Sways or Springs n struts

[kkushner4474]

Hi,
I have a 99 legacy 5MT 2.5L BD
I was wondering which selection would be better for overall handling. This is also the only suspension work ill be able to do for a long time. These are the lowest prices I have found and if you know of any better deals please let me know. Any input would be greatly appreciated.



White line:
Sway bar 22mm front, 22mm rear
Subaru Rear H/D Sway bar brackets
Front Heavy Duty Sway bar Links
Rear Heavy Duty Sway bar Links
And what ever bushings come with the bars and/or links

$660

Or

KYB GR2 Struts for Legacy 92-1999 Set of 4
H&R Sport Spring Set of 4 for Legacy
Avg. lowering 1.25 Front 1.0 Rear or Avg. lowering 1.2 Front 1.2 Rear

$600

http://www.boxer4racing.com/suspension.htm
http://www.pdm-racing.com/products/subaru_corner.html

[Huffer]

Depends on whether or not you want to lower the car.

If you do, then I'd go springs and struts.
If you don't, then sways.

[Plays_with_Toys]

Do your struts need replacing? if so, then then I'd look at replacing a worn out component. Why not keep stock springs and replace struts and do the sway bars, and hold off on endlinks until you find out if they are really necessary?

[OutbackGT]

I say do struts + springs and just the rear sway bar. Don't bother with endlinks yet.

[kkushner4474]

Idk if the car is lowered or not…I mean it would look cool and all; I just want the best performance

My struts do not need replacing

I was told if I was going to get springs that it is idiotic to not get struts to go along with them and would struts by themselves make that much of a difference?

Same thing with the end links I was told to get them if I was getting bigger sways

I am just looking for the best performance out of the suspension

[Reason]

I would say struts and springs first, then do the rest. It is retarded to just do springs and not struts ...that goes both ways. I had that set up, it handled better than stock but the ride wasnt harsh.

[Huffer]

Idk if the car is lowered or not…I mean it would look cool and all; I just want the best performance

My struts do not need replacing

I was told if I was going to get springs that it is idiotic to not get struts to go along with them and would struts by themselves make that much of a difference?

Same thing with the end links I was told to get them if I was getting bigger sways

I am just looking for the best performance out of the suspension

You don't really know WHAT you want, do you?

"best performance" is such a subjective term.
Do you want a street ride with little ground clearance and the ability to take the odd corner well, or a stock height car that has very little body roll?

You CAN replace struts/springs without the other - sometimes it's your only option if you don't want to give up ground clearance (like me - replaced my struts but not the springs, as my springs were fine, but I can't go any lower in this climate).

Don't believe the hype. Do your research, and nail down your "performance" goals.

[scottzg]

better for overall handling. It doesn't really work like that

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?t=3033

[overl0ad]

Do you want a street ride with little ground clearance and the ability to take the odd corner well, or a stock height car that has very little body roll?


sway bars help with the roll yes?

i like how the suspension is now, as i mainly drive in peak hour traffic but the car rolls abit too much for my liking

edit:

just found this:

http://www.240edge.com/performance/tuning-bars.html

think it's a good read.

[sansMYSTi]

I would go with the sway bars and links - better bang for the buck IMO. Having a firmer ride with the shocks and springs are great, but if your body is shifting around on the suspension, it doesn't help much.

Before you buy the Whiteline HD rear bar mounts, check to see how your rear bar mounts to the body. I bought those Whiteline rear swaybar HD mounts and they did not fit my BH as it has the rear bar mounting vertically on a bracket, insted of mounting directly to the body horizontally like an Impreza.

Also make sure the rear links will fit your car - I bought the Whiteline "C" shaped rear links only to find out that they did not fit my BH, so I had to buy the spherical bearing endlink type to fit my wagon. When they say "Fits most Imprezas", it doesn't seem to apply to most Legs. Your best bet is to check with the main Whiteline Website and compare part #'s to those parts that the distributers are offering to confirm they will fit your car before you buy.

[kkushner4474]

I was thinking last night and correct me if im wrong...

Sways connect the passenger and driver side of the car and thus only help the car in handling thrugh truns and moving the car left and right

Springs and struts are located at each corner of the car and are independent of each other; thus being able to help handling not in jsut corners but also in positive and negitive acceleration

just a thought :?:

[sansMYSTi]

Sways connect the passenger and driver side of the car and thus only help the car in handling thrugh truns and moving the car left and right

So if you always plan on driving straight, I guess upgrading the sway bars are not important then :wink:

As everyone is saying - "it depends". If you can't do both sways bars and struts/springs, then you need to decide what is more important to you. If the stock ride height is too high and/or it dives/squats too much - get the springs. If you find the car "bounces" around too much - get the struts. If you find that the car is a handful in the twisties - get the swaybars.

As I find that my BH GT handles fairly well stock, and I like the stock ride height, I went with the swaybars and braces to make it feel more confident in the twisties. I do not plan on returning to autocross, and may only do some more rallycross, so for me the struts and springs were not important. I wanted a comfortable ride that I could comfortably toss around without scraping her going into driveways. It depends what is important to you.

Do not forget tires and rims though - investing in some good rubber and a +1 in your rims goes a very long way to increasing the capability of the car (especially if the rims/tires increase in width).

