Rear brake upgrade: Beyond the H6

[unsullied_spy]

I see a lot of people going to the H6 brake upgrade, but my 04 BE came with them stock and I felt that they leave some to be desired. They stop just fine, but after a single panic stop or during "spirited" driving they get really hot and do not cool down quickly. It turns out that 05-09 Legacy GT rear brakes are the same diameter, use the same parking brake, etc. as the BE chassis (prior models will need the same modifications as H6 to fit) but the LGT brakes are vented. They even use the same brake pads so those of you that want to upgrade further it's not too expensive. I bought new calipers w/ brackets and the rotors and within 30-40 minutes I've got brakes that can take the heat! Only been driving on them for about 4 days now but once you get them bedded in they work very well and do not fade nearly as bad as the H6 brakes.

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/06/DSC02963-1.jpg
For a car with factory H6 brakes, these new brakes literally just drop in.

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/06/DSC02965-1.jpg
Vented goodness!

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/06/DSC02969-1.jpg
Goes together like Legos!

[chuckthefuk]

excellent. do you mind if I add this to the brake sticky?

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=20576 (http://www.sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=20576)

[Reason]

This is exactly what I plan on doing for my BD! Nice upgrade

[mlitz]

So it uses the same H6 calipers and pads? Just a vented rotor?

[Wiscon_Mark]

The "H6" upgrade is a misnomer - All BE/BHs have the same rear brake setup (an upgrade for earlier Legacy folks) as they're all pretty heavy vehicles.

I didn't know that the 00-04 setup didn't have vented rotors though.

Are you sure the brake fade, etc are because of your rears? The fronts do 70% of the work, I'd think fade would happen there much more quickly. What do you have on your fronts?

[rougeben83]

your fading issues are mostly coming from the front brakes and the pad compound youre using. Test your setup again and see if you get the same results as before.

[unsullied_spy]

excellent. do you mind if I add this to the brake sticky?

http://www.sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=20576
Absolutely, that would be cool.


So it uses the same H6 calipers and pads? Just a vented rotor?

You will need new calipers as well, the vented rotors are about half an inch wider than the stock ones.


The "H6" upgrade is a misnomer - All BE/BHs have the same rear brake setup (an upgrade for earlier Legacy folks) as they're all pretty heavy vehicles.

I didn't know that the 00-04 setup didn't have vented rotors though.

Are you sure the brake fade, etc are because of your rears? The fronts do 70% of the work, I'd think fade would happen there much more quickly. What do you have on your fronts?

Yep, solid rotors on them. I had a big panic stop from ~65 the other day and the rear rotors were still hot after driving about 20 minutes. You can feel in the way it brakes going into corners that they're heating up. Stock the braking force is strongly biased towards the front but you can still feel the back end wanting to rotate less after they heat up. That panic stop was a big part of what made me want to start upgrading my brakes. People around here seem to be driving worse and worse, stop lights and signs don't seem to apply to people anymore and I try to be prepared to deal with them. Maybe my next mod should be a shotgun in the grill :smt013


your fading issues are mostly coming from the front brakes and the pad compound youre using. Test your setup again and see if you get the same results as before.

My pads work best once you warm them up a bit, they're good cold, but you can feel them grabbing much harder once you warm them up. I haven't measured rotor temps after a blast through a mountain pass or anything but for a street pad they hold up very well to high heat. Still got the stock 31247 front rotors on, need to get new rotors and brackets to go to the Outback/WRX brakes in the front. After that all you can do (cheaply) to beef up the brakes on these is a master cylinder brace (heard lots of good things about these, will probably buy one eventually) and stainless steel brake lines (no idea where to get them though).

[Wiscon_Mark]

Shane (4zero1 motorsports) has stainless steel lines.

[unsullied_spy]

Shane (4zero1 motorsports) has stainless steel lines.
Cool. Direct drop in or is there modification required? I'd prefer a direct replacement, if possible. I may not bother though, the MC brace would be nice for pedal feel plus the new front brakes eventually but as it is I can lock up my tires under hard braking, I don't think bulging brake lines should be at the top of my worry list for the time being.

