Bilstein Struts

[toyota>subaru]

Anyone familiar with/have experience with these struts? :

Bilstein part# 22-048035 as well as 22-048028

Looks like they're a set of twin tube oem replacements but maybe a little stiffer. 10% approx. I just want to know how they stack up vs the kyb gr2 which is valved around 10-15% stiffer as well.

I also notice that the first # I gave shows up on tirerack as a rear right strut but on Bilstein's site it is a front right. Peculiar?

I'm beginning to think that even for those of us that daily drive these cars but still want to get down and have some fun will need to buy a set of coilovers because they come out nearly the same price it takes to get a decent damper out of a shock and respectable rate spring. I just cant see GR2's and HnR springs being a proper setup (despite the fact so many on this forum run this). The rates of HnR can't be better than RCE or whatever which are 5kg front. And with an oem shock being run lower in its stroke range one basically just beats the piss out of the damper.

[Huffer]

Which chassis?

I run a comparable setup of GR2 + KingSprings Low, and have done so for a number of years. The struts are only 30-50mm compressed beyond normal - which doesn't sound like a lot but visually it's quite striking next to a stock vehicle. The GR2's are 15% stiffer than factory, supposedly, but I think that's compared to an L or LSi model, not a GT (which is already 15% stiffer than an L).

Those PN's are for the front struts, not the rears.
http://seekpart24.com/bilstein/shock-ab ... 21&at=8248 (http://seekpart24.com/bilstein/shock-absorber-22048028?c=100121&at=8248)

[toyota>subaru]

I have a Bd Gt. and yeah I saw that those pn's were for the fronts because I verified it on Bilstein's website. I just thought it was weird that tirerack only offered one of the rears (even though I don't think they make any for the rear) and it was the same pn as one of the fronts.

What rates are your springs? It seems like most of the coilovers for this car are around 8f/9f and 6r/7r. I don't know if a GR2 is going to handle that rate especially when lowered out of its proper stroke range. I wish Koni made some stuff for this car... but they probably make some for the 02-07 wrx.. which we can run on the BD without issue correct?

[Huffer]

Probably just a typo on Tirerack's part. Bilstein doesn't stock a "rear" for the BD/BK/BG - but they do for the BE/BH series. Not compatible though.

My Kings are progressive rate springs - they are very similar to the discontinued Eibach Prokit range for the BD/BG chassis. You have me confused though - coilover springs are not normally able to run on OEM-spec struts because they are much narrower. The GR2 will likely NOT handle an 8k/9k spring rate, it'll blow in less than a year's worth of driving. A 6/7 is probably just as bad. Butt dyno says my springs are probably around 4/5k range. Perfectly doable for the street and some light autox/roadcourse work if I wanted.

It's unlikely that the Bilsteins would handle something higher rated either - keep in mind they were installed on streeted Legacies and not "excessively" lowered Subaru's. If you look at a GT-B, it doesn't sit much lower than a regular Legacy - maybe a few mm's.

Koni don't make anything for the BD/BG specifically, but they do make inserts for stock struts. All you have to do is work out which insert works with your stock struts, and then just cut them open, slide in the insert and you're away laughing.

02-07 WRX hardware will work, but you actually still run into an issue with shock length - the WRX (and generally any Impreza shock) has a longer travel than the Legacy to begin with. So, you take a longer shock, put a drop spring on it and you might end up only lowering a few mm's again, and you've still shortened the shock travel length.

[toyota>subaru]

ok to clarify, I did not mean that I wanted to run a coilover spring on on oem spec strut. They are skinnier indeed. I just meant coilover kits are running in the range of 9kg/7kg and I have also seen 8kg/6kg.
As you know almost all aftermarket springs will be progressive rates, but I am familiar with the eibach prokit and I really don't find it suitable. So are your springs stiffer than those perhaps? I am not looking for much of a drop if any, I want a stiff ass spring lol and a damper that is beast enough to hold it as well as run in its proper stroke range. Koni's are the best shocks for running out of their proper stroke length.
Now for the koni's. Do tell how I can get ahold of these inserts! Is this something people are just measuring the diameter and stroke length and comparing it to our stock shock bodies? Or is there one specific that people are using?
and as far as the wrx struts go.. hell with that.

