EJ25d heads on a EJ22, bad knock: UPDATE 1/26 VIDEO UP

[shredtahoe]

I am doing a turbo EJ22/EJ25D heads project, but ran into some big fitment problems that I didn't have time to address before heading back to school. So far, I have done the swap over to the EJ25D heads on the EJ22 block with some custom 0.075" MLS head gaskets from cometic (drops CR to about 8.5:1, head gaskets were the 98mm bore for the EJ22). After I had the thing all the way back together, I started it up and it had an AWFUL knocking noise. This was accompanied by no check engine lights or other warning lights, but the idle immediately jumped to about 2300-2500 rpm. Vacuum is around 20 in hg at this rpm.

Aftermarket parts currently on the car:
-Walbro 255lph fuel pump
-NGK G-power platinum spark plugs for a WRX (gapped at .030)- I know these are absolutely incorrect for the car in its current state, but would it really be this big of a problem?
-Thicker head gaskets

Stock EJ22 parts
-block and internals
-any sensors on the block
-fuel lines attatched to the intake
-injectors

EJ25D (JDM) parts
-Heads and related sensors
-Water neck and sensors
-Intake
-Fuel rails
-ignition coil
-plug wires

Any ideas? I made sure the timing belt was put on right so there's definitely no interference there, and the thick head gaskets make it impossible for the pistons to contact the heads. The ej22 ran perfectly with the original heads in the car before i pulled it, with no knock.

Thanks guys

[1996Battlewagon]

How long did you let it idle? .030 is a bit small considering a EJ25D is supposed to be at .044. What computer are you using?

[shredtahoe]

I started it a few times, the longest I left it running was about 3 minutes so i could clear out a garage spot. Yeah, it is a big difference on that plug gap, but could that actually cause that much knock?

edit: running the stock 1997 usdm ej22 ecu

[r3v_v3ng3]

Just wondering what headbolts did you use

[Garrison]

Did you prime the oil pressure before you started it? I.e. crank it a few times (10sec, x3 or so) with the plug wires detached from the coil pack.
Plugs are not your problem.

[1996Battlewagon]

I started it a few times, the longest I left it running was about 3 minutes so i could clear out a garage spot. Yeah, it is a big difference on that plug gap, but could that actually cause that much knock?

edit: running the stock 1997 usdm ej22 ecu

I mean, it shouldn't be THAT bad but it would be noticeable. I agree with Garrison, it sounds like it might be an oil pressure issue.

And why are you running the 2.2 ECU? That thinks your engine has two camshafts, not four...

[shredtahoe]

No, I did not prime it like i should have. Oil pressure light went away 3 seconds after i started the car. As for the ecu, everything i have read has led me to believe that an EJ25 will drop into a car that came with an EJ22, which is essentially what I did considering the heads are the main difference between the two engines as far as sensors go. Please tell me if I am wrong thinking this as it could totally be my issue!!

[shredtahoe]

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=1151674 (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1151674)

according to this at least, the heads should plug and play with my ecu.

[lord flashheart]

i dont want to toot my own horn, but i was one of the reverse frankenmotor pioneers. (thats what i think anyways. at least i dont remember alot of people using that setup when i started using it, now it seems like everyone is trying it.)

so am i right in thinking that it was knocking right from start up?
usually if it knocks right from the enitial start, its not a rod.
the list of things ive seen make noise right from enital start is:
-main bolts loose
-timing component bolts loose
-cam gears loose
-cam caps loose
-flywheel loose
-wrong size bearings...... this is the BIG one. i know many seasoned machinist fuck this up. sometimes the size is mis-packaged. you got to check ever bearing half for the size stamped on it. 98% of the time they are packed correctly. but if you dont catch the other 2%. god help you. i had it just the other day on my friends motor luckly we caught the .010 in the STD box
-to thin of head gasket (this doesnt apply to you cuz with this engine you usually only need, about .030 of compressed head gasket thickness.. you have .070 so i think your fine there)

pull your oil filter, have a shop cut it open to see if there is any metal in the oil.
(most shops will have the tool.)

