Why will my engine not go in?! Update! Need help!

[mycargoesvroom]

It's SOOOOOOOOO CLOSE. The Passenger side is 100% lined up and flush but there's a 1/4 inch gap on the driver side. Any one have any tips/tricks/advice for putting a motor back in?


Thanks!

[02_Legacy]

first make sure you don't have anything pinched between the engine and tranny. Generally it is easier to go straight in, you may need to separate the side that is together and then line up both aliment pins and go straight in. The pins are ment to align the engine and transmission so they have pretty close tolerances which may be what is not keeping you from getting that second side together.

[MonstarMotorsports]

Use more muscle!! man handle that b-word into place.

assuming your clutch is properly aligned and theres no issues of you doing it wrong such as something being in the way.
It just takes some slappin it around and showing it whos boss sometimes lol

[grayguy]

if this is a different motor than you pulled out, make sure there aren't 2 alignment dowels on 1 side, I've seen this happen to multiple friends.

[mycargoesvroom]

It's the alignment pins I'm sure of it. I struggled for 4 hours today trying to line everything up perfectly and it finally slides in to place (or so we thought) and then BAM nothing. It WONT move forward. The side with the gap is still showing the alignment pin but it's partially in the motor it just wont go in any further :(


if this is a different motor than you pulled out, make sure there aren't 2 alignment dowels on 1 side, I've seen this happen to multiple friends.
It is a different motor but the alignment pins are correct. One on each side about mid way down the tranny.

[mycargoesvroom]

This is how close it is. The alignment pin on this side appears to be at least partially in the hole on the engine.

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/08/IMG_20120822_203101-1.jpg

[Huffer]

Something pInching under the engine? You're sure the clutch etc is seated right? Nothing in the alignment hole?

[grayguy]

Looks to me like you just need to suck it together with the nuts/ bolts. Out of the dozens of Subie motor swaps I've been part of I can probably count on 1 hand hie many have gone together completely without needing to be pulled together with the bolts/nuts...

[Garrison]

I went through this just the other day, back out the two top bolts, and undo the bottom two nuts, push it around (don't be gentle) and it should finally slide into place; then torque it back down and it should fully close.


Looks to me like you just need to suck it together with the nuts/ bolts. Out of the dozens of Subie motor swaps I've been part of I can probably count on 1 hand hie many have gone together completely without needing to be pulled together with the bolts/nuts...

QFT

[mycargoesvroom]

Looks to me like you just need to suck it together with the nuts/ bolts. Out of the dozens of Subie motor swaps I've been part of I can probably count on 1 hand hie many have gone together completely without needing to be pulled together with the bolts/nuts...

This was my thought as well but when the top/bottom nuts got tight I was starting to worry about messing something up.


I went through this just the other day, back out the two top bolts, and undo the bottom two nuts, push it around (don't be gentle) and it should finally slide into place; then torque it back down and it should fully close.

Completely undo the bottom nuts?

[Garrison]

I mean you don't have to back them completely off of the shaft, but enough that if the motor were to be able to wiggle, it would have space to do so.
Most of the torquing should be occurring with the top two bolts.

[mycargoesvroom]

Ok that's actually what I did. We managed to get the bottom two far enough and put the nuts on just far enough to feel the stud coming through. We started threading the top ones in and gave a good push to get it where it is but it just stopped there. It looks like the alignment pin on the driver side is skewed slightly to the inside causing it to hang. We've tugged, pushed, kicked, pried, and cursed and nothing has worked lol. At this point I think it's best to pull it back out and start over :(

[chuckthefuk]

man handle! but to get some adjustment jack the trans up a bit and wiggle. the amount of pressure you are putting on the bell housing is immense.

[Garrison]

Yeah no need to start over. Just think 2 steps forward and 1 step back.

[mycargoesvroom]

man handle! but to get some adjustment jack the motor up a bit and wiggle. the amount of pressure you are putting on the bell housing is immense.

We had 3 of us pushing and wiggling and nothing :(

I can't get out again till tonight so I'll update a bit later with how it goes.

[Dead91silvia]

Sounds like it might be hung up on the pilot bearing... Pull the bolts/nuts out and man handle the hell out of it and it should side right in. Even now and then I have one thats a PITA to work with. It's all in the clutch/bearing area, if nothing is pinched that is.

[mycargoesvroom]

Could the pilot bearing be the problem even though it's so close to mating? Is there a particular way I should have the clutch?