I simply cannot believe how much potential this car has yet the aftermarket for it is just garbage.

[Huffer]

Gotcha now...
There's only one manufacturer that I know of who has made (in the past?) a same height but stiffer spring for the Liberty/Legacy chassis - King Springs in Australia. They also make lifted springs (FWIW). They could give you more specific spring rates. The best OEM damper out there is definitely the Bilsteins. If you can find a used set, you can have Bilstein USA rebuild them to your specification.

Koni inserts - yes - you need to measure your struts and contact Koni to find out what damper will work for you, they will be able to tell you more. I know PatOlsen is/was running Koni inserts on his BD. If you've ever seen any of his race videos his BD is exceptionally well grounded (it probably helps that he's a decent driver too!).

The aftermarket is strong in NZ, AUS and Japan - those markets got a turbo model and when you go power, you get everything else also. Look how the Impreza market exploded when the 02-03 WRX arrived. The 2nd & 3rd Legacy never received the turbo in the USA, so they got shafted by the performance race industry.

[toyota>subaru]

Yeah pretty much every turbo car has a huge aftermarket. and yeah it sucks that we didn't get the turbo'd vehicles at least for a performance engine. I am a fan of N/A vehicles though. I am actually running the ej22 in my 97LGT. Underpowered can be fun too lol. So are there companies in NZ similar to say whiteline that are making high quality suspension components? I just wish there were more coilover options and strut options.

I really like koni and bilstein. bilstein definitely being easier to work with for our cars. I had a set of them on my mk3 supra for a while and liked them a lot. I talked to H&R today and they don't give rates for their sport springs because there is no standard for testing them apparently. Only for their higher performance springs do they give rates. I'll have to check out the king springs but right now I am leaning towards these H&R's with bilstein fronts and kyb rears. Gotta talk to Bil. again tho. Speaking of that were there ever monotube Bil's made for the BD? Twin tube seems to have aeration problems according to what i've read.

[Huffer]

AFAIK, whatever Bilstein stock now, is what they made. The Koni insert might be the way to go for you - it's a fairly cheap mod (just dirty). Pair your modded struts with a nice spring and you'd be ok. Keep in mind that the H&R spring does give a pretty aggressive drop on stock struts.

You could adapt the inverted mono struts from the GC-era STI - it has a similar profile and weight to the stock Legacy. Just heavier in the front because of the turbo, IC, exhaust etc. This is why when NA cars end up with a front end lift when they swap suspensions with turbo models. But, if you pair that mono strut with a spring for the GC chassis, it'll work.

There are plenty of options for suspensions, but just not much for a "bolt on" solution for what you are trying to do.

[mike-tracy]

Interesting theory about the turbo suspension raising the front of an n/a car.

[toyota>subaru]

Interesting theory about the turbo suspension raising the front of an n/a car.

Yeah it definitely gives it a little lift. My car has some front end lift right now with the 2.2 in place of the 2.5. When the spring and dampers are matched mass is involved in the equation.

[toyota>subaru]

AFAIK, whatever Bilstein stock now, is what they made. The Koni insert might be the way to go for you - it's a fairly cheap mod (just dirty). Pair your modded struts with a nice spring and you'd be ok. Keep in mind that the H&R spring does give a pretty aggressive drop on stock struts.

You could adapt the inverted mono struts from the GC-era STI - it has a similar profile and weight to the stock Legacy. Just heavier in the front because of the turbo, IC, exhaust etc. This is why when NA cars end up with a front end lift when they swap suspensions with turbo models. But, if you pair that mono strut with a spring for the GC chassis, it'll work.

There are plenty of options for suspensions, but just not much for a "bolt on" solution for what you are trying to do.

So in attempt to not "re-invent the wheel" Do you think those Koni inserts (the same PN#'s as the other guy used) would fit in my particular strut bodies off a stock 97 LGT? Obviously I would have to verify the numbers on my struts.

[mike-tracy]

[quote="mike-tracy":1w9q6vd6]Interesting theory about the turbo suspension raising the front of an n/a car.

Yeah it definitely gives it a little lift. My car has some front end lift right now with the 2.2 in place of the 2.5. When the spring and dampers are matched mass is involved in the equation.[/quote:1w9q6vd6]

Reason I mentioned it is because I have turbo 2nd gen Spec-B suspension on my 1st gen turbo legacy and the front is slightly but noticibly higher. Perhaps because it came off a TT and i'm single turbo?

