ACK! Subaru broke down

[ryu_haneda]

Sucky...

Drove up to and back from Niagra Falls last week with over 1000 miles on the trip meter and no problems. The car was absolutely fantastic - I especially liked pulling away from tollbooths.

Yesterday, on the way back from visiting my parents in New Jersey, I was cutting along on some back roads when I heard a kind of TWANG-like sound from the front of the car. Later on last night, when I went out for a drive in the car, I heard the motor much louder than before, like there's a lot of air being fed in to the engine, or like something is contributing to its sounding very loud (almost raspy, but more like a busted fan than even a diesel-esque noise).

I recently had an oil leak problem fixed and there was a timing belt put on to replace the old one (since they were going to be right next to it anyway in the process).

Today, my wife is driving the car around town and the car stalls on her. I don't have much more details, but the car has been towed to my local garage for analysis. The sucky thing is that we're a two-car bunch, and she now doesn't have a loaner from the garage (they're all out).

I'm thinking there might have been a problem with the timing belt, or maybe the MAF sensor took in waaaaaay too much air somewhere, but that's only my uneducated guesses. Any ideas?

-ryu_haneda
-busted Subaru in shop

[Wiscon_Mark]

hmm, much louder, twang noise...stalling...

Did you make sure the intake tubing is on there properly?

[ryu_haneda]

Actually haven't touched any filter since two Saturdays ago, when my buddy and I took a look at my air filter (we didn't get the cover off completely, but we did put the clamps back on when we were done).

There really weren't any other intake parts I messed with at all. There's a fakey-doo intake piece that comes up the passenger side just behind or aside of the side marker light assembly, but it doesn't feed into anything (just funnels air in, I don't think that had anything to do with it).

[Wiscon_Mark]

No, I was thinking the tubing might've been coming off at the Throttle body. It's definitely a long shot, but it fits.

[ryu_haneda]

Thanks for the tip. I called my local repair shop to have them take a look at that particular spot. The only other thing that I could possibly think of could be a problem with the timing belt, but the throttle body sounds like it makes more sense to me now (MUCH louder engine, raspiness, sounds like lots more air coming through, etc.).

Hoping for the best... God bless them. I hope the thing gets looked at today, they're short-staffed.

-ryu_haneda
-Subaru busted, in the shop

[Wiscon_Mark]

do you have a GT?

If it's the timing belt, your engine would be toast, and wouldn't run period

If course, if you have the 2.2L, it wouldn't run either.

[ryu_haneda]

Hmmm...

My wife did say that after the car stalled, she tried to turn the engine once and nothing happened.

On the other hand, if it IS the timing belt that broke, then I should hopefully be able to get a free repair in (seeing as how the timing belt replacement was only done about 3 weeks or so ago).

I'll check in again with the garage later this afternoon at about 4:30 to see what's up. Hoping for the best!

-ryu_haneda
-Subaru busted, in the shop

[ryu_haneda]

Ok, checked in with the garage again... no one got a chance to look at the car today (understandable seeing as how they're a couple of folks short). They told me they were going to try to take a look at it tomorrow.

Sucky thing is that although I'm covered with just one car for today and for tomorrow, Thursday I'm really going to need to go back to two cars.

They're usually good with following through, even though it takes a little longer than desired sometimes. I will have to wait until tomorrow to see if they find out what's going on, hopefully the diagnosis won't take much longer.

[ryu_haneda]

Yes! Called in to my garage and the overworked staff is finally taking a look at the ride right now. I told them that if anything is wrong with the car to fix it (this is so that they don't have to wait for my permission to get working on stuff).

Hopefully they will be able to at least begin working on things tonight.

Here goes!

-ryu_haneda
-Subaru busted, in the shop
-finally being looked at, hoping it gets fixed soon :D

[warrior]

yikes.. hopefully they don't go fix happy and fix everything little thing leaving you with a nice fat bill!

[Perdue]

I told them that if anything is wrong with the car to fix it (this is so that they don't have to wait for my permission to get working on stuff).
:smt103 I hope you don't regret that.

[ryu_haneda]

Ok boys and girls, here's the scoop:

So far, the problem appears to be a busted timing belt pretensioner. The bolts actually broke off the part and then the rest is history. Fortunately enough the car never started up again after the engine stalled, otherwise some SERIOUS damage could have resulted. NEway, I'm waiting until tomorrow to find out what else could be going on and how much it's all going to be.

If the price for the repairs is seriously going to be more than $1k to fix, and they call me to confirm the operation, I might just contact the head mechanic next week and talk frank about possibly buying a WRX engine and doing a swap. Is it going to happen? Most likely no, unless the price is right.

My gosh - a 2.0 WRX turbo engine in a BD 2.5GT car? This could be seriously sick.

-ryu_haneda
-Subaru busted, in the shop
-finally being looked at
-WHAT'S THIS? I'M THINKING ABOUT DOING A SWAP?!?!

[ryu_haneda]

:smt103 I hope you don't regret that.

