cams and heads

[BuruKid]

Anyone one done heads and cams? I found cams at boxer4racing.com and I read you can take heads off of RS's. Anyone with any info on prices to buy and get installed or any info on gains would be great. I drive a 98' 2.2 with 100k.

[Wiscon_Mark]

You can do any EJ heads, not just RS ones.

[sheepdog]

Remember though, you have to pull the motor to do heads. You're gains will not be significant for the amount of money youd spend I don't think.

[Plays_with_Toys]

Delta cams are supposed to be good for gains between 10-15hp. I'll be doing mine next semester.

[BuruKid]

Yeah I looked at the heads after i posted and thought how do they get those off. oh well. Were can you get the delta cams? and how much would an install run? $300?

[Plays_with_Toys]

Delta cams are a send in regrind. You're car will be down for a week. Cost is $75 per cam. So with the SOHC 2.2's, you're looking at $150 for the cams, plus shipping there and back ($50?), and then install $400 and up. Unless you do it yourself. It'd be a good time to do timing belt, since you'd have to pull the timing belt off to get the cam gears off. You could also service your HLA's and clean out the oil lines with the rocker assemblies off.

So if you do the labor yourself, maybe $300 including timing belt and the crank/cam seals. General maintenance you can do in that area ahead of time.

[rougeben83]

that's why you go to a junkyard, forum or ebay and get a set off cams from someone else, send those in and resell your stock ones later.

No down time. Same can be said for heads...A good P&P job from a local shop on your heads with some port matching will only add to the gains youcan make from cams.

Lastly, get a PP6. For that amount of work you're going to do with the heads and cams, the PP6 will optimize your timing and fuel even moreso, and you'll get much better gains in power, drivability AND fuel economy than if you just did the mechanicals without the ecu work to support it.

[BuruKid]

pp6? some kind of ems?

[Wiscon_Mark]

pp6? some kind of ems?

yes, there's that and PP7 from Rallitek.

[Plays_with_Toys]

that's why you go to a junkyard, forum or ebay and get a set off cams from someone else, send those in and resell your stock ones later.

No down time. Same can be said for heads...A good P&P job from a local shop on your heads with some port matching will only add to the gains youcan make from cams.

Lastly, get a PP6. For that amount of work you're going to do with the heads and cams, the PP6 will optimize your timing and fuel even moreso, and you'll get much better gains in power, drivability AND fuel economy than if you just did the mechanicals without the ecu work to support it.

Yep. There are junked subies all over. In fact, an entire EJ22 just sold on craigslist for $200. I'm going to pull the cams off of one of those.

[BuruKid]

well i was on rallitek and it said the pp6 was only for 2.5's i have a 2.2, is this a problem?

[bubaru21]

what about throwing in a set of aftermarket 2.5 heads to make your 2.2 turbo ready? as opposed to finding a set of stock 2.5 heads

[BuruKid]

Im not gonna turbo it. Just desnork, borla headers, highflow cat, with a custom exhaust going to a STi or WRX muffler. Then cams, then engine managment and hopfully 180-200hp. Is that too optimistic?

[Wiscon_Mark]

It depends. Are you looking for 180-200 horsepower at the wheels, or 180-200 at the crank? The 135 HP figure (stock) is at the crank, not the wheels. The whp is more like 100.

[Perdue]

You can swap in a EJ25 if you'd like for an extra 30hp.

A Phase 1 EJ25 Shortblock with EJ22 heads yeilds a higher compression ratio (11.5:1 I'm thinking, but I'm half lit). There's all kinds of different combinations you can go with.

If you but a Borla header and high flow cat section, you're cheating yourself though. OBX EL headers can be had on Ebay for around $300, and a high flow cat can be added to replace the included resonator for around $80 plus welding fees. That's a lot cheaper than the Borla and High Flow Section, not to mention it will actually net you some power.

I'm highly against Borla headers, especially the Single Port Headers. In the past, there were problems with both the single port and dual port borla headers cracking and such. Sure, they have a lifetime warrenty, but who wants to spend $300 on a header, only to have to take it off and ship it back after having it for a few days of gaining 3hp?? I had mine rewelded in multiple places before it started leaking around the flanges closest to the heads...at which point I got mad, took the POS off, and cut it up with our rescue tools (jaws of life) at the fire station. As far as I know, the single port headers are still in the first generation and have had no improvements (can you blame Borla? the damand isn't there), when the dual port header is a 3rd generation now, with fewer problems.

