Need some advice from suspension savvy sl-i members!

[harrymaneuvers]

I have posted this over in I-club and am not getting much help.

I have next to NO experience with suspension. Like NONE!

So I need some pointers and advice on what I should and shouldnt be focusing on with the wrx wagon.

My fear is diving headlong into new beefy strut braces, sways, links ect and making the car a HORRIBLE DD. I have no clue how these items would affect oversteer, understeer, drivability... especially when combined with eachother.

There are no plans for track or anything like that... I just want to make this car feel really solid for spirited street and highway driving.


Original Post:

"I am getting the parts together to make the front track of the 04 wagon wider to match the body.

I am lost when it comes to what I am looking for.

CAR IS ON STOCK SPRINGS/STRUTS with 2011 WRX 17x8 wheels with 245/45/17 RE970's

If I am going to be replacing the control arms, I would like to get aluminum control arms but I am unsure which ones to get. USDM, JDM, Caster adding, non-caster adding, year ect.

Also unsure if I should get an aftermarket sway bar/links or if a stock one will be fine.


Considering the front of the car will be wider than the rear by a little more than 5mm per side (rear end has 5mm spacers), I dont know if I should be diving into a beefier sway/links just yet or what.


Anybody have some insight as to what I direction I should be going. I have no plans on autox or tracking so I am afraid of going overkill with the suspension for just a DD but would prefer to upgrade while I am in there.

Maybe skip the sway/links and upgrade certain bushings instead?


Is there an order that I should be tackling these items?


Like start with bushings, then go with sways and then go with strut bars if I am still looking for more.


Am I barking up the wrong tree entirely? Should I be focusing on springs/struts and keeping everything else stock?


All help or discussion is appreciated.

[chuckthefuk]

GD sedan track is wider then the GG wagon.

If you choose the Aluminum control arms you will gain 20mm of track.
- You will need new end links (spherical type)
- You will need Sedan sway bars.


The rear struts are slightly different then the GD sedan so you can choose either:
1) sedan struts..
2) adjustable lateral links + camber bolts..

...
Bushings will create NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) for your DD... This will help cement the feeling of your GG but it will also feel rough..

...
if you are looking for a wider stance then different offset wheels or spacers can achieve this... I hate spacers but people do use them with good reviews.
..

Thats all i can add while I am at work...

Check this out --> http://www.wrxtuners.com/forums/f53/wag ... ame-15387/ (http://www.wrxtuners.com/forums/f53/wagon-vs-sedan-whats-different-whats-same-15387/)

-Chuck

[harrymaneuvers]

"If you choose the Aluminum control arms you will gain 20mm of track.
- You will need new end links (spherical type)
- You will need Sedan sway bars."


Do you mean that I will need STi sway bars if I use the STi aluminum control arms? I read that the 06 WRX had aluminum control arms... but not the castor adding ones.

Can I find a set of those and use WRX aluminum control arms with WRX sedan sway?

[chuckthefuk]

You can use the stock "dog bone" style endlink but it will stress the bushings
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/04/DSC03194-1.jpg

http://web.vtc.edu/users/crd04080/help1.jpg
Short sway bar.. Stresses the end link.

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/04/install_front_end_links-1.jpg
Spherical style link

The sti bar is longer then the wagon bar..

06-07 wrx did use the same wide track control arms as the 04' sti. The 05'+ sti used revised control arms to gain Caster. Not camber..

... Hmmmm... where is Jamal... he is the king of suspension.

[harrymaneuvers]

Now we are getting somewhere. I am not going to be cutting corners by trying to use missmatched parts. I just need to know what I am after and I will start finding the items.


I get that Sti bar is different than WRX sedan bar and both are different from the wagon bar.




Sounds like an STI sway bar will go on if I use the STI control arms but a WRX sedan sway bar would be used if I run the 06/07 WRX aluminum control arms.


I have that part pretty well covered.


Now I just need to know:

- if Caster would be a good thing for a DD (IE should I be looking for the 05 STI control arms or not) and if they came on any JDM STI's
- if aftermarket sways are necessary or if the wider track with stock sti bar would be enough of an improvement for spirited driving
- which bushings in the suspension would add the most NVH. Already have the Rallyspec 4EAT insert and the rear diff outrigger bushings done.

[02_Legacy]

I don't know too much about interchangeability of parts but I can help you with caster.
As caster increases you get better directional stability (less wondering), however steering becomes harder and you may get whip back (the steering wheel returns too fast and goes past center) if too much caster is added. More caster also increases your camber in when cornering which is desirable for high speed cornering at the expense of tire wear at lower speeds.