I only have two cars at home, and my wife drives the other one. It's pretty much a must-do kind of thing.

Lord willing, once I get a house with a driveway, the majority of the nickel and dime repairs will go away. Unfortunately I'm in a spot where the stuff has to get fixed to get the car running. (If there's other stuff that gets replaced that was just worn and torn, then I will be paying more - possibly a LOT - but then at least I'll know where I'm coming from and it'll motivate me that much more to learn how to care for the car myself.)

The thing that I'm probably going to push for is to find out up front whether or not the garage that fixed it accidentally damaged the timing belt pretensioner when the timing belt was replaced.

[Perdue]

Most of the time swaps can run upwards of well over 5k. The man hours in wiring alone...jebus.

The best of luck to you though. Keep us updated.

[ryu_haneda]

Well, all is quiet on the homefront for now. Tomorrow they're supposed to pull the engine apart some more and inspect for other damage (associated pieces of the drivetrain that could've gotten messed up with a busted pretensioner).

I really hope they can come up with a solution quickly, because the temporary car my wife has will not be available on Friday and our other car is due for an oil change that day as well.

Hopefully things will turn out ok, God willing. I'll find out for sure tomorrow (or keep checking with the garage until I know when stuff will go down).

Later guys! Have a great night.

-ryu_haneda
-Subaru busted, in the shop
-don't think I'll do an engine swap - too expensive :|

[ryu_haneda]

I called in this afternoon to see how the car repair was going. There were a few other cars being taken care of today, so they were going to take a look at the car after midday.

Called around noon and I heard that their power supply went out. :shock: :lol:

I don't think I'm going to get the car fixed before next week. In retrospect, this is actually funny - I mean, everybody has their bad weeks. At least we have our other car to fall back on.

Dunno if they'll be able to do anything with the car today if they have other catching up to do, hopefully if the other folks come back next week there will be more people on staff to take care of the cars and my repair.

God bless you all... this issue is officially in His hands at this point. There's nothing more I can really do, so I'm at ease about it.

Later!

-ryu_haneda
-Subaru busted, in the shop
-waiting for the fixes

[warrior]

car repairs suck :( I know how you feel man.. it just shows how much we rely on vehicles!!

[ryu_haneda]

It's ok. Like I said, it's funny at this point. I just thank God that the car is in the shop and that my wife didn't get hurt when the car stalled (i.e. stalled on a highway).

I do hope they fix it before the end of next week, of course, but again, this is something I'm cool on at this point.

(I was just lurking on NASIOC.Com and looked up a pickup bed-liner paint job on an STi... I want to spray bedliner onto the lips and skirts of my GT since I like the way the black looks on the car, and I want to have a hassle-free time keeping the lips nice. Thoughts?)

-ryu_haneda
-Subaru busted, in the shop
-might post later, going home from work now

[ryu_haneda]

Ok, called on my way home from work, the Subaru has not been looked at today. (Too many other cars that were scheduled and not enough staff there.)

They are going to try again tomorrow. Hopefully no more surprises and they will be able to take a look and poke around for additional problems if there are any.

We were supposed to get the oil changed on our other car tomorrow - going to have to cancel that because we will only have one car. Going to get the oil changed at some other place on Saturday.

Just going to have to wait and be patient for any issues tomorrow or next week, and God will help me with stuff. I know He will.

Later!

-ryu_haneda
-Subaru busted, in the shop
-waiting to hear more about diagnosis

[ryu_haneda]

Thanks be to God for my in-laws.

They stopped by tonight to have a quick chat with us and catch up. We told them about our car. Dad-in-law asked me a very important question:

are the repairs covered by your warranty?

:shock: :grin: I KNEW THERE WAS A REASON GOD LET THIS DRAG FOR SO LONG!!!

I got a complimentary warranty with the purchase of my used car. The warranty doesn't have much - but it is a 3 month / 3,000 mile powertrain warranty. I'm right around the 2400 to 2600 mile mark on my warranty, and the whole timing belt / engine repair issue is something that could be covered, at least in part, by my automobile warranty (it's a vehicle service contract through a company called Wheelz, administered by American Auto Guardian).

This means the possibility exists that I could have a significant portion of the repairs covered, and I could possibly be holding on to a lot more money after the repair.

I hope God lets this happen. I know I don't want to be frying money away if I don't have to. I'm calling the repair shop tomorrow and letting them know about this.

The head mechanic at the shop has told me he has worked with auto warranty companies in the past. I hope this works out for the good.

I'm optimistic now. God be with me as I resolve this thing!

-ryu_haneda
-Subaru busted, in the shop
-possibly paying less for the repairs than I thought
-no, I'm not swapping my engine out :grin:

[ryu_haneda]

Ok, this is going to be the last update for a little while...

I called my extended warranty company, Wheelz (they are administered by American Auto Guardian, Inc.). I only have at most 2600 of 3,000 miles allowed by my 3 month / 3,000 mile warranty per the used car dealer I got the car from. (I could have purchased a longer term, but I wasn't interested. Fortunately enough, it turned out to be just convenient enough for me.)

