Head bolts and other things...

[StuMpy77]

Hello, I am new to the forum. My girlfriend's parents bought her a 1998 Legacy Outback a couple weeks back(2.5H4 w/auto trans). I immediately pulled the engine to replace the oil separator cover with the updated metal one because the OEM plastic one was leaking badly. The car came with a timing belt, water pump and a few other parts. The water pump was leaking pretty bad, car had less than a gallon of antifreeze when I dropped it to pull the radiator in prep for pulling the motor. It was driven about 60 miles home from where it was purchased and it's been sitting since. While the motor is out I got the genuine subaru overhaul gasket set(10105AA401) to do head gaskets and pretty much just re-seal everything else. It had a very bad oil leak, mostly from the separator plate but I also believe the valve cover gaskets and possibly an external head gasket leak. It was a total mess under the car, could be rack and pinion issues as well. Cleaned and degreased the engine bay plus the engine before I took it apart. Long story short the condition it was in made me question the head gaskets enough to just do them, car has 152k now. I don't know what the PO did with it or if they overheated it...ever, so I'm doing some preventative work too.

My questions are as follows
1. I don't trust my local Suby dealership(I asked about the gasket set & he couldn't find it...so I gave him the part number!). I ordered the head bolts from them simply because, are you ready for this, they were cheaper for genuine Subaru parts vs Fel-Pro etc. The Fel-pro's I found local for just under $70----for ONE head ie 6 bolts, dealership only wanted $5.85 per bolt or about $70 for the whole set of 12! Either way I know the newer than my engines call for 4 of head bolt part #11095AA141(which go in the 2 center bolt locations) and 8 of the 11095AA123 bolts for the corners. I stopped at the machine shop where I have the heads being worked up(both exh valves on #4 cyl leaked vacuum btw) to look for match marks from the previous head bolts. I can't really tell a difference between the two part number bolts other than the center bolts(the 141s) have black paint on the heads and the washers appear slightly larger(why I was looking for match marks on the heads). Was this an update to help with known head gasket issues in conjunction with the redesigned head gaskets? Did the dealership give me head bolts for a newer 2.5 DOHC motor? Are these the correct bolts and locations for my 98?

2. Adjusting valve lash sounds like a real pita, I'm more familiar with domestic vehicles though I do own a stock 1991 Integra...in which the valve train is quite different. At 152k I assume it would be best to go through and adjust the whole set up, or not usually necessary? I know with having to cut the #4 exhaust valves I'm going to have to more than likely change shims to compensate but is it worth going through the rest of them just to check? (Yeah, I bet I know the answer to this haha). I asked my machinist about just doing the whole valve job while he has the heads and bringing the cams down so he could adjust lash for me. He used the phrase "cost prohibitive" and wouldn't give me a price...which means he either doesn't want to do it or he doesn't want to charge me an arm and a leg for labor. Either of which I do understand lol.

3. The engine exhibited a very slight amount of what I believe to be piston slap, it does go away when the car is warmed up. I've heard this is common and that the pistons are what actually wears, not so much the cylinders in these. Being that it goes away after a minute or two should I even worry about it? I see piston kits online are reasonable and I think I have most of what I need to split the block(which I've also heard is a pain, wouldn't plan on doing crank bearings but prob should if I would go that far eh?). As far as I know you can pull the pistons without splitting the block, not sure I'd want to mess with the pin locks but they came with the gasket set so I could see it being worth removing the pistons to clean carbon from the rings perhaps or even a new set of rings? Do the access plugs for the piston wrist pin locks generally come out okay or am I possibly looking at threads coming with them?

4. What if any truth is there to the whole dirty/bad battery causing the driverside head gasket to fail quicker due to electrolysis of the coolant? I ask because I found a crappy aftermarket thermostat in it(made with copper), a really corroded battery and a fair amount of even white chalky build up/powder in the cooling jackets. Is this a sign of said reaction?

5. Anything else I should be looking for while I have the motor out and down to the short block? I appreciate any input, this is my first Subaru after all but not my first engine refresh by far so finer details appeal to me as well.

Thank you ahead of time for any insight and thanks for reading my lengthy post, I'm usually good for being long winded :) Not sure how to post pics with this format of forum so if anyone needs pics of anything I'll need a quick lesson on posting pictures too lol.

[Dead91silvia]

Welcome to the Forum! Thats one hell of a first post...