[jamal]

i like how in all of your pictures of the sedan control arms there are things going horribly wrong.

As far as what you should do, I would put new struts right at the top of the list. Some KYB GR2s are a pretty good stock-like replacement. You can use some newer wrx stuff but I suggest sticking with 2nd gen specific stuff. H&R I think is about the only place that makes a spring for these cars anymore.

After struts/springs, swaybars and some bushings would probably be your next bet. For swaybars there's nothing huge/crazy/race-specific for these cars so even the biggest available bars, which are 22mm, are not extreme.

An STI swaybar WILL NOT WORK because of the bends required to clear the n/a exhaust. if you do sti arms you would need the 02-07 impreza RS sedan front bar. or just use spacers on the endlinks. Also, the sti arms are a nice thing to have, and it's physically impossible to have too much caster with these cars.

really it depends on your budget and what you want out of the car.

[Wiscon_Mark]

i like how in all of your pictures of the sedan control arms there are things going horribly wrong.

As far as what you should do, I would put new struts right at the top of the list. Some KYB GR2s are a pretty good stock-like replacement. You can use some newer wrx stuff but I suggest sticking with 2nd gen specific stuff. H&R I think is about the only place that makes a spring for these cars anymore.

After struts/springs, swaybars and some bushings would probably be your next bet. For swaybars there's nothing huge/crazy/race-specific for these cars so even the biggest available bars, which are 22mm, are not extreme.

An STI swaybar WILL NOT WORK because of the bends required to clear the n/a exhaust. if you do sti arms you would need the 02-07 impreza RS sedan front bar. or just use spacers on the endlinks. Also, the sti arms are a nice thing to have, and it's physically impossible to have too much caster with these cars.

really it depends on your budget and what you want out of the car.

Jamal, this is good advice for his 2nd gen, but I believe he's looking at upgrades for his fiancee's 04 WRX wagon.

[harrymaneuvers]

^This.

Hahaha I love where your mind is at though.

I swapped the STI front end onto the wagon making the body a "widebody". Now I am going to complete the widebody by widening the track of the wagon to match that of a Sedan/Sti.

I am trying to get a gameplan together so that I am not getting anything I dont need and not getting things that I could be replacing with upgrades.

Not sure how much lowering I could really do... my tire/wheel set up is pretty large already.

Budget I would say isnt really an issue... I always find the deals and dont mind waiting for the right deals. However I wasnt really prepared to get sways/links, struts bars, bushings, Aluminum control arms AND coilovers/springs/struts all at the same time.


Hence wanting to get a gameplan together. That way I can slowly (over a few months) amass the parts.

FWIW I have a lifetime alignment at Firestone which is about 4 miles away from me... so I am not scared in the slightest about digging in as I can just drive 35 mph down the road and get my alignment dialed into whatever specs I want. The techs there are all tire/wheel/alignment nuts. The GM has a RHD S2000 that is mean.

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy18/harrymaneuvers/2011%20WRX%20wheels/IMAG1018.jpg

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy18/harrymaneuvers/2011%20WRX%20wheels/IMAG1016.jpg

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy18/harrymaneuvers/2011%20WRX%20wheels/IMAG1019.jpg

[Dead91silvia]

Maybe I'm cheap, but I would just do spacers for now...

[harrymaneuvers]

Not maybe...

[jamal]

whoops, I'm bad at reading.

anyway, get the high caster arms and BSF36 is the right shape swaybar for them.

A wider front track is a good thing on these cars and will improve front end grip and reduce understeer. using the wider control arms with wagon struts is also a good thing because it gets you a bit more front camber. I would not worry too much about the rear track and you don't need the spacers.

[Bimmerman]

I went down this path a long time ago. I'm in the bay area (you mentioned I-club) if you want to drive my car or see what I've done. My car's mod list is quite autox/track biased, but it is incredibly well composed and behaved for street/DD use. I modded the suspension with the same goals as you have: to not screw up my DD with ill-thought out parts and too stiff of a setup.

Anyway. The first thing I did was install whiteline front and IPD rear sway bars with whiteline aluminum endlinks. I liked the beefiness of them, but I'm sure there's plenty of other good endlinks. I haven't had interference issues with them, so...yea. The car's feel was transformed, I loved that setup.

Four years later, I decided to go full retard and bought coilovers. Many reasons for that, but the end result is a hilariously fun DD.