Long story short, I called them, then I called my shop, and my shop called them to get more information about the claims process. An inspector will most likely be at the shop on Monday or Tuesday to get a look at the vehicle.

I'm at ease now, because Monday morning, I should be able to go to the garage and take out a free loaner so that the both of us will have transportation while this is going down.

It's still possible (even though the timing belt pretensioner failed) that they might turn around and say that they won't cover the repair. I would figure this would be a powertrain breakdown issue, but I don't know. At the very least, with a free loaner and just a little wait until the car gets inspected, I'm no longer inconvenienced. I just have to be patient.

If I have to repair the car, it's unfortunately going to have to go on a credit card (I have no other choice - I have no other money available).

So at least for now, this topic is parked. More to come...

[ryu_haneda]

It's official, kiddos... the engine is busted.

The timing belt pretensioner broke and caused a waterfall damage effect aka engine is messed up (bent valves among other possible problems). Garage is trying to find out about a new engine right now.

Extended warranty was from Wheelz (Aka American Auto Guardian)... had an inspector show up today and they denied the claim (said that the bolts that fell out of timing belt pretensioner caused the ultimate damage, not the part itself).

I am going to call the warranty company to discuss the details and also talk further with the garage that did the repair work (when they replace timing belts, is it a good idea to replace or at least fix the timing belt pre-tensioner as well?). So the order of calls I will basically make is

1. Warranty company (to find out more why they denied claim)
2. Garage (to start getting price quotes on engines and ultimately speak with head mechanic about all this)
3. Dealer (as a third option - I won't actually speak to the dealer that sold me the car until I get in touch with a lawyer to discuss lemon law if necessary... dunno if this option is even a possibility at all but if this is where God wants me to go then... no other choice)

I want to keep my car, but everything's up in the air right now... it'd be cool if I could somehow source and drive a 2.0 WRX engine as a result of all this, but we're gonna have to see how everything is resolved. This is God's will, and I know He has a purpose for it. Now I'm going to follow Him and find out what it is.

Later!

-ryu_haneda
-Subaru busted, in the shop
-ENGINE KAPUT!!! Time to start thinking about a possible wrx swap

p.s. how much does getting the same exact EJ25 for my legacy and installing it cost at a garage?

[SHOfast]

I am not sure what year EJ25 you have but I beleive they are all the same.

It does not sound like you have had this car very long so I firmly beleive somebody else will pick up this tab in the end, it just may take some convincing, maybe from a legal team.

If the timing belt was replaced before you purchased the car that may be the seller.

If you had the belt replaced at a repair facility than it may be them. Did you supply the parts for the repair?

On the EJ25 you need to remove the timing belt tensioner to change the timing belt. The tensioner needs to be compressed on a press in a special manner, otherwise it will be damaged. The timing belt tensioner is held on to the engine with 2 bolts, removed as said above to do the timing belt. From your description it sounds to me that these bolts fell out causing the damage. This in my book is a faulty repair. Bolts do not generally wear out quickly, they do need to be tightened to a specified torque. Somebody left the bolts loose or damaged the threads in the aluminum block reinstalling it. Unless the repair shop can show me that these bolts "failed" than I would press them about doing a poor repair that resulted with this damage. If your uncle did the repair for you on the side than you are out of luck.

Hope you are able to get this back on the road soon. A used EJ25 is a pretty expensive motor, most that I have seen have been in the $1000 + range. The install on the otherhand is one of the easiest.

[Plays_with_Toys]

man that sucks! Hopefully all will fall into place soon enough though. I imagine an engine installed would run in the $1400 range, 1000 or so for the engine, and 400 in labor, so long as the motor they are installing is a gem, and they don't need to do any work on it. But a swap would cost much more.

[Wiscon_Mark]

A shortblock swap would do it, so what PWT said sounds about right. The warranty should cover that, no problem.

[ryu_haneda]

Ok, here's an update:

I'm going to be calling back the repair shop at quarter of 5 eastern time if no one gets back to me about the repair.

* The timing belt was replaced by the shop. This was done at the same time as a oil leak fix, so that we could drive the car to and from Niagra Falls. (It's worth noting that the failure, by the grace of God, didn't actually occur until we were back in our own state, after two weeks of great driving, within 25 miles of my house. The car didn't stall until the following day.)

* The timing belt pre-tensioner failed when I heard a TWANG (that's when I think it happened) - one of the two bolts holding it in place broke in two, with one piece staying on the mating and the other piece flying off (I think somewhere into the timing belt assembly - this is why the timing belt got frayed). This is also why there is so much damage - I just thought the engine made a weird noise, but for the 24 hours (roughly) that we were driving the car from the failure until it stalled, I think the "excess air" noise was probably due in part to the belt. MY WIFE WAS RIGHT! She said the noise came from the timing belt compartment. It was the belt, and it was frayed.