[shredtahoe]

i dont want to toot my own horn, but i was one of the reverse frankenmotor pioneers. (thats what i think anyways. at least i dont remember alot of people using that setup when i started using it, now it seems like everyone is trying it.)

so am i right in thinking that it was knocking right from start up?
usually if it knocks right from the enitial start, its not a rod.
the list of things ive seen make noise right from enital start is:
-main bolts loose
-timing component bolts loose
-cam gears loose
-cam caps loose
-flywheel loose
-wrong size bearings...... this is the BIG one. i know many seasoned machinist fudge this up. sometimes the size is mis-packaged. you got to check ever bearing half for the size stamped on it. 98% of the time they are packed correctly. but if you dont catch the other 2%. god help you. i had it just the other day on my friends motor luckly we caught the .010 in the STD box
-to thin of head gasket (this doesnt apply to you cuz with this engine you usually only need, about .030 of compressed head gasket thickness.. you have .070 so i think your fine there)

pull your oil filter, have a shop cut it open to see if there is any metal in the oil.
(most shops will have the tool.)

correct, right from start-up, but the oil pressure light goes off just as quickly as my brothers '02, so I think oil pressure/ rod bearings are fine. I'm thinking its ignition related, as I've had an idler pulley go bad on a different subaru and this doesn't sound anything like that. It sounds more similar to when I installed too thin of head gaskets on my brother's car (ej25d short block, ej251 heads).

-nope, stock, non-rebuilt shortblock that ran great when pulled
-doubt it, will check
-possible, will check
-doubt it, torqued them to spec out of haynes manual
-nope, clutch/ flywheel/ pressure plate wasnt touched like the shortblock
-nope
-my thoughts exactly, these pistons dont come above the deck much if at all (at least not like the ej25d, learned that the hard way with my brother's car haha)

Thanks for your help so far everyone!

[98legacygt22]

Check and see if any of the cams are walking. That happened to me and I thought it was a rod knock the whole time.

[EJ22D]

If the noise is coming from the heads, the cams are a bit loose, I's suspect.
I have built 2 of these DOHC EJ22s (I'm driving my latest variation in a Legacy GT Limited) & if there was no knocking noise from the block, then there shouldn't be any when you put the DOHC heads on.
As for the pistons, they come up above the deck slightly but don't be fooled, the DOHC setup is still interference & those pistons will kiss the valves if something goes wrong.

As for checking the oil, get a magnetic oil drain plug.
That was one of the first things I purchased upon building up the DOHC EJ22 & it is invaluable.
Regarding the ECU, that engine would be happier on the 25D ECU as it operates a little richer & is more "open" to changes that will affect operation & rpm (higher redline).
For the plugs, gap them to stock EJ25D specs until you bolt the turbo on.

The 25D heads are such a significant upgrade/change over the 22E heads that you now have to treat & service the engine as if it were more of a "de-bored" 25D rather than a 22E.
Also, swapping over oil pumps would be a great idea, if you haven't already since the 25D pump is better suited for the 25D heads than the 22E pump.

I hope my input helps!

[shredtahoe]

If the noise is coming from the heads, the cams are a bit loose, I's suspect.
I have built 2 of these DOHC EJ22s (I'm driving my latest variation in a Legacy GT Limited) & if there was no knocking noise from the block, then there shouldn't be any when you put the DOHC heads on.
As for the pistons, they come up above the deck slightly but don't be fooled, the DOHC setup is still interference & those pistons will kiss the valves if something goes wrong.

As for checking the oil, get a magnetic oil drain plug.
That was one of the first things I purchased upon building up the DOHC EJ22 & it is invaluable.
Regarding the ECU, that engine would be happier on the 25D ECU as it operates a little richer & is more "open" to changes that will affect operation & rpm (higher redline).
For the plugs, gap them to stock EJ25D specs until you bolt the turbo on.

The 25D heads are such a significant upgrade/change over the 22E heads that you now have to treat & service the engine as if it were more of a "de-bored" 25D rather than a 22E.
Also, swapping over oil pumps would be a great idea, if you haven't already since the 25D pump is better suited for the 25D heads than the 22E pump.