However, if I were to do it again, I would do the sways and get a good spring/shock package instead of coils. My preference would be Koni shocks paired with either Whiteline wagon springs (yes, they exist), or Ground Control coilover conversion kit with SOFT spring rates. The reason I'd go with springs/struts instead of coilovers is that you don't need adjustable ride height or dampening unless you're tracking/autocrossing/are a suspension geek.

If you want coilovers....my only advice is to do your research and don't cheap out. Quality dampers are totally worth it once you experience them, but quality doesn't require absurd amounts of money spent: Bilstein, Koni, KW, AST, etc. If you're interested, I'm debating selling my GD wagon-spec coils to fund my racecar; PM me if interested.

Strut braces are good, I noticed a big improvement with a rear brace on my wagon. I wouldn't bother with braces for a DD though, they cut down on cargo room. I have a GD front strut brace I'd happily sell, it doesn't fit my Leggy.

Control arms or adjustable links or different bushings......that's barking up the wrong tree. You won't realize the gains these would provide when you're still using stock shocks/springs and 'meh' tires, so I wouldn't bother. For a DD, money is better spent on a quality damper and spring rates matched to the dampers.

It all depends on your budget. Since you imply this is for your WRX wagon, I'd focus on a quality shock/spring combo paired with a good set of front and rear sway bars, and call it a day at that. Bushings, control arms, etc are not going to provide noticeable improvements of the same magnitude as good shocks/springs/bars. Don't waste your time with braces unless carrying things isn't too important for you.

[/suspension geek]

[harrymaneuvers]

I would not worry too much about the rear track and you don't need the spacers.


I absolutely did need spacers in the rear. The 235/45/17 tires on the 2011 17x8 rim JUST BARELY didnt rub.


The 245/45/17 rubbed the rear strut tower so 5mm spacers were needed. Now I need to roll the rear fenders because they barely rub under hard cornering.

Good advice though... noted.

[Bimmerman]

I would not worry too much about the rear track and you don't need the spacers.


I absolutely did need spacers in the rear. The 235/45/17 tires on the 2011 17x8 rim JUST BARELY didnt rub.


The 245/45/17 rubbed the rear strut tower so 5mm spacers were needed. Now I need to roll the rear fenders because they barely rub under hard cornering.

Good advice though... noted.

You won't rub if you run tires that aren't so tall. 245/40 or 235/40 will be a MUCH better tire. Stiffer sidewalls, much shorter OD, better acceleration gearing, and less rub. 245/45 is freaking gigantic.

[harrymaneuvers]

I know it is huge... but I got four brand new Potenza RE970AS for $350... Couldnt say no.

This is the Fiance's DD so lowering the car does not appeal to me at all. I would be more inclined to get some King Springs that dont add lift or drop but add stiffness.


Any suggestions for springs/shocks that wont drop?

[Bimmerman]

I know it is huge... but I got four brand new Potenza RE970AS for $350... Couldnt say no.

This is the Fiance's DD so lowering the car does not appeal to me at all. I would be more inclined to get some King Springs that dont add lift or drop but add stiffness.


Any suggestions for springs/shocks that wont drop?

I'd recommend the Ground Control coilover conversion kit paired with Konis or Bilsteins. The GC kit allows you to pick whatever spring rate and length you want, so you can keep stock height with stiffer springs, lift it, lower it, w/e you want. I'd pair that with Koni yellow inserts personally, I've had great luck with Konis on my M3.

GC coilover conversion kit: http://www.ground-control-store.com/pro ... I=83/CA=90 (http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=83/CA=90)


HOWEVER: I would go one step further and get the Ground Control Subaru GD fitment coilovers in your desired length. Call them up, but it's an inclusive kit of springs, dampers, strut housings, and front camber plates and rear top mounts. Link:

With rear camber plates: http://www.ground-control-store.com/pro ... =898/CA=90 (http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=898/CA=90)

Without rear camber plates: http://www.ground-control-store.com/pro ... =829/CA=90 (http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=829/CA=90)

The benefit to this setup is that it is shipped completely assembled, will adjust height from 0 to -2inches relative to stock height, and is extremely proven in street and race use. Many friends of mine run their E30 and E36 kits, with varrying rates.

It's pricey, but sounds like what you're looking for. Stock height, stiffer springs, and quality dampers. Depending on your budget, I'd do either the full coilover or the conversion kit on a set of good dampers that you source.

[harrymaneuvers]

Yea the coilovers are a bit overkill. The car is stage 2 and only has 168 whp... even after a bigger turbo/injectors/fuel upgrades, I am going to be lucky to break 250-275 whp considering it is a 4EAT.

