1996 Outback

[no1subarufan]

My friend and I just got back from test driving a 1996 Outback with 196,000 miles. It needs 1 new cv joint, clutch, minor body work, some minor rust repair and other small things we could tell from just test driving it. Is $2100 cash a good price for a well used Outback and what major differences are there between a legacy and outback?

[Wiscon_Mark]

Outback has the EJ25 Engine, as well as a lifted suspension (2.5" above the Legacy) and usually comes with other amenities on the interior. It also comes with a more rugged fascia and larger foglights (good for putting Hella 500s in as well).

Yes, I would say that's a good price. My vehicle bluebooks at 3500 w/ 184k and it's older. I would say you're getting a decent deal. Subarus can last forever with good matinence (mostly just changing the oil :smile:)

[SHOfast]

That is a great price for any car that still runs well.

Pay attention to how the previous owner may have taken car of it, if it looks like they stopped caring for it I would be worried. These subaru's last forever when they are taken care of correctly. Take it for a good long test drive and don't be afraid to drive like you would do normally, too often people grandma drive on test drives. Don't do things that are not good for the car but see if it is smooth on the interstate and let it get some revs to make sure it has no performance problems.

[SubiDude]

My friend and I just got back from test driving a 1996 Outback with 196,000 miles. It needs 1 new cv joint, clutch, minor body work, some minor rust repair and other small things we could tell from just test driving it. Is $2100 cash a good price for a well used Outback and what major differences are there between a legacy and outback?

I'm the one wanting to buy the outback. The thing I am worried about is that when I tried to down shift I could put it in a lower gear but if I tried to let the clutch out the whole car would start to vibrate and the engine would almost die. I thought it might be the clutch slipping but that wouldn't kill the engine would it?

[Wiscon_Mark]

no, if the clutch were slipping, the engine wouldn't try to die.

[SubiDude]

no, if the clutch were slipping, the engine wouldn't try to die.

What would it feel like if the clutch was slipping and I tried to down shift?

[Wiscon_Mark]

If it was slipping, the engine wouldn't slow the car down as fast. If you're downshifting, you're suddenly engaging the engine at a higher RPM, so there's more friction, and the engine will want to slow down quicker. If the clutch was slipping, it wouldn't be forcing the engine to do so as quickly, and the engine would have an easier time of it. Pretty much the opposite of what you described.

[SubiDude]

If it was slipping, the engine wouldn't slow the car down as fast. If you're downshifting, you're suddenly engaging the engine at a higher RPM, so there's more friction, and the engine will want to slow down quicker. If the clutch was slipping, it wouldn't be forcing the engine to do so as quickly, and the engine would have an easier time of it. Pretty much the opposite of what you described.

What could be causing the vibration when tring to down shift. I wasn't tring to shift into 2nd doing like 60 or anything. Just coming to a red light or stop sign.

[Wiscon_Mark]

I would say that has something to do with a loose bushing, or a missing one. But don't quote me on that, it could be a number of things.

[SHOfast]

If you were not doing a down shift like one where you are about to pass someone it could be that you are still shifting into a gear that would lower the rpms. If this is the case it could be something with the clutch causing it to be grabby or leaking down. Just an idea.

The motor/trans mount issue otherwise is a good place to start.


Are you blipping the throttle for the down shift? Could the motor be choking down when the revs are being pushed up?

[Wiscon_Mark]

I can't see the motor choking down if it's a clutch issue. Unless the clutch is some Rally clutch, which is rock hard, and stronger than the engine.

I doubt that :lol:

[SubiDude]

I would say that has something to do with a loose bushing, or a missing one. But don't quote me on that, it could be a number of things.

I'm guessing you mean a bushing in the transmission? I know alot about cars, but not that much on transmission.

[Wiscon_Mark]

Yes, that's what I meant. There are springs, bushings, and other wear items that can cause odd tranny behavior.

[SubiDude]

It didn't seem like there was anything wrong with the trans. It would shift fine. Wasn't hard to get it into gear or up shift. How hard is a manual trans to rebuild? I know it can't be half as hard as a auto.

[BAC5.2]

What gear are you downshifting into, and what RPM?