I hope my input helps!

When all you guys keep saying cams, do I need to overtighten them? I'm pretty sure I went through and tightened all the cam caps down to the correct torque spec, but I can double check. I'll obviously also check the cam gears when I'm in there and do the spark plug gapping. I may actually have one of those magnetic drain plugs lying around.

Can I simply plug and play with the EJ25D ecu? or do I need to do some cutting and splicing to make that work?

[EJ22D]

If the noise is coming from the heads, the cams are a bit loose, I's suspect.
I have built 2 of these DOHC EJ22s (I'm driving my latest variation in a Legacy GT Limited) & if there was no knocking noise from the block, then there shouldn't be any when you put the DOHC heads on.
As for the pistons, they come up above the deck slightly but don't be fooled, the DOHC setup is still interference & those pistons will kiss the valves if something goes wrong.

As for checking the oil, get a magnetic oil drain plug.
That was one of the first things I purchased upon building up the DOHC EJ22 & it is invaluable.
Regarding the ECU, that engine would be happier on the 25D ECU as it operates a little richer & is more "open" to changes that will affect operation & rpm (higher redline).
For the plugs, gap them to stock EJ25D specs until you bolt the turbo on.

The 25D heads are such a significant upgrade/change over the 22E heads that you now have to treat & service the engine as if it were more of a "de-bored" 25D rather than a 22E.
Also, swapping over oil pumps would be a great idea, if you haven't already since the 25D pump is better suited for the 25D heads than the 22E pump.

I hope my input helps!

When all you guys keep saying cams, do I need to overtighten them? I'm pretty sure I went through and tightened all the cam caps down to the correct torque spec, but I can double check. I'll obviously also check the cam gears when I'm in there and do the spark plug gapping. I may actually have one of those magnetic drain plugs lying around.

Can I simply plug and play with the EJ25D ecu? or do I need to do some cutting and splicing to make that work?

Don't over tighten them but do inspect just to see if there is excess play anywhere.
That magnetic plug will help tons once you fire the engine up & drain it after about 1k of driving around.
Any 25D ECU will plug right into a 2nd gen 22E harness (plugs for the ECU are the same) & will run SOHC or DOHC USDM Phase 1 OBD2 cylinder heads. The 25D is much more aggressive than the 22E ECU & is perfect for 22Es & 25Ds. It smooths out 22E power & it will bring out the best that combined engine has to offer.

[lord flashheart]

Ha. No.
The 1995 legacy will not interchange with any other ecu.
Also the 96 will plug into the others but the tune will be
Kinda far off. And if i recall the 96 has a 6k rev limit. 1997-1999 are more swap frendly. Also you have
To check other stuff cuz the mt and auto are diff as well as egr or non egr.

To answer your question the proper torque spec is 140 inch pounds on the large bolts
And 120 inch pounds on the small ones.

Did you check you valve lash?
Could it be a exhaust valve not sealing? Ive seen people mistake the sound before..
Ive also seen people drop stuff in the ports or leave something in the bore...

Last guess... Are the cams mixed up? meaning left cams in left head and intake cams in the intake?

Please post a video of the noise.

[EJ22D]

Ha. No.
The 1995 legacy will not interchange with any other ecu.
Also the 96 will plug into the others but the tune will be
Kinda far off. And if i recall the 96 has a 6k rev limit. 1997-1999 are more swap frendly. Also you have
To check other stuff cuz the mt and auto are diff as well as egr or non egr.

To answer your question the proper torque spec is 140 inch pounds on the large bolts
And 120 inch pounds on the small ones.

Did you check you valve lash?
Could it be a exhaust valve not sealing? Ive seen people mistake the sound before..
Ive also seen people drop stuff in the ports or leave something in the bore...

Last guess... Are the cams mixed up? meaning left cams in left head and intake cams in the intake?

Please post a video of the noise.

I did not know about the 95 22E ECU (I'm just using the block) only the 96-99 stuff. I know for a fact that 97-98 ECus are interchangeable. 96-98 22E ECUs have a 6k rpm limit & 97-99 25D ECUs have a 6.5k rpm limit.