It sounds like this motor is gonna love you! 2.5 leak oil no matter what you do. Mine is doing well sense I just did a half assed job doing my HG's back in Jan. The valve covers leak, heads, cam seals, main seals... It's like a Toyota, if it's not dripping or burning oil, somethig is wrong... haha

1. The only parts I get from Subaru when doing HG's are...
-Head Gaskets x2
-spark plugs (I can get the cheaper at the dealer then the parts store)
-extra Cam Cap bolts (2-4). Never fails that at least one gets stripped.
-replace the oil separator plate if it hasent been done.

Everything else it Felpro seals and gaskets because Subaru is crazy high of those parts. I use Gates T-belt kits and a what ever new water pump. I have never done new head bolts and have never had a problem. Had 45K on a set of HG's I did when the motor spun a bearing, other then that, no problems. As for them maybe being different, they could just be the supplier. Also, make sure you get the Updated "Subaru" TQ specs. The HG fix is in the gaskets and the TQ specs if I remember right.

2. As for setting valve lash... no one ever does unless you are having the heads rebuild and if you are, the machine shop I use, does it for you. If you are setting the valves, do it on the motor stand. It's not much of a problem most of the time.

3. Piston slap in normal. Some are louder then others. Mine sounds is loud but only for about 1-3 seconds. Oh, my motor has 275k+ (never rebuilt, just HG's)on it and for the last 30K it's sounded the same (motor was replaced at that time, only one spun a bearing). Dont split the block, unless your going to do a full rebuild. You can get a low mileage motor for $1500-2000 so it's a bit redundant, at least to me. I know some others may disagree.

4. WTF?! Uhhh... Thats a new one on me... If you run coolant too long, thats what happens...

5. Know that a Subaru Boxer motor in NOT a Honda, Nissan, Toyota, or Chevy motor. It's a Boxer. I have built Toyota 22RE's from the ground up, same with Chevy v8's, but a Boxer is different. So most of what you know, does not aply in the same way. I like Boxers better, but thats me. If I have to split a case, I get a new motor, but then I'm a guy that does not do bottom end rebuilds. Some of the guys on here do, but they do it daily.

Posting pics is easy. Use Photobucket or a like sight and use IMG code. There is a page for teaching just that I think in the "help" section.

Hope that helps... I'm a little different them some of the other guys here, so what I have said is from me, not from everyone. I am NOT a 'certified' mechanic, but I do own a shop and Subaru's are my preferred customers. However, most these guys know I know a few things... :smt023

Enjoy! :grin:

[StuMpy77]

Thanks for responding first of all. Okay, sounds like I have a pretty decent handle on it so far. Got a call the heads are done but didn't make it down there today. I see it requires a "special tool" to change lash so yeah I'm going to check them all but leave it to someone else if more is needed. I'm not in the tool making mood lately, too busy but if I wasn't I would consider attempting it :). The car's not in bad shape and I think they got a steal on it imo, $1500 w/152k and a bad oil/coolant leak. It's getting some kyb struts in the rear, 4 tires, plus the leaky rear pinion seal as well(should be fun, don't particularly like gear lube but I'm putting fresh in both of em because that's the way I am). Even if you say $1000 in parts I figure the thing's a steal, plus it had a brand new radiator and all 4 brakes had been done recently including both caliper's in the front when purchased. The timing belt they included was a NAPA labeled Gates unit, water pump was new NAPA unit too with the larger aftermarket style impeller. Not sure who actually makes it but looks decent and is new. I absolutely will NOT install a remanufactured water pump into anything, no exceptions. I don't like re-doing work I've already done which is what happens with rebuilt pumps. I fix cars on the side so my labor is essentially free which is also a big plus.

The only things I got from the stealership were the head bolts(being a Ford guy at heart I know Torque to Yield hb's too well, not to mention I hate pulling motor's during the winter lol), the PCV valve, a few factory rad hose clamps just cause I like them better than your average auto store clamp, and the updated metal separator plate with screws(couldn't find it elsewhere). I managed to get the OEM head gasket set off ebay for about $230 shipped, local places get about $210 for Fel-Pro set(though it does come with valve cover gaskets which I'm going to have to get separately by using the OEM set, which I think is stupid). It was close enough in price I caved in and liked the peace of mind knowing I'd get the proper updated gaskets after everything I read about these EJ25s. The Mizumo gasket set I got for our 93 Ford 3.0L off ebay really sucked, my friend claims they make good quality import application gaskets but in my experience no good for domestics. Half the stuff didn't line up correctly, almost like they were trying to avoid paying Ford copyrights by cutting the gaskets just a little different maybe? Not sure but very leery of going aftermarket after the whole deal as far as head gaskets go. I'll get over that eventually.