* The vehicle service contract company, Wheelz (administered by American Auto Guardian) had the inspector come and look at the car today. They denied the warranty flat out, because they believe the bolt which broke off caused the damage. They classify the bolt as a non-covered part.

* I've already gotten this knowledge from a rep at the warranty company. I'm thinking about filing a complaint with them with the BBB and the Board of Consumer Affairs, but at the same time, their max payout is only $1,000. (I'm not complaining by the way, I got the warranty for free.) I need to find out from my garage what happened when they replaced the timing belt, and why they did not even recommend replacing the timing belt pretensioner, or why the bolts broke off.

My bottom line is: I don't need to yell at people. The Lord gives me clear guidelines for how to be a man. However, I am looking for the truth. (I'm going to keep asking questions until I find out.)

[Wiscon_Mark]

If the tensioner failed, that was an install problem when they did the timing belt and they shoudl cover it anyways, all warranty aside.

[ryu_haneda]

Quite frankly, if all that has to be done so far is to replace the engine, I'm still impressed. This car, with stock engine internals, is an absolutely rewarding driving vehicle. The seats are comfortable, the only complaint I have in this series car is the lack of a tilt in the steering wheel, and how the cupholder comes out in front of radio and a/c controls.

I want to keep this car for a while. It's in God's hands now... gotta make my calls.

(Edit add)

By the way, how much does a WRX-into-a-Legacy swap actually cost? (No exacts, but ballpark?)

-ryu_haneda

[Huffer]

Bummer...
This is also a classic example of why used car warranties are such a joke.

[Huffer]

By the way, how much does a WRX-into-a-Legacy swap actually cost? (No exacts, but ballpark?)

-ryu_haneda

I would say minimum $5k for a clean job by professionals.
Then factor in your premium fuel costs and higher insurance?

[ryu_haneda]

Huffer,

Thanks for the information. I would say it's not going to be a temptation for me anymore to consider a WRX swap unless I can afford it (I can't right now).

I would be very happy at this point with a used (aka new-to-me) EJ25 dropped back in to the bay. Head mechanic is still out with his racing team this week, but I'm going to decide between tonight and the next few days what I'm going to do.

It's probably going to involve me finding out more about the repair that went down.

[Wiscon_Mark]

buy a brand new shortblock from the dealership-it's really not that expensive. I still think the shop that did the timing belt should stand behind their work! You shouldn't feel like you have to bend over and take if they unintentionally sabotaged your car.

[Plays_with_Toys]

I can not even fathom why that bolt would snap, the other bolt didn't get tightened down, and only one bolt was holding the tensioner. Even still, that seems really odd. The fact the bolt snapped could also be from over tightening it, which would be the fault of the garage who did the work originally. That makes it tricky to know whether the warrantee would cover it, simply because another shop performed work on the vehicle (despite the fact the bolt isn't "covered". That's just, rediculous in my thoughts. They could blame any problem of the car on a loose bolt if thats the case.

If you look at the chain too, the tensioner caused the bolt to fail, then the bolt caused the belt to fail. The bolt didn't cause the bolt to fail. They're not looking to the original source of the problem.

Sounds like you're taking some good actions.

EDIT: I'm also surprised yours doesn't have a tilt wheel? Mine does and its an L?

[Wiscon_Mark]

Yeah, I think he just hasn't discovered it yet, every Legacy has it.

[ryu_haneda]

Say now... I thought there wasn't a tilt function. I know there's a lever on the left hand side of the steering column that controls how high or low the steering wheel is. Is there some other switch on the column itself to control tilt?

-ryu_haneda

[Wiscon_Mark]

nah, but that controls the tilt somewhat. Honestly, I don't think it's necessary to have the wheel oriented to make it like a school bus...

[ryu_haneda]

Ok, I thought I missed some feature. It's honestly not that bad, I just tend to have the chair closer to the floor so that my big legs fit better underneath the steering wheel.

Other than that, it's made every single road I've driven that much nicer.

I'm going to get some advice from a few corners about this car issue tonight. I want to know if there's going to be a way I can challenge the ruling of the warranty company, and then if there's no possible way that will happen (and once I file my complaint with the BBB), I will then focus on the garage.

I'm not giving up - there's a LOT to do and this is hard to deal with, but I'm not giving up.

God bless you folks, and thanks for following this and offering your suggestions. I'm going to have to see where the chips fall tonight.

Later!
-ryu_haneda
-Subaru busted, in the shop
-ENGINE KAPUT! Need a new one

[Huffer]

buy a brand new shortblock from the dealership-it's really not that expensive. I still think the shop that did the timing belt should stand behind their work! You shouldn't feel like you have to bend over and take if they unintentionally sabotaged your car.

If the valves are bent then the heads will need replacing too...

Best bet - buy a used longblock from a rear-ended salvage and install it.

this is why warranties are such a joke - the only warranty worth having is a CASH emergency fund.