Budget: Not going to be buying cheap parts but also dont want to spend money on things that are more for race/autox than they would be for DD and highway comfort.

If my goal was to not overdo it... which order would you be doing upgrades? I would hate to overspend on suspension if the car would never be able to truly benefit from the race/track specific features of coilovers.


1. Sways/Links (This is almost certainly first because it is necessary for widening the front track which is my original goal.)
2. Strut Bars
3. Certain bushings
4. Springs/struts

[jamal]

springs/struts go at the top of that list with swaybars, then bushings. strut bars at the bottom.

[Bimmerman]

1. Sport Alignment
2. Springs/Struts
3. Sways
4. REAR Strut Brace
5. Links
6. Certain bushings
7. Front strut brace
8. Aluminum control arms

In order of what will best meet your goals for a sporty and fun and comfortable daily driver.

Bushings are a grey area; they will do a whole lot of nothing unless you go to stiff bushings, which negatively affect DD-ness. Save upgraded bushings for the track cars, just get new good OEMs or SPTs. Bushings will do absolutely nothing so long as you run crap tires-- you will not see any benefit unless you run actual sticky rubber (same goes for upgraded links, fyi). A front strut brace is pretty pointless on these cars, your money is better spent elsewhere. Like on springs and shocks. Aluminum control arms are all kinds of pointless unless it's a track car. There is zero reason to run them on a street car, as the reduction in unsprung weight is not noticeable on the street or even canyon running.

I know it isn't what you want to hear, but get the idea of upgrading bushings and control arms and links out of your head: they will do nothing for you as far as sporty ride goes, aside from waste your time and money. Springs, struts, and sways will make the biggest difference after an alignment.

[harrymaneuvers]

You might be missing the point Bimmerman.

The wagon is now a widebody with the STI fenders and bumper.

The control arms/sway is not so much for performance as it is to get the front track wider to match the fenders... right now they sit inside of the front fenders by a good amount and it looks weird. Considering the cost for 10mm spacers are around $145 shipped... I might as well do it the right way for a little bit more $$$

Two reasons why I wanted to get the aluminum control arms:

1. I was under the impression that widening the front track of the car would make adding caster desierable... hence the caster adding sti aluminum control arms
2. The difference in cost between two non-sti control arms and aluminum control arms is less than $115 per set... meaning I have been looking for non-sti control arms and the cheapest I have found them for is about $85 shipped. I have seen multiple sets of aluminum control arms go for less than $200 shipped.


I understand that stiffer bushings will impact the DD ability of the car... I was specifically looking at the steering rack bushings, ball mounts, ect...


So I feel as though I have the shopping list down for the widening of the front track:

- Aluminum or non-alluminum lower control arms
- STI or Sedan FSB and links depending on which control arm I use
- New OEM or Group N ball joints/traverse link bushings for the control arms while they are off the car.

Now what about my shopping list for springs/struts. Besides King Springs, what Options do I have for next to no drop?



Thanks for all the input guys... this is exactly why I posted my question here!

[Bimmerman]

Ahhh, gotcha.

For springs that have next to no drop, I would look for a set of the RCE Wagon springs (http://racecompengineering.com/osc/prod ... ucts_id=35 (http://racecompengineering.com/osc/product_info.php?cPath=21_28_31&products_id=35)). Failing that, I'd go the GC coilover conversion kit route ($400, includes any rate spring at any length, height adjustable too). Whiteline might have something, I'm not sure. H&R OE Sport springs (Link (http://www.tirerack.com/suspension/suspension.jsp?make=H%26R&model=OE+Sport+Spring+Set&group=OE+Sport+Spring+Set&partNum=54457.55&autoMake=Subaru&autoModel=Impreza+WRX+Wagon&autoYear=2004&autoModClar=) ) lowers a minute amount, but much less than anything else I've found aside from the GC kit.

For struts, pretty much anything will work. Bilstein, Tokico D-specs, Koni inserts. Tokicos are ~$900, Konis are ~$660 (tire rack), not sure on Bilsteins. Note that I did NOT do an exhaustive search, so you could likely find them cheaper elsewhere.

Some coilovers (ST, KW Variant 1, Bilstein PSS, H&R Street) are moderately priced between $1000-1600 all inclusive, and should allow you to retain stock ride height. Most of these will not be damping adjustable, which reduces cost yet allows the manufacturer to use a quality damper. Depending on the cost of a Spring/Strut package, you might want to cross-shop these.