[rougeben83]

whats the exact pad you're running? Pads run the gambit of their performance capabilities even if they're all labeled "street" pads. I can fade a set of run of the mill bendix pads after a couple of 100-40mph stops, meanwhile I can hammer on a set of hawk hps's for far longer without issue. Goodridge also makes/made ss lines for the 3rd gens, see if anyone still carries those. There was a good difference in pedal feel with those lines, probably a bit more than going to a fixed caliper setup.

Also, none of the MC braces made to fit other subaru's will directly fit a 3rd gen, just a heads up.

[unsullied_spy]

whats the exact pad you're running? Pads run the gambit of their performance capabilities even if they're all labeled "street" pads. I can fade a set of run of the mill bendix pads after a couple of 100-40mph stops, meanwhile I can hammer on a set of hawk hps's for far longer without issue. Goodridge also makes/made ss lines for the 3rd gens, see if anyone still carries those. There was a good difference in pedal feel with those lines, probably a bit more than going to a fixed caliper setup.

Also, none of the MC braces made to fit other subaru's will directly fit a 3rd gen, just a heads up.
Thanks for the heads up, I was JUST looking at MC braces and noticed they stop at '99 for a Legacy.

These are Akebono ProACT pads. I bought them from CarQuest before I started working there because they were the best pads they offered (and said they have a lifetime warranty, including wear). They are very smooth and quiet, and work particularly well once warmed up. They stop just fine at -30 but once you get some heat in them they seem to stop better. Fading isn't bad at all, especially with engine braking and smart use of the brakes but they are not track pads. In the ~20-25k miles I've had them it seems like they've worn the rotors more than the pads, still got plenty of life left. I'm definitely pleased with them though Hawk HPS pads came highly recommended when the time came to replace the pads on my Mustang. The big point of this mod was to reduce brake fade in the rear (they only do 30% of the braking, but once they got hot you do notice a drop in stopping power) and it's so cheap and easy to do. SO many people are doing this "H6" upgrade but it seems like they don't know that for just a few $ more they can get even better brakes, if you're going to do it you might as well do it right. Chances are if your car came with H6 brakes stock (like my BE) you don't need to upgrade but I'm glad I did it. Admittedly part of it was just wanting to upgrade something, but I'm pleased with them.

As a side note: I liked these pads so much I put them on my Mustang and one day after my neighbor and his moddded (intake, exhaust, and a tune I assume) WRX got dusted I ended up having to go from 120 down to about 35 to make the corner going home and they definitely handle hard braking from speed well, it's certainly not a pad issue. I actually blued the under-sized stock rotors on my MGT from the heat but I still had stopping power.

If it's a good difference in pedal feel, the SS lines may be worth it. As it is the top inch or so of my pedal provides minimal braking, then firms up real fast (feels firmer than with the stock brakes, but that could just be placebo). Once you're in the firm part you've got plenty of braking, but I'd like to stiffen it up some more. My Mustang has a pretty firm pedal starting pretty much right at the top, and I'm on my 3rd year with this brake fluid (flushing it this year).

[mike-tracy]

Same rotors as the 2 pot upgrade. :) I wish I could find someone selling just the 05+ lgt rears.

[unsullied_spy]

Same rotors as the 2 pot upgrade. :) I wish I could find someone selling just the 05+ lgt rears.
New calipers are only $60/ea. and the rotors are about $30/ea. Not gonna break the bank too badly :wink:

[Grafton]

why didn't this get posted before i bought my H6 setup for the rear of my car?

:smt022

oh well, H6 is still an upgrade and has more heat capacity than the stock rear brakes for me :D

[anothernord]

So for us BD/BG/BK guys, the hubs/backing plates don't need to be changed to fit the LGT caliper/bracket?

[Bookem]

How about wheels, do the 16" snowflakes fit around BL/BP rear brakes?

[mike-tracy]

So for us BD/BG/BK guys, the hubs/backing plates don't need to be changed to fit the LGT caliper/bracket?

The only time 2nd gen guys need to swap hubs is for 2-pot rears (alternately just use an adaptor bracket). The rear dust shield is in the way, and needs to be removed or hammered back.



How about wheels, do the 16" snowflakes fit around BL/BP rear brakes?