[SHOfast]

Going with an unknown used motor is not a wise choice if you need this to be a primary runner. I would go the rebuilt route for the piece of mind that there will not be any problems already there and the motor should last a long time. It is difficult to rebuild a motor for the cost of a rebuilt one when you are not doing the labor yourself. Unless you get a used motor from a low miles car that comes with atleast a 30 day warranty (note that those do not cover labor for the removal and install of the replacement) it is just not worth the risk of getting another persons problems.

[ryu_haneda]

That's a good point. It was my repair facility that actually recommended getting a used engine as opposed to rebuilding it. I am assuming that going the rebuilt route would cost significantly more in labor because of all that's involved.

I heard a few price quotes with regards to engine prices so far for EJ25s, with prices starting at 1700 for a high mileage engine. I'm going to have to find out more as the day goes on.

[Wiscon_Mark]

See how much a new shortblock is and get quotes on a used set of heads, and I bet you'll get much lower than 1700.

[Huffer]

Ebay has EJ25s for $1600 shipped.

[ryu_haneda]

I'm grateful I have a free loaner from my local garage for the duration, as this issue could have easily turned into one ENORMOUSLY HUGE rental car bill.

(EDIT: I am also thinking differently now about used vehicle extended warranties/service plans now... I don't know I'm going to consider them much any more.)

I told them to give me a call once they have their options lined up and the engines are available to choose from. (They currently have some of their staff working and probably looking over the car now.)

I seriously hope I am able to get out of this situation without dropping several dozen c-notes. I can't imagine having to justify another couple grand of work on a car. I've been patient with them lately because I've been trying to get set up for the proper opportunity to talk to everyone about the repair work recently done on the car.

[ryu_haneda]

Ok, lemme ask a serious question.

If I know that EJ25 engines in my model year are prone to head gasket failure, and if I know I have a chance to put practically ANY engine type in my car because there my engine is shot, what should I do?

I would IDEALLY like to get an engine swapped in that does not have head gasket problems (I'll keep quiet, however, if my garage actually does compensate me, parts and labor, for the same engine type).

Thoughts?

[Huffer]

The head gasket failure on the EJ25 is due primarily to the head gaskets used. Subaru revised the head gasket itself after many owners experienced failed engines. EJ22s don't suffer the same problem for some reason (maybe they used different HG materials).

If your garage uses the newest head gaskets, or a good aftermarket one like Cometic Gasket, the engine will be rock solid for years.

[ryu_haneda]

When did the "new" gaskets start being used on Subaru engines? I could either have them order newer head gaskets for a similar EJ25 engine and install them on, or simply get a newer year engine and have them put it in (maybe as recent as a phase-2 with newer OEM gaskets like the ones in '99 and up legacies).

[Wiscon_Mark]

Well, the only gaskets that should be available now should be the revised ones. They started with the first revision in 1999 (2000 on the Legacy, '99 on the Impreza RS) with the coming of the phaseII EJ25. But the heavy duty ones that were the actual fix (apparently) came in 2004.

[ryu_haneda]

Hmmm, sounds like those are the ones I'll want to get. Any word on whether they will simply fit on old phase-1 or phase-2 engines?

[Wiscon_Mark]

Yes, the revised gaskets are for all EJ25s.

[ryu_haneda]

The repair shop head mechanic was informed about the engine today (he had been out of the office running gargage-work out of state)... they are thinking that valve repair may actually be a possibility, since they do have the entire engine dissassembled. If repair on this engine is an actual possibility, then this is something that may actually be cheaper than buying a replacement.

(They did say they found an engine for about $1600 - think it's from a rear-ended kind of shop, but I think the problem is that the vendor only warrants it for 30 days.)

I also told the garage to look into sourcing 2004 model year or later Legacy engine head gaskets. I really want this thing to be as close to tank-like as possible.

My overall concern is going to be engine reliability. Eventually, I hope to know enough about car repair to take care of all preventative maintenance and maybe even work involving taking the motor off its mounts. In the meantime, my noob question is: is a rebuilt engine going to offer more reliability than another used engine altogether? What are the tradeoffs of going one way or another?

Thanks for all your support out there. The repair shop is interested in wrapping this up soon (as am I) because I have their only functioning loaner car, and they've had to push all their loaner car work (some repairs) back a week because I have it.

Later!

-rh

p.s. once I get it back, I'm probably going to get synthetic oil only put on this car from now on. Is there any significant benefit to using synthetic as opposed to conventional motor oils?

[Wiscon_Mark]

I really can't imagine that redoing the valves is going to be that cheap...

And I don't know why you're "searching for 2004+ headgaskets." Those should be the only kind Subaru makes anymore, considering that it's a fix that they made.

[Huffer]

Rebuilt engine vs. factory assembled.

The pros and cons should be obvious - a mechanical shop can usually assemble an engine just fine - but they don't have the benefits of a factory line with all the ISO certifications. A 2nd-hand factory assembled motor is still likely to be rock solid providing the car it was in wasn't thrown around.