[Dead91silvia]

Most of the time when a motor dosnt like to go in, it's clutch related. There is only about a 1/4-1/2 in that goes into the pilot bearing, so yes, that could be the problem...

As for the right way, just making sure you aligned the clutch disk right is about it.

[mycargoesvroom]

Aligned as in center? Does the clutch pedal need to be pushed in? Is it possible the pilot bearing is different because the motor was from an automatic car?

Sorry for the barrage of questions lol. I like to be as prepared as possible when doing these things and since I couldn't figure it out on my own you guys are the best place to ask :D

Thank you so much for the help by the way.

[Dead91silvia]

Aligned as in center? Does the clutch pedal need to be pushed in? Is it possible the pilot bearing is different because the motor was from an automatic car?

Sorry for the barrage of questions lol. I like to be as prepared as possible when doing these things and since I couldn't figure it out on my own you guys are the best place to ask :D

Thank you so much for the help by the way.

That might be your problem... I have not had the problem with Subaru's, but I did with a 240sx when I did an Auto to Manual swap... The bushing was bigger then the bearing for the manual...

[chuckthefuk]

Hmmm..
http://opposedforces.com/parts/info/806212020/ ====== 5MT pilot bearing.. Non-interchangeable with 4EAT's

[decke48]

4EAT's dont use pilots bearings theres no need for them.
umm that little of a gap has probably to do with the dowels not lining up good. subarus dowels are really machine fit, unless there perfect aligned they dont go in, either try straighting the motor or pulling it together carefully with bolts in small steps

[mycargoesvroom]

Hmmm..
http://opposedforces.com/parts/info/806212020/ ====== 5MT pilot bearing.. Non-interchangeable with 4EAT's

I'm not seeing what you're seeing in the link for some reason.


4EAT's dont use pilots bearings theres no need for them.

That was my understanding as well. Can anyone confirm/deny?

[chuckthefuk]

click on any "Usage information" and it will show all compatible models that the pilot bearing was used in. All of them are "manual transmissions"

[mycargoesvroom]

Thanks chuck.

So what I'm getting (and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm on info overload at the moment) is that my EJ25 doesn't have a pilot bearing because it was automatic. So I need to move the pilot bearing from my EJ22 to the EJ25 to make the 5 speed trans fit.

[Huffer]

Pilot bearing should be installed on the snout of the manual trans... with the clutch etc.
You did remove the torque convertor from the EJ25, right?

[mycargoesvroom]

Pilot bearing should be installed on the snout of the manual trans... with the clutch etc.
You did remove the torque convertor from the EJ25, right?

Yup, removed all the auto bits from the EJ25.

And I found this:
http://www.rs25.com/forums/f105/t128163 ... orial.html (http://www.rs25.com/forums/f105/t128163-diy-clutch-replacement-pictorial.html)

Which shows me not only do I need the pilot bearing Chuck suggested I also didn't use the correct tool to align the clutch while putting the pressure plate on.

Live and learn I guess. I'm lucky it didn't fit otherwise I'd be in a mess of trouble. Feeling pretty noobish right now haha.

Edit: It appears the bearing is pressed in to the flywheel which should mean it's still on the flywheel correct? I can't check for sure right now because the motor is half bolted in my car.

[chuckthefuk]

What clutch alignment tool did you use then?

[mycargoesvroom]

What clutch alignment tool did you use then?

None, I had no idea it was even necessary. I put the clutch in, screwed the plate on a thread or two, centered the clutch best I could see then tightened the plate down.


Again, I can't thank you enough for the help. I read and read and read and sometimes I miss things like this and I needed you guys to point me in the right direction.

[Huffer]

Most clutch kits come with a plastic tool that helps you to align the disc and pilot bearing. Maybe your local parts shop has one on a loaner program.

[chuckthefuk]

Do you not have a copy of the FSM (factory service manual) for your car? The complete re-and-re procedure are displayed with diagrams and torque specs.

[mycargoesvroom]

A friend of mine just did his clutch a few months ago and thankfully still has the tool. Gunna go ahead and get a new pilot/throw out bearing I guess while I'm in there.

[Huffer]

I think I actually have a spare Exedy t/o bearing I can send to you tomorrow if you want. $20?
Might even have the alignment tool for it too.

[Dead91silvia]

4EAT's dont use pilots bearings theres no need for them.
umm that little of a gap has probably to do with the dowels not lining up good. subarus dowels are really machine fit, unless there perfect aligned they dont go in, either try straighting the motor or pulling it together carefully with bolts in small steps

Nissan's use a hub-centric type bearing, so Subaru may be the same...