The 16" Subaru rims fit 05 LGT rears.

Note that the "h6" rears fit under 15" oem wheels. Since the 05 LGT rear caliper is only marginally wider, I suspect they'll fit, but haven't tried it.

[unsullied_spy]

So for us BD/BG/BK guys, the hubs/backing plates don't need to be changed to fit the LGT caliper/bracket?

The only time 2nd gen guys need to swap hubs is for 2-pot rears (alternately just use an adaptor bracket). The rear dust shield is in the way, and needs to be removed or hammered back.



How about wheels, do the 16" snowflakes fit around BL/BP rear brakes?

The 16" Subaru rims fit 05 LGT rears.

Note that the "h6" rears fit under 15" oem wheels. Since the 05 LGT rear caliper is only marginally wider, I suspect they'll fit, but haven't tried it.
Thanks for picking this up while I was out :cool:

I have 16" 90s Outback wheels (the ugly ones with the holes on the outter rim of the wheel, Onyx/Gold flake with black paint hopefully soon to come) for my winter tires and they fit just fine with the stock (H6) brakes, these are the same diameter.

Sorry, Grafton, I posted this hoping people would notice and choose the better setup when upgrading (no point in going H6 when this bolts right up to stock H6, and requires the same mods for non-H6 brakes). H6 seems like such a popular upgrade I hoped to shine some light on a better option.

Side note: I've had these on for about a week now and the biggest thing I can say so far under normal driving conditions is that my brake pedal feels stiffer and the brakes seem to respond better. On my way to work I'm doing 55-60 MPH stops fairly frequently and they give a very solid, consistent, reliable feel with the stock fronts. I thought I was going to be late the other day so I was pushing 85 most of the way there and didn't have any issues stopping or with my brakes fading. I'm starting to think upgrading to Outback/WRX fronts will just be a "bling" thing to satisfy my love for big brakes (they just look SO cool pearing out through your alloys!). I hope to do a video sometime showing the stopping power (even if it's with stock fronts) but the rain and ~14 hour work days kinda put a damper on that.

[Wiscon_Mark]

I have 16" 90s Outback wheels (the ugly ones with the holes on the outter rim of the wheel, Onyx/Gold flake with black paint hopefully soon to come) for my winter tires and they fit just fine with the stock (H6) brakes, these are the same diameter.

AFAIK, all 90s Outback models had 15" rims. Picture?

[mike-tracy]

You rock unsullied_spy! Brakes and suspension are a passion of mine, however my experience is pretty much limited to whatever I can score at a junkyard. And believe me, I've tried all those combinations. ;)

[anothernord]

Just put on 05' LGT rears on my Outback; bolted up just fine! They made a huge difference, along with 04 WRX calipers and rotors up front. I can't wait to really see how well they avoid fade.

[unsullied_spy]

AFAIK, all 90s Outback models had 15" rims. Picture?
http://images1.americanlisted.com/nlarge/1999_subaru_outback_wheels_tires_150_00_northeast_philadelphia_11797415.jpg
Not my pic, but those are the wheels I've got. 205/65 R16 Michelin X-Ice.


You rock unsullied_spy! Brakes and suspension are a passion of mine, however my experience is pretty much limited to whatever I can score at a junkyard. And believe me, I've tried all those combinations. ;)
Thanks! I love brakes and suspension as well, primarily suspension. Forza's tuning options are like porn for me, I can literally spend hours dialing in spring rates, sway bar stiffness, etc. I'd love to get a book on tuning real car suspension, at very least to read up on it.


Just put on 05' LGT rears on my Outback; bolted up just fine! They made a huge difference, along with 04 WRX calipers and rotors up front. I can't wait to really see how well they avoid fade.

Sweet! The WRX/Outback fronts are nice, a little extra stopping power plus the extra cooling surface area. Your setup with a good set of pads shouldn't disappoint, especially for what it all costs!

[chuckthefuk]

FYI there are 2 styles of Outback rims for the BG chassis.

Pre 96-98/9
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2011/09/68690silver-1.jpg

Post 98/99
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/06/IMG2011102200020-1.jpg

[Dead91silvia]

Same rotors as the 2 pot upgrade. :) I wish I could find someone selling just the 05+ lgt rears.