[shredtahoe]

Looks like I'll be making the switch to an ej25d ecu sometime soon, mine is a 1997 so no issues with a 97-99 ecu. I would if i was with the car. I'll see If my brother can put one up.

[EJ22D]

Looks like I'll be making the switch to an ej25d ecu sometime soon, mine is a 1997 so no issues with a 97-99 ecu. I would if i was with the car. I'll see If my brother can put one up.

My first Subaru was a 97 & I used a 25D ECU in it flawlessly. One of the best small mods I've ever done. Having DOHC heads opens the power potential up a little more above the SOHC heads since they flow much better for midrange power.

[shredtahoe]

Alright I had my brother check to see if it knocked while hitting the starter with the spark plug wires unhooked and he said he didn't hear anything. Im now thinking its most likely fuel or ignition, although it could still be mechanical (cam caps loose, loose timing belt gears/pulleys).

I'm going to start by seeing if the correct spark plugs would fix it, hey they shouldnt hurt right?

[EJ22D]

Alright I had my brother check to see if it knocked while hitting the starter with the spark plug wires unhooked and he said he didn't hear anything. Im now thinking its most likely fuel or ignition, although it could still be mechanical (cam caps loose, loose timing belt gears/pulleys).

I'm going to start by seeing if the correct spark plugs would fix it, hey they shouldnt hurt right?

You'll hear knocking if the car starts funny or if the fuel/ignition timing is off, like when you try starting a car & the engine just catches ignition but doesn't want to keep running & shuts off immediately.

Cover all of your bases just to make sure.
Triple check everything if you have to.

[shredtahoe]

Will be double and triple checking everything tomorrow.

Things I plan on checking:
Cam caps
Timing belt pulleys/gears
Spark Plugs (maybe wires too?? REALLY doubt its the wires though)
Fuel pump (since i switched to a walbro 255)
Camshaft position sensor

Am I forgetting anything??

Will post a video of the noise ASAP as well.

[shredtahoe]

One more thing, I used the fuel lines from the EJ22, would this potentially cause any of these problems??

[shredtahoe]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/X7cxLpN7jOg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Here is a video of the knocking. Its not the timing belt or any related pulleys/gears, and its not the passenger side camshaft caps. Will dig into the drivers side after dinner, also swapping to correct spark plugs while I'm in there.

[harrymaneuvers]

Oh man... I am no expert... but that doesnt sound good at all.

Sounds like what mine sounded like when it spun a bearing but just a little different. I drove mine until there was only about 10% power left.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz1r0dvHQMw&feature=plcp

[shredtahoe]

Im just giving up on these EJ25D heads. It stinks, because they flow so much better than my stock heads. I'll be swapping back tomorrow and hoping that I don't have any more issues as I will be trying to drive back to school late tomorrow or early monday. Thanks for your help guys

[lord flashheart]

yeah that sound like bottom end damage.
the speed of the sound is too fast to be in the head.
the speed the camshafts turn is 1/2 that of the crank shaft.
so if its the cylinder head, its likely dropped guides. which isnt comon on those heads, or a broken thrust on the cams. which is less comon.
i would pull your oil filter and cut it open. look for metal.

[shredtahoe]

Its not the bottom end. I pulled the motor and blitzkieg'd putting it back together with the EJ22e heads, and NO MORE NOISE! I still am clueless as to what the heck was going on that was causing that, as when I tore the motor back down I didn't find a single mistake that I had made. Looks like i'll be going turbo with the 22e heads instead!

[L.Michael]

The higher pitch sound makes me believe it was more of a metal rubbing on metal sound, rather something broken. Could be something like the oil wasn't flowing, or maybe even the torque plate wasn't fastened properly to the torque converter. Would be interested in further knowledge on this however. Did you do a tear apart documentary?

[lord flashheart]

I agree with the above statment

[shredtahoe]

It could have been metal on metal. Haven't torn into the heads yet, may take a look at them sometime soon. I still suspect there could have been ignition issues. Also, its a 5mt so no torque converters :)