[mycargoesvroom]

Do you not have a copy of the FSM (factory service manual) for your car? The complete re-and-re procedure are displayed with diagrams and torque specs.

I don't actually. I've been looking up torque specs as I go.

[mycargoesvroom]

I think I actually have a spare Exedy t/o bearing I can send to you tomorrow if you want. $20?
Might even have the alignment tool for it too.

I'm all set thank you. Had some money laying in Paypal and a $30 off $75 or more coupon from Advancedautoparts so I went ahead and got everything I need except the tool. They have them but none of them seem to be specific to Subaru (although I'm sure multiple car companies use the same spline design) and they're stupid expensive. Hoping someone local has one, if not I'll eBay it.

[grayguy]

if you have a friend with a junk tranny you could cut the input shaft off it and use that, I considered doing it once when I couldn't find any of my alignment tools.

[98legacygt22]

My buddy used a 3/8 socket extension and a socket and it worked for him to line his up. For me I just eye balled it and I must have good vision because it went right in the first try

[02_Legacy]

What I have done when I was doing a clutch with out an alignment tool is find a socket that fits into the pilot bearing and then wrap black tape around the other end so it is the size of the hole in the clutch. I have done this 3 times and it has worked every time on the first time.

[mycargoesvroom]

Pulled the motor out today and confirmed the pilot bearing is in place. :smt026

Going to replace it and the throw out tomorrow and then attempt to put the motor back in. *Fingers crossed* it goes in this time.

Question, would it be a bad idea to back the adjustment pin out a bit and then tap them in once the motor is bolted up? Now that I know everything clutch wise was correct I'm 99% it was the adjustment pin holding the motor out that little bit.

[lord flashheart]

its probably just the allightment dowels. sometimes they get burrs on them or rust or dirt or whatever. and can be little bitches. when its that close, i usually use a bolt to pull it in the rest of the way. if it was clutch alighment issues, you would have a 2-3 inch gap.

[mycargoesvroom]

its probably just the allightment dowels. sometimes they get burrs on them or rust or dirt or whatever. and can be little bitches. when its that close, i usually use a bolt to pull it in the rest of the way. if it was clutch alighment issues, you would have a 2-3 inch gap.

Pesky little buggers. I tried doing the two bolts on either side but they got really tight and I was afraid of stripping the aluminum in the block.

[lord flashheart]

hmmm really? dang... idk what to tell you.. thats what it usually is on my car.

[lord flashheart]

did you jack up the trans with a floor jack?

[Dead91silvia]

did you jack up the trans with a floor jack?

Yes! This must also be done! Also make sure the trans is in neutral... no joke, that held me up once...

[chuckthefuk]

^^ true.. while you're at it unbolt the dogbone bracket on the firewall.

[mycargoesvroom]

Yup. Jack under the trans and dog bone removed.

I think it was just the angle... At least that's what I'm hoping haha.

[Thomistopheles]

Have you tried asking it nicely? :smt102

[lord flashheart]

^Lol!

[mycargoesvroom]

Have you tried asking it nicely? :smt102


No it was quite the opposite actually haha. I yelled, screamed and swore at it loud enough for my neighbors to think I was beating someone!

[Dead91silvia]

Well... you could do this, however a no no... get all the bell housing bolts started and SLOWLY run them in. You do a little at a time and do it like you would a 6 lug wheel... Alternate what ones... I have done this a few times with stubborn motors in the past. It's just not good practice to do so, even more so on cars with aluminum bell housings or blocks...

[mycargoesvroom]

Well... you could do this, however a no no... get all the bell housing bolts started and SLOWLY run them in. You do a little at a time and do it like you would a 6 lug wheel... Alternate what ones... I have done this a few times with stubborn motors in the past. It's just not good practice to do so, even more so on cars with aluminum bell housings or blocks...

I suddenly have visions of aluminum shrapnel :D

[lord flashheart]

^This what dead Silvia said

[Dead91silvia]

And thats why I said I do it VARY little! I did with my 97 OB, my 67 Chevy with a 4 speed (steel on steel), and a few others... but this is not to be common practice...

It can be done, but you need to make sure that the bolts/nuts are going in easy and not flexing. Like I said, at your own risk... It might just be that the dowl pins are mucked up and it will slowly pull together...