Why dont you guys ever look in here?! :smt021

http://car-part.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi

Most of these places ship. B&R is a place I got for my wholesale pused parts when needed. Good place.

[mike-tracy]

Same rotors as the 2 pot upgrade. :) I wish I could find someone selling just the 05+ lgt rears.

Why dont you guys ever look in here?! :smt021

http://car-part.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi

Most of these places ship. B&R is a place I got for my wholesale pused parts when needed. Good place.

I priced out buying each part (turbo calipers, rear L, rear r, turbo rotor rear left and right), from the cheapest places I could find that are 100% turbo parts and it was right over $100 before shipping or any yard pulling fees, etc. I'd rather pay that locally to an individual, where I can see what I'm buying, lol. Already have WRX/H6's on one car so it prob aint going to happen.

[rougeben83]

whats the exact pad you're running? Pads run the gambit of their performance capabilities even if they're all labeled "street" pads. I can fade a set of run of the mill bendix pads after a couple of 100-40mph stops, meanwhile I can hammer on a set of hawk hps's for far longer without issue. Goodridge also makes/made ss lines for the 3rd gens, see if anyone still carries those. There was a good difference in pedal feel with those lines, probably a bit more than going to a fixed caliper setup.

Also, none of the MC braces made to fit other subaru's will directly fit a 3rd gen, just a heads up.
Thanks for the heads up, I was JUST looking at MC braces and noticed they stop at '99 for a Legacy.

These are Akebono ProACT pads. I bought them from CarQuest before I started working there because they were the best pads they offered (and said they have a lifetime warranty, including wear). They are very smooth and quiet, and work particularly well once warmed up. They stop just fine at -30 but once you get some heat in them they seem to stop better. Fading isn't bad at all, especially with engine braking and smart use of the brakes but they are not track pads. In the ~20-25k miles I've had them it seems like they've worn the rotors more than the pads, still got plenty of life left. I'm definitely pleased with them though Hawk HPS pads came highly recommended when the time came to replace the pads on my Mustang. The big point of this mod was to reduce brake fade in the rear (they only do 30% of the braking, but once they got hot you do notice a drop in stopping power) and it's so cheap and easy to do. SO many people are doing this "H6" upgrade but it seems like they don't know that for just a few $ more they can get even better brakes, if you're going to do it you might as well do it right. Chances are if your car came with H6 brakes stock (like my BE) you don't need to upgrade but I'm glad I did it. Admittedly part of it was just wanting to upgrade something, but I'm pleased with them.

As a side note: I liked these pads so much I put them on my Mustang and one day after my neighbor and his moddded (intake, exhaust, and a tune I assume) WRX got dusted I ended up having to go from 120 down to about 35 to make the corner going home and they definitely handle hard braking from speed well, it's certainly not a pad issue. I actually blued the under-sized stock rotors on my MGT from the heat but I still had stopping power.

If it's a good difference in pedal feel, the SS lines may be worth it. As it is the top inch or so of my pedal provides minimal braking, then firms up real fast (feels firmer than with the stock brakes, but that could just be placebo). Once you're in the firm part you've got plenty of braking, but I'd like to stiffen it up some more. My Mustang has a pretty firm pedal starting pretty much right at the top, and I'm on my 3rd year with this brake fluid (flushing it this year).

Those are a good daily driver pad, but I think if you go get some of the more performance oriented pads out there, you'd be surprised by the results. All BE's came with "H6" rear brakes. The "H6" label became popular because WRX owners first found out the bigger rear brakes came from the outback models and never thought to check the regular legacy models and the name just stuck.

The front brakes tended to vary from either the 10.7" front in the earlier models (00-02) to the wrx size 11.4" in the later ones (GT only, L's still got the 10.7").

[unsullied_spy]

whats the exact pad you're running? Pads run the gambit of their performance capabilities even if they're all labeled "street" pads. I can fade a set of run of the mill bendix pads after a couple of 100-40mph stops, meanwhile I can hammer on a set of hawk hps's for far longer without issue. Goodridge also makes/made ss lines for the 3rd gens, see if anyone still carries those. There was a good difference in pedal feel with those lines, probably a bit more than going to a fixed caliper setup.