[Huffer]

Interesting theory about the turbo suspension raising the front of an n/a car.

It's actually not a theory. There's a reason King Springs has different P/N's for the 2.0L, 2.5L, Turbo etc cars.
This is why my car has a perfect front-back stance with no "saggy butt" because I bought springs that are designed for the 2.5L Non-turbo Wagon.


So in attempt to not "re-invent the wheel" Do you think those Koni inserts (the same PN#'s as the other guy used) would fit in my particular strut bodies off a stock 97 LGT? Obviously I would have to verify the numbers on my struts.

Sure. Pat Olsen did the Koni insert to his BD. Stock struts.

[toyota>subaru]

Ok well I am probable going to go with these Koni inserts this summer but for now I need to put a bandaid on the bouncy garbage going on. I have an acquaintance that has brand new Kyb's that were intended for his legacy outback. He has the part numbers: [235632, 235633, 335020, 335021] I understand that the rears will absolutely not work.

Will the front ones work for my 97 Gt sedan? (the 235 numbers) If so I can get these for really cheap from him!
Thanks guys

[Huffer]

The outback struts will lift a regular legacy, and the mounting points on the suspension may throw off your geometry.

[toyota>subaru]

Hell with that... I already have a 2.2 in place of a 2.5 so it already slightly lifted. As far as the geometry.. does this cause the control arms to point down significantly more because its being lifted or is there another reason the geometry is changed?

[Huffer]

On the Outback, there are body spacers and spacers in the suspension that correct the geometry for the longer struts.

[toyota>subaru]

Ah I got ya. I've never had the opportunity to work on an Outback. I think eventually i'll do those koni inserts but for now its about a month from driving season here in Minnesota and my mk3 supra with an N/A 2jz will get my loving attention :) ..The subaru is fun but my 7200 rpm high revving inline 6 gets a little more exciting

[Huffer]

^^ I feel you on that!

[Huffer]

Found the thread with the Koni inserts:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=439463


I'm installing Koni inserts into a set of '97 2.5GT struts. Along with that I’ll be putting on some Ground Control coil-over sleeves with 325# springs up front and 280# springs in the rear – 100# higher than my DMS Golds were at both ends of the car. The setup will be complemented by a set of Noltec caster/camber plates in front, some Sti top mounts in the rear, plus my already-installed Whiteline swaybars front and rear and comfort-bushed ALK.

I had to contact Koni to figure out the right fitment, as their catalog is (not too surprisingly) based on UK/JDM model years and model designations. With some emails bounced back-and-forth with Koni, and an email to Subaru of America, I figured out that what I needed was 8610-1318 for the front and 8610-1317 for the rear. The Koni online catalog only shows a rear application for the '96-98 model years, so I had to email SoA to confirm that my '97 front struts were made by Showa, and sure enough they are, which meant that the 8610-1318 shown for earlier years will work for me. The rears are clearly stamped "KYB", but the fronts don't say Showa on them anywhere - they say "SUNBURY", which I guess is a factory location or something like that, I dunno.

Last week I acquired a spare set of '97 2.5GT struts, so I've been able to butcher them without worrying about my car being out of action. Step one is to drill a small hole (3mm per the instructions, I used a 1/8") in the bottom of the strut housing to drain out the original fluid. I was a bit worried about how much pressure might be in the housings, and what kind of mess I was going to create in doing this. Well, with the fronts I learned my fears were unfounded - drilled the holes, pumped the fluid out (by cycling the strut by hand), good to go. The rears were another story. With the longer housing and strut rod, I had to compress the strut to get it into the vice I was using. I drilled the first one, and as soon as the housing was breached pfffffftttt this spray of oil comes out! Pressurized oil spray + small hole + spinning drill bit inside of hole = mess. Fortunately I was wearing safety goggles while drilling, but I still got a bit on my face and head. So, for the 2nd rear strut I figured, "Ahhhh, compressing the strut to fit in the vice is a bad idea!" so I rearranged how I put it in the vice so that the strut was fully extended. Yeah, uhhhh, that didn't help, and I got sprayed again. Oh well, live and learn....

