trust them after all this work.

This new brake line is a 'copper-nickel ferrous alloy'. Its rust resistant and DOT approved. PLUS.. its SUPER SUPER easy to bend. WAY WAY easier then steel line, and your flares come out INCREDIBLE. If i had to do this all again, I would have just bought a roll of this stuff to begin with!

A view of the Nickel-copper brake line. Cost $34 for a 25' Roll:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/copper_install1-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/copper_install2-1.jpg

A view of just how good the flares come out. Didn't have to torque down on my tool AT ALL to hold this stuff either while making the flare:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/copper_install3-1.jpg

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: THIS IS HOW YOU SHOULD BEND BOTH LINES BEFORE INSTALLING:

1. Bend the first 'C' section. I used my cheap $3 bending tool like so:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/copper_install4-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/copper_install5-1.jpg

2. Then use the tool backwards like this to bend the line back vertically:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/copper_install8-1.jpg

3. Once you are done, the line should look like this:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/copper_install7-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/copper_install9-1.jpg

If you bend BOTH lines like this before installing them into your car, it will allow you to tighten both to the 4-way fitting underneath easily. Then after you can bend them down INSIDE the car under the rear seat.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Got a bit carried away. Decided I would make new lines with the NiCopper brake line. Just because.
I did this in under an hour for both lines. Removed old lines, flared new 12" lines, bent them, then installed. All super fast! :smt023

A view of the new line on the left installed:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/copper_install10-1.jpg

Removing 2nd line:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/copper_install11-1.jpg

After cutting 2nd line down to proper size and then flaring it:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/copper_install12-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/copper_install13-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/copper_install14-1.jpg

Second line Installed!:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/copper_install15-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/copper_install16-1.jpg

View from bottom of the car:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/copper_install17-1.jpg

So basically I didn't get a whole lot accomplished in terms of running the new lines to the rear wheels, but I did get to play with a couple feet of the new brake line, and this stuff ROCKS! If you have to do this, I suggest just buying a roll of this stuff from the start. You will save $ and have extra!

phi11

02-28-2012, 03:54 PM

Omg! Great job!!!!!
I will be buying this stuff.

d1giPhux

02-28-2012, 04:19 PM

Thanks man!

Yeah, its wicked easy stuff to bend.. wish I would have bought it to begin with, but I was pre-occupied with buying 1 foot steel sections in order to try and fix the lines under the rear seat first.

Then i realized all the rest of the lines are rusty as hell too.. so I'm gonna replace them. The NAPA brake flaring tool was also a big helper. It kicks ass, a $30 well spent!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now I'm just trying to figure out which lines run to which sides on this 4-way connector.

Looks like both the left and right rear lines run over the gas tank and subframe area and then connect to the 4-way box. Here is a picture of what I mean:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/02/brake_line_routing-1.jpg

I'm not sure how I'm going to route the new lines yet. Need to find somewhere safe to route them.. and NO WAY am i gonna try and push them over the gas tank and crap.

ANY SUGGESTIONS ANYONE?

d1giPhux

03-02-2012, 09:05 AM

Been taking the last few days off since its been snowing, and I can't really work outside im the freezing cold AND snow. :smt011

Need some help on figuring out how to run these new lines.

Does anyone have any pictures of where the rear lines run under the gas tank? Anyone ever removed their gas tank?

I'm trying to figure out which side of the 4 way connector connects to which rear wheel? Or does it not matter? Picture:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/03/rusted_lines1-1.jpg

StatGSR

03-02-2012, 10:30 AM

Loosen one or both, open bleeders, then apply air, see what side i comes out of, or remove one and plug the other, and open both bleeders, see where the fluid comes out. these are just some ideas to save you a lot of time and effort... don't over think it..

d1giPhux

03-02-2012, 10:50 AM

Thanks.. yeah I was actually thinking about doing that. Only problem being, where the lines connect to the 4-way connector, they are SO rusted, that I know they wont easily be unscrewed. In fact, the only way I was able to get the other 2 lines out was by cutting the lines, and then using a 6pt socket on them, as well as heat. So.. i guess I COULD do that, but then id be up the river without a paddle, or whatever the saying is.

I guess if I'm replacing the lines anyways, that wouldn't be a huge deal. Hmm, might have to consider that.

StatGSR

03-02-2012, 11:18 AM

You could disconnect it on the new side you just put in and get the same results....

Huffer

03-02-2012, 11:21 AM

That 4 way connector is likely a passthrough - the fluid probably doesn't pool inside there - the lines should run straight through the box. You may just want to replace that at the same time.

d1giPhux

03-03-2012, 11:26 AM

huffer: So what your saying is, I could do like statGSR said and just disconnect the other side of the 4 way to try and figure out which lines are going to the wheels?

Hmm, sounds like an idea, i think i may just have to do that. The 4way itself is in okay condition, its just the lines that are rusted / mangled.

Huffer

03-05-2012, 10:35 AM

Yep.

d1giPhux

03-05-2012, 10:42 AM

Found a good thread that is related to this brake job:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=20529 (http://www.sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=20529)

Now if only I could get a hold of the thread creator! I've Pm'ed him on several msg boards.. but no luck. Anyone know his email?? I want to ask him how he routed his rear lines, and if he has any pictures!

d1giPhux

03-06-2012, 03:31 PM

...Update! I Figured out how the REAR BRAKE LINES (from each wheel) connect to the 4-way connector!!

Here is how the REAR brake lines run from each wheel TO the 4-way connector:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/03/subaru_brake_routing-1.jpg

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is how I found out which lines ran where:

1. Disconnected the new lines from the 4-way.
2. Attached brake fitting w/line.
3. Put balloons over line.
4. Disconnected brake hose from caliper (remove (1) 14mm bolt from caliper).
5. Spray compressed ait into brake hose (the one you just removed).
6. This is the remaining balloon. This shows us which side the PASS side is on. So now we can assume the drivers is the other one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are the brake fittings and balloons:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/03/airtest1-1.jpg

Removing the new lines from the 4-way connector:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/03/airtest2-1.jpg

Connecting the fittings to the 4-way so you can use balloons in next step:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/03/airtest3-1.jpg

Put balloons over fitting:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/03/airtest4-1.jpg

Blue balloon remains. This shows you that the side the yellow was connected to is PASS side where you are blowing air into:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/03/airtest5-1.jpg

A video of the compressed air blowing out the balloon:
http://tinyurl.com/7ao2hgm

So.. as you can see, when we look at the brake line routing with the NEW lines coming from under the seat.. the TOP line is the DRIVERS, and the BOTTOM lines is the PASS.

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/03/subaru_brake_routing-1.jpg