[mycargoesvroom]

IT'S IN! No problems what so ever! Now it's time to button everything up, fill it with fluid and start this monster!

[lord flashheart]

fu yea bro.

[Dead91silvia]

Good! now hurry up and get'er done!

[mycargoesvroom]

Good! now hurry up and get'er done!

I want to so bad but the mosquitos are TERRIBLE right now. Have to wait till the AM :(

[chuckthefuk]

So after all this.. clutch alignment.. pilot bearing? what was the issue?

[mycargoesvroom]

So after all this.. clutch alignment.. pilot bearing? what was the issue?


That's the million dollar question! I still have no idea what exactly was causing that small gap.

[lord flashheart]

Like I said most of the time that's those stupid alighnment dowels, that's why I took mine out....jk

[mycargoesvroom]

OK. Everything is in and hooked up except a few things I couldn't figure out.

First is this purple plug and the coolant line behind it.
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/08/IMG_20120829_173051-1.jpg

Second is the coolant fitting coming off the TB
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/08/IMG_20120829_173056-1.jpg

Does the one under the intake manifold hook to the TB? What's the purple plug go to?

[02_Legacy]

I believe all of that is for the Air Assist. The purple plug hooks into the air assist solenoid, I think the "coolant line" in the first pic is one of the nipples for the vacuum side of the air assist port, I think there should be one coming off each intake runner near the injectors and the nipple on the TB assembly is the fresh air supply to the solenoid.

[mycargoesvroom]

The tube in the first picture is between the power steering and alternator. Is the solenoid under the manifold on the passenger side?

[02_Legacy]

This is where it is supposed to be
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/08/5906213752_38c4b70abd-1.jpg
Do you know if your old engine had the air assist? I know you are trading a 2.2 for a 2.5 and I am not sure if any of the 2.2's had air assist. Is the wiring harness from the 2.2 or the 2.5?

[mycargoesvroom]

Yes I took the Phase II EJ22 out and replaced it with a Phase II EJ251. There is nothing on either intake manifold that looks like the picture above.

Oh, and 2.5l engine harness.

[02_Legacy]

Ya looking at your MRII thread I see this pic:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/08/IMG_20120820_125750-1.jpg
No air assist solenoid in this pic. Are you changing ECU's or not. If not your 2.2 may not care if it is there or not. If that is the case just plug the ports on the intake manifold. Other wise if it is not there and the ECU is looking for it it will set a CEL and can cause running problems.

[mycargoesvroom]

There are no ports on the IM for any of that lol.

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/08/ej251-1.jpg

Looks like I'm missing the whole solenoid. But since the ECU isn't going to know the difference I'm going to cap both of them off and see what happens.

[02_Legacy]

ya now that i think about all the other ports (one on each runner near the injectors) will be there but there will be a hose attached to them. all those hoses converge to that one port that you found near the purple plug, regardless if you block off both ports you should be good.

[mycargoesvroom]

Thank you for your help! I should have had it up and running tonight but I wasn't sure about that stuff and on top of everything else I lost one of the fuel lines near the strut tower.

[mycargoesvroom]

Ok everything is back together but I can't get her to start. It's cranking but it just wont go. I'm about to change the plugs (all though I did check the old ones and they were sparking) in the hopes that it just isn't getting enough spark. What else could I be missing? All sensors/lines are installed and accounted for.

Thanks!

Edit: I'm getting spark, and fuel but no start. It cranks, then stops, cranks, then stops. It almost seems like the starter is hitting something? Is it possible not having the air assist solenoid is causing an issue? It seems to give air to the fuel injectors?

Idk... I'm so frustrated and defeated at the moment.

[mycargoesvroom]

Here's a short video. When you hear the car stop cranking it's doing that on it's own.
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2012/08/th_VID_20120831_180141-1.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s150/stangpics01/?action=view&current=VID_20120831_180141.mp4)

[02_Legacy]

did you check the timing belt at all? Could be the timing is set incorrect. Also could be crank/cam sensor causing it to fire at the wrong time. I don't know too much about this 2.2 to 2.5 swap so was everything plug and play? are you sure the sync pulses are the same between the 2.2 and 2.5 for both the crank and cam sensor?

[mycargoesvroom]

did you check the timing belt at all? Could be the timing is set incorrect. Also could be crank/cam sensor causing it to fire at the wrong time. I don't know too much about this 2.2 to 2.5 swap so was everything plug and play? are you sure the sync pulses are the same between the 2.2 and 2.5 for both the crank and cam sensor?