Overall reliability - this is blindman shooting game. Overall, Subaru's are very reliable. But there are some that are just prone to breaking - no matter how much care you put into them. Others, will go on and on and on, even if the owner doesn't change the oil, or wash the thing.
Call it Murphy, call it dumb luck, call it the sharp end of the standard deviation bell curve.

Synthetic motor oil - you should avoid using this on a brand new engine. On a used engine with a few miles (at least 3000) you can use synthetics. Hell, you can even use a mix of synth, semi-synth and mineral oil. That's what my car has in the oil pan... because I've used full synth, semi and mineral oils. When you drain the oil, you never get 100% out. Maybe 95-99%.

[Huffer]

they are thinking that valve repair may actually be a possibility, since they do have the entire engine dissassembled.

The valves were bent, I would hate to use valves that WERE bent in my car. Who knows when they might just fall off?

Unless they're replacing the valves, which could be fine.

Seriously, unless the crank and pistons are messed up, you could just get some DOHC heads, have them mated to the shortblock with new headgaskets, new timing belt, tensioner and you should be good to go.

[ryu_haneda]

Praying to God and talking to the head mechanic makes all the difference...

The garage work to rebuild the engine would definitely *replace* bent valves and not repair them. There are some more details that I have to find out about with regards to a rebuild.

The head mechanic's opinion is to avoid the possibility of future problems down the road with this engine (since the tensioner bolt broke off and probably rattled around in the engine, knocking or breaking some other stuff that they might not be able to catch immediately) by swapping in a different engine altogether (another EJ25).

I did get a chance to talk with the head mechanic this afternoon by buzzing him on his cellphone, after I got the price quotes for a sample engine and a rebuild price quote. He told me that he stands behind the work of his crew, but at the same time, he does want to work with me to come up with a fruitful solution to this whole problem.

His concern on the phone sounded genuine, and so did his interest to resolve the problem. Why wouldn't it? I've had all my cars serviced at his garage for over 5 years now (pretty much exclusively). This is the first time in 5 years that I've had a major problem.

The HM did say he wanted to discuss details more on Tuesday, when he got back from being out-of-state and got a chance to take a serious look at the engine. I'm going to be doing some homework myself and sourcing some engines on my own time, to make some of the work easier for this gentleman when he gets back.

I am still in a loaner, but it's still a working vehicle. Hey, life is still good. Praise God!

[SHOfast]

There is nothing wrong with doing a head rebuild to fix the motor if the short block did not get damaged. Sometimes the shortblock does get damaged and that would not be a great solution.

I have never seen a shop able to un-bend valves, they replace them with new. They also need to check and repair the valve seats, guides.... basically everything up.

A new Subaru short block is about $1800.
A rebuild motor should be about $3000 with a warranty
A used motor may be around $1200 depending where you get it, how used and things like that.


Than you need to add labor, at best they would just install the motor, that is a few hours of work. Any assembly or rebuilding will be more, plus gaskets too.

You take a risk with the used motor, it may have problems already, or it may develop problems in short order after the warranty is out. Rebuilt is the safest because it comes with a warranty that may even pay for labor if something goes wrong. Getting your motor repaired makes the most money for the shop because they do all the work, I would think this will cost not too much less than a rebuilt long block from a place like Jasper Engines.

[ryu_haneda]

I've got quote requests in to at least three engine websites, two of which are local Subaru dealerships in the area. I'm looking to see what price quotes they give me for engines and short blocks.

If the head mechanic was the one that made the recommendation to go with another used engine (and not an engine rebuild, because he was concerned about the potential for ongoing or undiscovered damage down the road), I think another engine is probably going to be the way to go.

I'm going to want to find out some criticals about the engine when getting prices, like mileage, the condition of the car it came from, and I'm sure there are more issues, but I don't know much more at the moment. Does anyone else have any ideas as to what kinds of questions I can ask when shopping around for engines?

I just want to take time to thank everyone that has posted on the thread so far. Your comments have helped me come a long way towards understanding more about the EJ25 series engine, and I hope this is information that can be in my corner when I speak with the techs on Tuesday (I will most likely stop by and take a look at the engine with the HM, it is fully removed).

God bless you, and good night.

-ryu_haneda
-Subaru busted, in the shop
-waiting to speak with the HM on Tuesday

[Huffer]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SUBARU-I ... dZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SUBARU-IMPREZ-95-99-Leagcy-Engine-2500-cc-DOHC-EJ25_W0QQitemZ110043257741QQihZ001QQcategoryZ33615QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

$1399 shipped.


FREE shipping to the united states except the west coast meaning hawaii, alaska,PR, CA, WA, OR,NV, AZ. we will use Yellow carriers to ship and shipping time will take 2-5 business days depending on your location.

Our engines and transmissions carry 90 days warranty on them. This warranty is only on the engine block and head. This warranty will cover that no problems will occur if the engine is installed in the vehicle properly. In the event that a part of the engine block or head is found to be defective, this part will be replaced.