A really sloppy set of shifter bushings, and a person unfamiliar with how to drive a subaru with a manual transmission, could "downshift" you into 3rd gear instead of first, or 4th gear instead of second.

There isn't any reason the engine would almost die and the car vibrate badly if you are properly downshifting.

Engine RPM should be proportional to speed. If it's not, then you are either in the wrong gear, or something is definately wrong.

[SHOfast]

I can't see the motor choking down if it's a clutch issue. Unless the clutch is some Rally clutch, which is rock hard, and stronger than the engine.

I doubt that :lol:

I would not be calling it a clutch issue if it was choking down. When the rpm's are pushed up more air is needed for the motor to breath, even if you are off the gas. The correct mixture is still required for the engine to not go dead lean/or dead rich or generally mis-behave. This was more common is carb'd cars, some are so picky that they choke when you try to coast while in gear. Something vacuum actuated is usually to blame in this situation.

[SubiDude]

What gear are you downshifting into, and what RPM?

A really sloppy set of shifter bushings, and a person unfamiliar with how to drive a subaru with a manual transmission, could "downshift" you into 3rd gear instead of first, or 4th gear instead of second.

There isn't any reason the engine would almost die and the car vibrate badly if you are properly downshifting.

Engine RPM should be proportional to speed. If it's not, then you are either in the wrong gear, or something is definately wrong.

Thats exactly what I was thainking last night. The shifter was so sloppy you couldn't even tell if it was in gear, and the only gear I tried to down shift to was from 3rd to 2nd. I'm going to go test drive it again to see. The guy took $500 off because I said it needed a new clutch.

[BAC5.2]

Sounds like you were downshifting into 4th :).

SHOfast - On decel, Subaru's cut fuel. Still sparks, but no fuel. Not super lean, because nothing is burning. The compression stroke is a "braking" stroke, and there is no power stroke. That's why engine braking is also called compression braking. You are banking on the fact that the engine isn't actually making any power to slow you down. If fuel and spark were still supplied, then you'd have a power stroke and that wouldn't slow you down very much, now would it?

[SHOfast]

Sounds like you were downshifting into 4th :).

SHOfast - On decel, Subaru's cut fuel. Still sparks, but no fuel. Not super lean, because nothing is burning. The compression stroke is a "braking" stroke, and there is no power stroke. That's why engine braking is also called compression braking. You are banking on the fact that the engine isn't actually making any power to slow you down. If fuel and spark were still supplied, then you'd have a power stroke and that wouldn't slow you down very much, now would it?

Actually it would still slow you down. Add a pulse light to your injector circuit, it will still flash while you are decelerating, just not as long. One of the inputs on the car is the throttle position sensor that is checked for throttle demand along with the air sensor. These work together among others to determine the mixture required. While accelerating will call for a fatter fuel curve for the amount of air, decelerating does not just kill all fuel or spark, there are also different spark advance curves and things like that. When the throttle is closed the idle circuit is active, the air sensor is still reading, fuel and spark is still being controlled, when these go out of order the car does behave badly.

Ever hear a car/truck backfire while decelerating?

[Wiscon_Mark]

SHOfast is right about there still being air, therfore there is fuel. IAC valve ;)

However, the principle is the same, there is a heck of a lot less fuel in there.

[scottzg]

bac is right, except at high rpm. (4200? i forgot)

[Wiscon_Mark]

There has to be some fuel. Otherwise it would have to be super-lean, because there is air moving in (via the IAC valve, and PCV valve) to adjust to the change in air pressue when the engine strokes. I think it's just not enough fuel to make the engine push the car faster...

I could be entirely wrong, but it makes sense to me. I really don't see how the engine could all of the sudden be completely devoid of air.

nice ninja edit, Scott

[SHOfast]

Thanks for the backup wiscon_mark.

Modern fuel injection systems do this so transparently its easy to ignore, until you have a problem. Ever watch GT racing where the cars have fire shooting out of their side exhausts while decelerating? The tune that those cars sometimes run have a mean low throttle fuel curve.

So what was the deal with the 1996? Hope it was something simple like 4th gear and not something more serious.

[scottzg]

mistake earlier, injectors are shut off above 1800rpm with closed throttle.

I have no idea about vehicles that have been retuned, just factory ej.