I think the triggers on the cam/crank gears are different between the 2.2 and 2.5. I'm going to pick up an ECU from an EJ251 tomorrow and hopefully that does the trick.

[02_Legacy]

You should pick up the air assist solenoid also then, otherwise you will have a cel and and the engine will be lean during tip in.

[mycargoesvroom]

You should pick up the air assist solenoid also then, otherwise you will have a cel and and the engine will be lean during tip in.

Good call!

Quick question. Since the OBS and the RS are the same minus the motor there's no reason to worry about any wiring issues right? Since I'm using the same ECU that would have come with the EJ251 in a car that's almost identical?

[mycargoesvroom]

IT LIVES!

Swapped in the ECU from an EJ251 and it fired right up! Runs like dog poop, has a CEL and the clutch is slipping but it frickin' runs!

[mycargoesvroom]

Symptoms: Rough Idle, No power, Hesitation while accelerating.

Codes:
Idle Air Control Solenoid
- P1512 (signal 2 circuit low input)
- P1514 (signal 3 circuit low input)
- P1516 (signal 4 circuit low input)

P1111
P1111 Atmospheric Pressure Sensor High Input

I don't have an APS as far as I can tell. If I do it's in the ECU. I cleaned the IACV with carb/choke cleaner and a q-tip with no luck. I unplugged the MAP and bam, smooth idle and returned drivability. Since the codes are for the IACV I assume mine is bad and removing the MAP puts the car in "limp" mode and the ECU ignores the bad IACV. Sound about right?

[02_Legacy]

The ECU can never ignore the IACV limp mode or not. Quick test to see if the IACV is working or not is to turn the A/C on and off at idle. If the revs drop very slightly and then raise a little when the A/C kicks in the IACV is working properly. If the RPM's just divebomb when the A/C kicks in then it is not working. And IIRC the atmospheric pressure sensor is part of the MAP sensor.

[r3v_v3ng3]

I did this swap last year on my friends 96 2.2 (5spd) legacy. He scored a good running phase 2 ej251 from an 01 impreza. This is what I did we used all his stock 2.2 engine wiring harness to the phase 2 2.5 engine. We got everything working good except for the iacv. I just need to custom plumb his old 2.2 iacv (that was bolted into the old manifold) to the phase 2 intake manifold. The phase 2 iacv is actually on the throttle body. Were actually using his old 2.2 ecu also. He daily drives it and only gets the iacv code.

Phase 1 iacv is on the manifold (3wires) and tps sensor is also 3wires while the phase 2 iacv is on the throttle body (4wires) and the tsp sensor also have 3 wires. Even if you use the ej251 phase 2 engine wiring harness and ecu, the harness that goes to the ecu don't have the extra wires. I would suggest you use your old engine wiring harness. Let me know and I'll explain all the things we had to do to make it work except for the iacv

[r3v_v3ng3]

What year car is the engine on again? I'm thinking you have a 2nd gen legacy (if i remember correctly from your avatar)

[mycargoesvroom]

I did this swap last year on my friends 96 2.2 (5spd) legacy. He scored a good running phase 2 ej251 from an 01 impreza. This is what I did we used all his stock 2.2 engine wiring harness to the phase 2 2.5 engine. We got everything working good except for the iacv. I just need to custom plumb his old 2.2 iacv (that was bolted into the old manifold) to the phase 2 intake manifold. The phase 2 iacv is actually on the throttle body. Were actually using his old 2.2 ecu also. He daily drives it and only gets the iacv code.

Phase 1 iacv is on the manifold (3wires) and tps sensor is also 3wires while the phase 2 iacv is on the throttle body (4wires) and the tsp sensor also have 3 wires. Even if you use the ej251 phase 2 engine wiring harness and ecu, the harness that goes to the ecu don't have the extra wires. I would suggest you use your old engine wiring harness. Let me know and I'll explain all the things we had to do to make it work except for the iacv

The only codes I'm getting at the moment are the IACV codes.

I put an ECU from a 2001 Forester in today and although the codes are still there the car runs great. I may try swapping just the engine harness before swapping timing bits because I'd really rather not swap cam/crank gears.


What year car is the engine on again? I'm thinking you have a 2nd gen legacy (if i remember correctly from your avatar)

The car is a 2000 Impreza OBS and the engine is from a 2001 Forester. Both are phase 2 motors.