Conditions
Our warranty covers all internal engine parts. Engine block, cylinder barrels and cylinder head are also warranted to be free of cracks or distortion

Looks like a reputable seller too - 99.1%, 116 sales.

[Huffer]

I'm going to want to find out some criticals about the engine when getting prices, like mileage, the condition of the car it came from, and I'm sure there are more issues, but I don't know much more at the moment. Does anyone else have any ideas as to what kinds of questions I can ask when shopping around for engines?


One question I would ask, is how did the engine become a donor engine...

Apart from that, there's really nothing else you can do except have your HM check out the possible engines. If they're clean and can do a hot test or at least a compression test on the cylinders, then that's about all you can do.

[ryu_haneda]

Found an engine that I think just might do the trick. Hopefully it's not going to be trouble.

I found a longblock for $2700 from an engine machine shop nearby. The folks that have it say that they just finished it... it's a re-manufactured longblock for my legacy, with a 3-year unlimited mileage warranty. (A longblock is basically all that I need to replace the engine in my legacy, right? I'm still a little confused.)

If it is all that I need, the next step would be to convince my HM that this is the engine that I want. The place is in PA, so it would not be an out-of-state aquisition. What would be necessary to have the repair shop and this machine shop (which I don't think they've spoken with) speak to each other?

I don't know if this is a long shot, but hopefully this will resolve my problem.

[Huffer]

A long block basically replaces the entire engine assembly - power steering, ac compressor (usually) the whole deal.

For the engine supplier and your workshop to work together, all it takes is for them to call each other, and for you to approve the expenses.

[ryu_haneda]

Ok, story update for all who were following along previously (moderators, get out your popcorn):

* Checked in last night with the head mechanic at my shop. He took me to the back where the engine was dissassembled, and showed me some of the damage. I think I understood that the (intake valves?) touched and the car was unable to restart because of the ultimate damage done to the engine and the positioning of the bent valves.

I also found out that someone else had already worked on this engine before, in an apparently unprofessional manner (could've just been someone knowledgeable who took some shortcuts or didn't know what they were doing). A few dow rods that connect part of the engine to the heads were actually messed up (had dimples in them), and my garage had to really work to take the engine apart to see them.

The bolt which broke off the timing belt tensioner broke off cleanly, almost perfectly (it was not the typical break that would be indicative of using a broken bolt, i.e., the bolt was not dark in one spot and light in another). The HM did say that this was indicative of over-tightening a bolt.

I've worked with that garage for years, and the HM is a very trustworthy guy. He told me (based on what the mechanics told him that worked on my car) that the bolt did not break based on their maintenance of the car (so there will be no free-cost fix). However, he said that he would still do the engine swap job at reduced labor, and that he can stretch time out for me so that I can pay him as I need to.

I still feel somewhat like I've been left holding the bag, but this is a lesson to me as well. The only other option I have at this point is to potentially discuss the entire matter with a lemon law layer (I purchased the car on 8/26/06, still less than 2 months ago), and see where I can go from here. I would like to keep the car, since it generally seems to be in ok condition otherwise (and a remanufactured engine will make it sing quite nicely).

At this point, I'm going to contact my garage, and find out what their reduced labor rate is going to be before I call the machine shop and confirm my decision to purchase the engine. The only other option would be to drop the ball completely and spend time discussing this issue with a lemon law lawyer.

The story continues...

-ryu_haneda
-Subaru busted, in the shop
-dunno if I should just buy a remanned engine or consider other options

[Wiscon_Mark]

If it was overtightened, then the fault lies at the feet of the shop who did your timing belt job, and they should be held responsible for recompensing you for a new/reman. engine.

Period.

[SHOfast]

Sorry to hear what has happened.

Sadly there is a chance that a bolt can just break, no warning or misuse or signs. Over tightening would more likely strip the threads in the block than break the bolt as the block is soft alloy.

I greatly caution you to get a warranty with any motor that you get making sure it comes with a labor warranty. Even better would be to leave the engine finding to the HM where he will be the one making the complete warranty to you, labor and parts. Subaru engines have a few issues that need addressing when they are rebuilt, you do not want to find a motor that may have a leaking headgasket or a bad case of common piston slap beyond the regular rings and bearing issues.

Good luck getting back on the road.

[Huffer]

What SHOfast said. Get the workshop to rebuild the thing, they can supply their own warranty and parts, that way you have less people to deal with.

With regard to the lemon law, you might have some recourse with the seller of the car - but I doubt it would be worth the expense.

[ryu_haneda]

The official word is that there is no lemon law for 1998 model year cars (NJ lemon law statute is for MY2000 and up, info courtesy of the NJ Division of Consumer Affairs). It's ok, really, because I don't want to take ppl to court at this point anyway.