My best recommendation though would be to call the guys at Flatirons Tuning (303 402 5142), and ask for Preston (tell him David sent you). The shop there has LOTS of experience with WRX wagons and suspensions, so they would know if there's a better solution than I am aware of. They're also a dealer for all sorts of good parts; give them a ring!

[harrymaneuvers]

Exactly what I needed Bimmerman! Thanks!

[tecnica technician]

most of the wagon guys i know here in the bay are running this set up or some thing like it if they auto x and DD the car, Koni inserts, with swift spec r springs, or rce springs (by swift) as for the lower control arms would not touch them, there is not much difference really or huge advantage in the going with the jdm ones you save a bit of wight but its not huge you better off saving the money with getting the whiteline bump steer kit and anti lift kit this will help a lot more when you drop the car i would also recommend that you get some camber bolts the wagons can only get about 1 dagree of negative camber stock most of these guys are autox/DD cars and they prefer to run about -1.5 to -2 in the front and about -1 in the rear as for info on i-club u are better off posting in the bay area section its more active and you will get more help then posting in most other sections

[harrymaneuvers]

Good input Technica... but again... not looking for any drop at all... and the lower control arms are not really a performance thing as much as they are a "widening the front track to match the body" thing.

[harrymaneuvers]

Ok so after a full day of driving around in the WRX, I am now thinking that the GC coilover conversion kit is the way to go.

But considering that I am NOT looking for lowering with the massive tire set up I am running... and I kinda like the look of a beefier, non lowered but also non lifted (looking) wrx wagon.

Anyways... I like the idea of having the adjustable ride height ... not really as much for lowering as I would like for raising.

I am wondering if I could combine forester struts (KYB probably) with a GC coilover conversion kit that would start off higher than the stock wrx height and be able to be lowered to the wrx stock height or lower.

That way I could be at stock height (but stiffer springs) or raise it up for trips through the snow or even stock height on the drive up to oregon and then raise it up once I get to my moms house considering she lives down a 1/4 mile long gravel (mud) private driveway that gets pretty sloppy whenever it has been raining.


****EDIT****


Oh snap... Ground Control is headquartered not too far from here in Shingle Springs, CA. I think I will give him a quick call tomorrow and pick his brain.

[Bimmerman]

When you call, ask for Jay. He's the owner and is super knowledgeable.

Be aware though that any noticeable ride height change will change your alignment, and weirdly. Lowering my car ~1in from stock added 1.1 INCHES of toe out in the front. That's a huge huge amount, so I wouldn't mess with the ride heights often unless you get free alignments. Set it where you want, and leave it.

[harrymaneuvers]

Firestone Lifetime Alignment FTW!!!

I bought the lifetime alignment when I had them install the Potenza Pole Positions so alignments ARE free. I could go multiple times a day if I wanted to and if they could schedule it in.

There is one about 2.5 miles away from where I live here in Nor Cal, and there are a couple that are close to my Mothers house up in Oregon.

:grin: :lol: :cool: :smt023 :smt002

[jamal]

I have done that before on a wrx wagon and stuck with the wrx specific struts. we got it nearly an inch higher than stock and still weren't maxed out on the collars, with room to go down about 2" all around.

However, the standard sleeve kit they will recommend doesn't work for this. They use 8" springs and kind of weird rates. if you are looking for slightly stiffer than stock rates in the 200-250 lb/in range you can actually fit a 12" spring and not even have to preload it.

[harrymaneuvers]

What do you mean Jamal?


Are you saying that you kept the stock wrx wagon struts and just added the wrx ground control coilover conversion kit?

How were you able to get it higher? I was under the impression that the ground control kit goes from 0 to -1.5" drop... I didnt see anything around the ability to raise... that is why I was thinking I would need forester struts.

[jamal]

the standard GC kit for the WRX doesn't go any higher because they use really short springs but at no extra cost you can specify your own spring lengths and rates. If you go to a longer spring you can keep stock height and even raise the car a bit without changing the struts.

keeping the wagon struts is your best option from an alignment and suspension geometry point of view, and you can upgrade them with koni inserts, which happen to be on sale right now. So with konis and ground control sleeves you end up with a high quality height and damping adjustable setup for about a grand. The only good complete coilover system in that price range (ST) does not have adjustable shocks.

[harrymaneuvers]

Perfect. I am going to start gathering the parts... Almost pulled the trigger on a set of sti v7/v8 control arms. I was confused though because I thought the JDM v7 sti spec c and the v8 arms add caster... I didn't think that standard v7 and v8 were the same.

[jamal]

yeah the only jdm arms that add caster are on the spec-c as far as I know. usdm 04-06 is what you should look for.