Also, none of the MC braces made to fit other subaru's will directly fit a 3rd gen, just a heads up.
Thanks for the heads up, I was JUST looking at MC braces and noticed they stop at '99 for a Legacy.

These are Akebono ProACT pads. I bought them from CarQuest before I started working there because they were the best pads they offered (and said they have a lifetime warranty, including wear). They are very smooth and quiet, and work particularly well once warmed up. They stop just fine at -30 but once you get some heat in them they seem to stop better. Fading isn't bad at all, especially with engine braking and smart use of the brakes but they are not track pads. In the ~20-25k miles I've had them it seems like they've worn the rotors more than the pads, still got plenty of life left. I'm definitely pleased with them though Hawk HPS pads came highly recommended when the time came to replace the pads on my Mustang. The big point of this mod was to reduce brake fade in the rear (they only do 30% of the braking, but once they got hot you do notice a drop in stopping power) and it's so cheap and easy to do. SO many people are doing this "H6" upgrade but it seems like they don't know that for just a few $ more they can get even better brakes, if you're going to do it you might as well do it right. Chances are if your car came with H6 brakes stock (like my BE) you don't need to upgrade but I'm glad I did it. Admittedly part of it was just wanting to upgrade something, but I'm pleased with them.

As a side note: I liked these pads so much I put them on my Mustang and one day after my neighbor and his moddded (intake, exhaust, and a tune I assume) WRX got dusted I ended up having to go from 120 down to about 35 to make the corner going home and they definitely handle hard braking from speed well, it's certainly not a pad issue. I actually blued the under-sized stock rotors on my MGT from the heat but I still had stopping power.

If it's a good difference in pedal feel, the SS lines may be worth it. As it is the top inch or so of my pedal provides minimal braking, then firms up real fast (feels firmer than with the stock brakes, but that could just be placebo). Once you're in the firm part you've got plenty of braking, but I'd like to stiffen it up some more. My Mustang has a pretty firm pedal starting pretty much right at the top, and I'm on my 3rd year with this brake fluid (flushing it this year).

Those are a good daily driver pad, but I think if you go get some of the more performance oriented pads out there, you'd be surprised by the results. All BE's came with "H6" rear brakes. The "H6" label became popular because WRX owners first found out the bigger rear brakes came from the outback models and never thought to check the regular legacy models and the name just stuck.

The front brakes tended to vary from either the 10.7" front in the earlier models (00-02) to the wrx size 11.4" in the later ones (GT only, L's still got the 10.7").
I'm very happy with these pads, I had a 3rd gen Eclipse try to play with me through a mountain pass a year or so ago and my stock BE weighed down by 100+ pounds of stereo walked away from him. He had the acceleration advantage but I could brake later and corner harder, and these pads held up extremely well. You could feel the rears start to lose stopping power after some abuse, but that's just because they get so hot. I was able to blue the rotors on my Mustang without the pads giving up, that's enough for me!

I heard about the "H6" upgrade on the impreza forums, actually, and then looked up what brakes my car had and realized they were the same. H6 is a nice way to put it, though, it's short and to-the-point. My whole intention with this thread was to raise some kind of awareness that for about the same price you could have even better brakes. Seems like people found the "H6 Upgrade" and thought that was the best invention since sliced bread. I do an aweful lot of reading, research, etc. into this kind of stuff that would drive most people nuts (see my thread on fog lights and wiring up a factory switch wired up to aftermarket lights, for example) and try to do my best to help the community. I've had these brakes on for about 2 weeks now and my impressions so far are that these calipers seem to give a more positive pedal feel, it still has a little play at the top but then it gets down to business right quick, and under repeated hard braking or even panic braking the car stops better each time (I ran it up to ~100 the other day coming home from work then stomped on the pedal and by the time I got home the rears had cooled down to 132°)

[unsullied_spy]

Turns out I do, in fact, have the 15" Outback wheels. For those who may be wondering these do fit stock 15" wheels. Not by a whole lot (I'd say a quarter inch or less) but they do fit and work just fine.

[chuckthefuk]

+1 ^^^