I've never heard of the coolant theory either, it came from a company based out of Seattle called All Wheel Drive Auto. I see your in the same state, have you heard of them by chance? They claim the driverside head gasket fails earlier because it's closer to the battery. They also claim it's due to corroded batteries which leak a charge back through the block grounds to the block energizing the coolant and causing accelerated corrosion. I laughed at the picture they showed of the hood liner where they claimed the white staining was an indication the battery was discharging...just about every hood insulation in Wisconsin looks like their example, it's caused by road salt! I know the ground system is set up differently than a domestic vehicle(1-3 large ground cables vs the Subaru's many smaller ground circuits) but seriously? My girlfriends parents aren't car savy but they did some searching, found this information, and decided it was important for me to know and do something about while fixing the rest. I figured it was a load but they were concerned. Little import shyness on my end for not sticking to my guns I guess.

So you think I'll be just fine using the different numbered head bolts even if my application doesn't call for them? It's probably nothing but I'm not an engineer by any means. I am however OCD as all hell and attention to detail is very important to me in all aspects haha! I have a Haynes manual for it and don't care for them much in general, mainly for torque specs, which they commonly seem to have wrong anyway. It doesn't mention anything about the head bolts being different from each other and I couldn't find any info online so I'd just like to make sure. May try calling a different dealership around me if nothing else. I find it kinda funny the dealership I used had the insight to order 4 of one part number and 8 of another regarding the head bolts...yet they can't seem to tell me WHY they did it that way? He had my vin number, did the "computer" tell him to and he doesn't know why at all? I've sold a few parts in my day, always knew why I sold them! I don't want to do all this work and spend the money to do it right only to have it fail for a stupid reason like the wrong head bolts haha. I double checked the one's I removed, they are all the smaller washer type bolts(123s).

PS your comment about Subaru's being like Toyota's made me laugh, I know exactly what you mean. Had a 93 Corolla, whoever decided to use a 3 speed non overdrive auto trans behind the anemic 1.6L should be slapped but that's besides the point. I hate leaky stuff, sounds like a challenge :)

[decke48]

head bolts they gave you where for the SOHC 2.5 and late 2.2's you need p\n 11095AA042 (for all DOHC till 2010)
thoses Mizumo gaskets blow.. did it on a friends car, every seal was rock hard and leaked. plus the HG fail in 10,000 miles.
the bad ground thing is like a old wifes tail. all coolants become corrosive after time, and using the wrong coolant can cause stuff to corrode. like subarus dont like the "green traditional" ethylene glycol. subaru coolant is phosphate (non-amine) type. (does include ethylene glycol but not as pure) traditional green was intended for running in cast iron blocks and brass radiators, never running in aluminum because off corrosive properties. i always recommend running subaru long life or super coolant, phosphate type, or at least a global type coolant

[StuMpy77]

Yes sir, that is indeed what I found out today decke48. My machinist printed off the technical bulletin for me while I was at the shop. It's dated May 2011, TB #2569. Apparently on December 4th 2009 the production line started using a bolt with a different surface coating which is black(the entire bolt I assume). Revised part numbers for these are as follows; DOHC bolt #11095AA160, SOHC corner bolt #11095AA170, SOHC center bolt #11095AA180. According to the cylinder bolt usage chart with the bulletin the bolts I received from my local dealership are the SOHC bolts as mentioned by decke48...which are 191mm long vs the bolts I need (160s or 042s) which are 173mm long. That would have really pissed me off on reassembly, I imagine the longer bolts wouldn't have gotten tight...or worse given a false torque reading from bottoming out and I wouldn't notice because they "seemed" to get tight. The bulletin mentions the "new" black bolts and "old" silver bolts "are interchangeable and can be mixed, however the updated torque procedure must be followed regardless". Just figured I'd throw the information out there in case anyone else is wondering about it.

Do the updated head gaskets still require a thin layer of sealant? Thanks again for all the help so far!

Just called the idiots at Bergstrom, the guy was a dick about it the whole time. Very short with me, I was being nice and guess what? They have to order the CORRECT head bolts which they won't see for almost a week of course and the price is different. Almost $15 PER bolt, more what I expect from a dealership but damn, 3x as much as the SOHC bolts. Lame! I know we're not supposed to bash places but geez, people need to know how bad this parts department is! I mean come on, the parts guy had the vin number for the car after all and correct me if I'm wrong but my engine code is 6, aren't the SOHC motor's vin code M? Letter vs number? Good one dude!

PS thanks for the bit about coolant. You can see what your talking about very clearly when running the old green coolant in an iron block with aluminum heads, makes perfect sense on an all aluminum motor. I saw the "super coolant" on the shelf @ the dealership & did some research. Mainly because I wanted to know what made it so...super.