Once the fluid was drained/pumped out of the four struts, it was time to cut the tops of the strut housings off so that the stock innards could be removed. The Koni instructions show how far down the strut body you're supposed to cut, and the dimensions are based on the location of nubs on the sides of the Koni inserts up towards the tops. Those nubs are what locate the inserts tightly inside the factory housing, so you have to be sure you don't cut off too much of the housing or the nubs won't be inside the housing and hence the insert would be free to wobble around. Make sense? I measured the nub locations (which are different on the front and rear struts), subtracted the 7mm the Koni instructions specify, and came up with 1.47" for the fronts and 1.72" for the rears (or something like that). I ended up deciding to just cut them both to 1.5", and then if I needed to I could take more off the rears.

I already had one of those chain type pipe cutters, so I figured I'd use that. Well, that gave me mixed results. On the rear struts, the cutting point was in thinner metal, with a wall thickness of 1/16" thick or so - a little thicker than your typical exhaust tubing. The cutter didn't have any problem with that. Once I had made the cuts I could see that just below where I had cut the metal thickened up a bit, which would have made it more difficult to get through. Turns out, on the fronts I had to cut through that thicker metal. The first one I went most of the way through with the chain type pipe cutter, but the little cutting wheels were starting to bottom out and it couldn’t quite finish the job. So, I finished that one off with my Dremel. I decided to skip the pipe cutter for the second one, and instead went with a hacksaw (which is actually what Koni’s instructions show). It actually wasn’t too bad using the hacksaw.

OK, pulled out the stock innards, time to move on to the next step. The instructions say to enlarge the holes in the bottom of the strut housings to 14mm. Again, no metric drill bits to play with, so I went with a ½” (12.7mm) and figured I could enlarge that as necessary. My drill was being a real PITA at this point, kept slipping on the bits no matter how hard I tightened down on the chuck. I’m thinkin’ the spray of strut oil straight up the 1/8” bit into the chuck probably didn’t do much for its ability to grip. Eventually, though, I managed to get all four drilled out. Turns out (from what I can see thus far – haven’t finished the install yet) that 12.7mm is plenty big as long as you are careful about getting the hole right in the center of the bottom of the housing. I had to Dremel two of them a little bit, but the other two were fine as is – I would guess the bolt that holds the inserts in is only 12mm, so the 14mm the instructions specify is probably just to give you a little wiggle room to account for drilling slightly off-center.

At this point I could have installed the inserts into the housings, but I decided to do a couple other things. First, since this is a spare set of strut housings, I can safely cut off the spring perches since I won’t ever be putting stock springs on these. That’s what I spent time doing today. Even using an air grinder and cut-off wheel it took me quite a whle, probably 15-20min for each strut. I guess it makes sense, though – those perches are holding the weight of the car, so they gotta be pretty beefy. I left about a ½” lip – basically, the horizontal part of the perch right up against the housing – for the GC sleeves to rest on.

Once that was done it was painting time. The housings were already in pretty good shape, but the bare metal exposed with the various cuts needed to be covered up, and spray paint is cheap so I figured I’d paint the things completely. Off to Lowe’s I went to pick up some paint and a couple other things (to be discussed later). I debated a variety of colors as I stood in the aisle of spray paint – red to match the GC/Eibach springs, silver to match the car, fluorescent whatever just to be crazy, or – even more crazy – metallic gold or chrome for the ultimate in bling bling suspension. It coulda been sweet, but I decided to stay conventional and just went with some flat black Professional Grade Rustoleum. During commercial breaks while watching Rally France coverage on Speed I sprayed the housings down so they’re all purty again.

So, at this point I’m basically ready to put everything together, but I need to get some 4x4 style shock boots to protect the Konis, and the one 4x4 shop I knew of out here was closed today, and they’re closed Monday too, the bastards. Once I have the boots I’ll be ready to put everything together. Hopefully I’ll be able to finish everything after work this week, get the suspension installed, and get an alignment. I’ve got an auto-x coming up next Sunday, and I’d really like to have everything done by then, but we’ll see.

There will be further updates, including my pictures, as the week progresses.

Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan

[toyota>subaru]

Thanks man I'll check this out. I looked on Koni's site too. It seems relatively straight-forward.