So that ends my buzzed rant. I hope I've informed you of something with few typos. Now for more beer.

[Wiscon_Mark]

To add and amend what Perdue said:

Borla sounds nice, but really doesn't help performance. The OBX headers are the same construction and design as the cobb headers (which are no longer sold) and are only 300 bucks.

To correct John, the Borla is actually in its 4th revision, but yes, the problems have been solved for those with dual port exhaust manifolds only. If you have an EJ25, it's dual port. If you have an EJ22, I don't know what you have exactly (perdue has single, I have dual, both EJ22s) but it's easy enough to find out, just pop your head underneath and look, it's obvious if it's dual port (it'll be quite oval shaped instead of circular where the header meets the block). I might venture a guess at what time the EJ22 became dual port, and that may be the revision in '97 to the EJ22 having to do with the valves and getting rid of the hydraulic lash adjusters.

[rougeben83]

Hmm... 200bhp on a 2.2? That may be reaching a little, but the 180bhp is more realistic.

The PPx unit is very good on MAF cars (not so much on MAP cars according to RS25 people...booo), and for the $300 you spend to get one used, and another $50 for Rallitek to send you a stage 3 map, you'll definitely reach your power goals.

As for aftermarket heads...hmm. I'm more about bang for your buck mods than throwing cash at the car until I see the power goals I want. The "aftermarket heads" are just modified stock heads with pnp, heavier springs, etc. You can get a local shop to flow test and do the same thing to your heads and will still undercut Cobb's (inflated IMO) prices.

For headers...Borla's are $$ for what they do IMO. Get Borla knockoffs, they're actually made of thicker piping and cost about $100 cheaper, but still more optimized for sound vs. power gains IMO.

The OBX units are good for HP gains - you'll need a CEL fix though as the resonator section deletes your cats.

[Wiscon_Mark]

you'll need a CEL fix though as the resonator section deletes your cats.

Unless you actually get a hi-flow cat, which I would strongly suggest. Also-ceramic coating and wrapping the headers would make a difference for the exhaust, it makes heat go out the right way (out of the muffler) instead of disbursing. When the exhaust gasses cool, they slow down, causing backpressure and cutting down on torque/HP. That's the problem with exhausts that are too big, the exhaust goes rushing into an area and then slows down, because it doesn't need to move as quick into a large volume, and also cools down.

You could get cometic ultrathin headgaskets to up the CR, that can help performance.

Cams are good. Deltacams are an increase, but TWEs cams do a lot more for your car performance wise..

[Plays_with_Toys]

Here's the site for delta cams:
http://www.deltacam.com/camshaftgrinding.php

And a thread on nasioc:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=1057394 (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1057394)

[subieyacht]

i was working on an auto outback with PPx and delta cams, and that thing ran like a peice. but if your ready to throw a bunch of money and time at your car, go for it. from what i can tell twe is the only way to go IMO

[Huffer]

Waitasec. TWE and Delta are just REGRINDING the cams anyway?

So as long as the specs for duration, lift and degree are all the same, it should not matter which is used - they're REGRINDS.

[Wiscon_Mark]

No, TWE sells cams. AFAIK, they don't regrind them.

[rougeben83]

Waitasec. TWE and Delta are just REGRINDING the cams anyway?

So as long as the specs for duration, lift and degree are all the same, it should not matter which is used - they're REGRINDS.

Delta won't give away their specs for their "street" and "spicy" cams I think. And most of the cost ofthe cams is the labor to install it in the car, not the cams. If you have the machinery (and I mean like...the proper machinery, not a die grinder and a ruler :lol: ) you can do the same to your cams I guess, but you'll need the specs they use.

Mark, Hi-flow cats will still require a CEL fix of some sort sometimes. It just depends on how much of a tightass your ECU is :grin: . Header wrap does work (my headers have them right now), but I think in hindsight I wouldn't do it to a set of borlas....one of the pipes goes across the front of the enginebay, very close to the oil filter; one must be VERY careful not to get any oil on there during an oil change. On an OBX or other EL headers, wrap is good.