Assuming the bolt-tightening operation was done to spec at my shop (and I still have very little reason to doubt this bunch, since I've used their services for years), it might just be possible that the bolt actually *failed*, or just went south, all by itself. I don't know who jumped into the engine before I bought the car (I do know there are some signs of damage to the dow pins/rods and parts of the heads of the engine), but it could be quite possible that they over-tightened the bolt just enough (previous owners, not my shop) so that the bolt was slowly losing strength at that point where it broke off.

Per my shop, overtightening the bolt to a significant degree would have probably produced problems in the first 100 to 200 miles of driving (or as few as the first 2 miles).

The shop is going to give me reduced labor, I am calling my HM to confirm the actual pph (price per hour of labor) today. The remanned engine could be delivered as early as tomorrow afternoon, and I theoretically could be back on the road in my scooby as early as maybe this coming Thursday (that's just my guess).

Later!

EDIT: The HM told me he really didn't want to rebuild the engine itself due to past experience: same problem might present itself in a couple thousand more miles or result in the bottom end failing.

The remanned engine itself comes with a 3-year unlimited mileage warranty for defects in workmanship. Once my shop gets it, they'll be working on the car. (I figure that further questioning of the busted engine will not really produce significant results, but if anything goes wrong with the remanufactured engine install that they do, this will be something I expect them to cover. The HM basically told me as much - he will fix a problem if they break something.)

[Jonathan]

JPX (?) had an entire rebuilt EJ22 engine shipped to him from Colorado for about $3,000, maybe with $1000 refundable on the returned used Core motor...

Let me search for the reputable Subaru engine rebuilding company...

$2000 including gasket set and delivery charge. Supplier is http://www.ccrengines.com/.

[ryu_haneda]

I'm going to be ordering a remanufactured EJ25 motor on Monday for the car. The price is going to be 2700 for the longblock itself. I should ask them if they will actually take the broken components Monday morning (although I doubt they will give me any kind of compensation for the broken engine, it certainly won't hurt to ask).

[Wiscon_Mark]

Sure, there's core charges, etc.

You could also part out things that are still good, like the heads.

[ryu_haneda]

The engine arrived yesterday at my garage... HM paid for it with a shop check. When I called yesterday afternoon, they were already working on swapping parts over to the remanufactured engine. Looking forward to getting the car back this week... the head mechanic says he's optimistic the car will be ready by Friday (I think he actually said by Thursday, but I'll wait and see).

Here goes...

-ryu_haneda
-Subaru busted, in the shop
-counting down til fix day

[badbasser98]

Did you end up ordering it from CCR Engines?

[ryu_haneda]

No, it was a local place, The Engine Shop in Upper Darby (http://www.theengineshopinc.com). I wanted to get something put back in the car quickly. I don't think I'll regret it either - they have a 3 year unlimited mileage warranty on the engine itself.

If I knew I would have been waiting as long as I did for repairs, I might have been tempted to get the engine from them.

Anyways, hopefully they will have made progress and wrapped up by Thursday. Dunno...

-ryu_haneda

[ryu_haneda]

YESSSS!!!

Called my repair shop today and the car RUNS. The engine transplant was apparently a success. I am praying to God that the engine behaves... the HM and crew put in some new miles and will basically be observing between today and tonight to inspect for any abnormalities.

The HM thinks it should be ready by noon. If that's the case, my wife should be able to swing by and pick it up.

I am thankful that this is finally beginning to wrap up. It'll be great to have a Subaru for the drive to New Jersey this weekend.

-ryu_haneda
-Subaru EJ25 longblock swap complete, testing phase has begun
-looking forward to pickup tomorrow

[ryu_haneda]

Well, one EJ25 longblock, three weeks of waiting, and $4100 dollars later, I'm done.

The scooby is back on the road, and doing all right. I'm going to be keeping a close eye on it and doing my part to keep it clean and running nice.

One very good thing that came out of all this: the old engine was a phase 1 EJ25 with old head gaskets. The remanufactured engine swapped in is a phase 2 EJ25 with new head gaskets.

Soooooo... let's reframe this experience, shall we?

1 remanufactured EJ25 longblock: $2700
3 1/2 weeks work by my garage (old engine dissassembly, "new" engine installation and swapping): $1400

...1 set of updated head gaskets (and no more headgasket concerns): priceless

:) Later all!

-ryu_haneda
-Subaru fixed, no longer in the shop
-This thread can be closed

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l263/ryu_haneda/greentattoosmall.jpg

[Huffer]

Glad you have the car back up and running.

Care to supply any vendor links in case others need remanufactured engines?

[ryu_haneda]

Absolutely!

So far so good, this place gets a nod from me:

The Engine Shop - Upper Darby, Pennsylvania

http://www.theengineshopinc.com

Karen is one of the folks I spoke with. They seem like a well-enough bunch - answered many of my questions about the engine, and the remanned engine came with a 3-year unlimited mileage warranty. They also did say the remanned engine came with the newest headgaskets (kiss that problem goodbye). They are certified.

Let them know Ramon recommended you.

-ryu_haneda
-Subaru EJ25 longblock swap complete
-being broken in already :grin: [/url]