TWE is great stuff, but their prices are out of reach for a normal enthusiast IMO. I would stick with the 2nd set of cams + Delta route if I was going to be doing cams.

I wouldn't have TWE headers sitting in my apartment right now if I hadn't gotten an insanely good deal on them used.

[Wiscon_Mark]

Oh, I know hi-flow cats require a spacer for the second o2 sensor, but I'd really rather people didn't go catless on streetcars. Plus I think you'd have many more issues not running a cat at all vs. running a hi-flow w/ a spacer. you might need like 5 spacers for the o2 sensor on a track pipe :lol: (I keeeed, but the car gets bitchy without a cat).

[blackgtbeauty]

when i talked to one of the engineers at twe he said he like to not just put the cams in, but also polish things up and it squeaks out more power and runs smoother. it's been a while since i chatted with him but i'm 90% that's what he meant.

he also said he like to do valves and all sorts of stuff, but major $$$.

[rougeben83]

when i talked to one of the engineers at twe he said he like to not just put the cams in, but also polish things up and it squeaks out more power and runs smoother. it's been a while since i chatted with him but i'm 90% that's what he meant.

he also said he like to do valves and all sorts of stuff, but major $$$.

Well if you think about it, it makes sense because what cams do is basically shifts where on the powerband you will be making power. It does this by altering when the exhaust and intake valves open up relative to each other. To get more flow, you have to work on the valves and the airway paths in the head, which will optimize the new timing provided by the cams to make even more power.

[BuruKid]

The borla header has got to be good for more than 3hp. Im gonna go borla just because the car will never "feel" fast because im used to my old 275hp Volvo 850 that I hit a deer and totaled. I just want decent fuel mileage. MEAN boxer growl. and AWD. Plus a little power couldnt hurt.

[Huffer]

No, TWE sells cams. AFAIK, they don't regrind them.

Nope. They take cams as cores. I asked them.
hence why their website says "cores in stock now". That means they can produce a cam, and they'll refund you a core charge when you send them a decent condition original.

[Huffer]

Delta won't give away their specs for their "street" and "spicy" cams I think. And most of the cost ofthe cams is the labor to install it in the car, not the cams. If you have the machinery (and I mean like...the proper machinery, not a die grinder and a ruler :lol: ) you can do the same to your cams I guess, but you'll need the specs they use.

TWE is great stuff, but their prices are out of reach for a normal enthusiast IMO. I would stick with the 2nd set of cams + Delta route if I was going to be doing cams.

Why couldn't you give Delta the TWE spec for cam regrinds? TWE have their specs posted on their website - it's no secret!

Shoot, you could just find any cam-grind shop, hand them the stock cams and the new specs, and tell them to go at it. :wink:

[rougeben83]

Delta won't give away their specs for their "street" and "spicy" cams I think. And most of the cost ofthe cams is the labor to install it in the car, not the cams. If you have the machinery (and I mean like...the proper machinery, not a die grinder and a ruler :lol: ) you can do the same to your cams I guess, but you'll need the specs they use.

TWE is great stuff, but their prices are out of reach for a normal enthusiast IMO. I would stick with the 2nd set of cams + Delta route if I was going to be doing cams.

Why couldn't you give Delta the TWE spec for cam regrinds? TWE have their specs posted on their website - it's no secret!

Shoot, you could just find any cam-grind shop, hand them the stock cams and the new specs, and tell them to go at it. :wink:

...ok :grin: I mean Delta already has the specs for street and spicy cams already, they don't need TWE's, though they could probably grind TWE's profile if you request it.. You can forgo the shipping and give TWE's specs to a local machine shop, why not?

All I'm saying is that it costs $130 for cams, but the labor to install it is $500-600. Unless you install it yourself then the majority of the cost is unavoidable.

[BuruKid]

I cant find a site for TWE. Do they have one?

[rougeben83]

http://www.techworkseng.com/Products/Su ... xhaust.htm (http://www.techworkseng.com/Products/Subaru_Performance_Exhaust.htm)

$$$,but very good quality stuff that's been proven.