[OutbackGT]

I was thinking last night and correct me if im wrong...

Sways connect the passenger and driver side of the car and thus only help the car in handling thrugh truns and moving the car left and right

Springs and struts are located at each corner of the car and are independent of each other; thus being able to help handling not in jsut corners but also in positive and negitive acceleration

just a thought :?:

Yes, you will get less dive and squat which is a good thing, but if you really want to bomb around the corners you need sway bars.

[kkushner4474]

!!!SWAYS IT IS!!!

[kkushner4474]

ok i have a chance to get sways cheap..
Just a reminder i have a 99 LGT 5MT 2.5L BD
Here are the options
All suspension on the car is still stock

18mm sway - BD
22mm sway - BD
20mm sway - BC (but woiuld these fit?)

[Huffer]

Find an adjustable 18-20-22, or else just get a 20mm.

The 18 won't be much of an upgrade.

[OutbackGT]

22mm or Whiteline adjustable, I say.

[sansMYSTi]

Adjustable, and the bigger the better.

[Huffer]

Adjustable, and the bigger the better.

Depends ENTIRELY on the feel you want from the car. Not everyone wants a big oversteer. :roll:

[Perdue]

IMO, you best handling mod is going to come in the form of tires. The a rear swaybar, then your springs/struts. However, if your struts need replacing, you might as well go ahead and do spring/struts.

[sansMYSTi]

Adjustable, and the bigger the better.

Depends ENTIRELY on the feel you want from the car. Not everyone wants a big oversteer. :roll:

Its fun when you want it :wink: . But that is why you go with the adjustable and start at the lowest setting. Get use to it then adjust up till you get what you like.

[blackgtbeauty]

However, if your struts need replacing, you might as well go ahead and do spring/struts.

While that is true, he said his struts are fine.

I would do sways personally.

[filter27e]

Well if your choice is GR2's for struts then I'm going to say just go with swaybars.....

Who knows maybe KYB specs them differently for Subarus but when I owned my 2 J-bodies GR2's were a joke in the community. I'm pretty sure their warranty is void if you lower the car. I also have them on my GF's maxima which is stock ride height and I'm not overly impressed. Just seems like they're too harsh on all the little bumps.

[d1giPhux]

Well if your choice is GR2's for struts then I'm going to say just go with swaybars.....

Who knows maybe KYB specs them differently for Subarus but when I owned my 2 J-bodies GR2's were a joke in the community. I'm pretty sure their warranty is void if you lower the car. I also have them on my GF's maxima which is stock ride height and I'm not overly impressed. Just seems like they're too harsh on all the little bumps.

If you think the GR-2's are harsh.. dont get the KYB AGX's... ive had them on a few cars, and even at the 'softest' setting, they are still pretty stiff / harsh. I think thats the point.. they are supposed to be more stiff than stock struts.

[StatGSR]

when I owned my 2 J-bodies we were a joke in the community.

im sorry, i couldnt help myself..... dont hurt me.....

[Reason]

Well if your choice is GR2's for struts then I'm going to say just go with swaybars.....

Who knows maybe KYB specs them differently for Subarus but when I owned my 2 J-bodies GR2's were a joke in the community. I'm pretty sure their warranty is void if you lower the car. I also have them on my GF's maxima which is stock ride height and I'm not overly impressed. Just seems like they're too harsh on all the little bumps.

If you think the GR-2's are harsh.. dont get the KYB AGX's... ive had them on a few cars, and even at the 'softest' setting, they are still pretty stiff / harsh. I think thats the point.. they are supposed to be more stiff than stock struts.

A quote from scott on LCO

KYB AGX
1 - Same as Factory .........................................+00
2 - Same as GR2 ..............................................+15
3 - 50% firmer than #2......................................+72
4 - 30% firmer than #3.....................................+123

[backpack09]

If you think the GR-2's are harsh.. dont get the KYB AGX's... ive had them on a few cars, and even at the 'softest' setting, they are still pretty stiff / harsh. I think thats the point.. they are supposed to be more stiff than stock struts.

GR2s come stock on a lot of cars (DSMs) I do not know what subys came with (mine both have monroes) But the ride should be similar. But shocks play the smallest part of the feel of your suspension. They slow down the bouncing. Your springs really make the ride harsh, if you swap to a higher rate spring your are going to feel the road alot more.

Also, you should never just swap your springs, as mentioned before, because they will destroy old shocks in short time.

My point of view, do shocks and springs. If your car has been sitting on the same springs for 8 years, they are proabably getting tired, and have lost a bit of their strength. The best bang for your buck will definately be upgraded springs (higher spring rate), and adjustable shocks(AGXs). This will give your car the "best performance" IMHO. Sway bars are a hack fix without a good suspension to back them up.

Also on your list should be a nice set of wide tires (I have no idea what these cars run stock) I upgraded my talons wheels and tires from stock 6.5" wide wheels with 205 55 tires to 7.5" wide wheels with 235 45 tires on them and the Butt dyno deffinately registers more Gs.

"All info above is from experience, not internet BS. If you would like to argue what you think with no real experience please feel free to drop me a PM"

[shazapple]

Find an adjustable 18-20-22, or else just get a 20mm.

The 18 won't be much of an upgrade.

18 was a huge upgrade on my car

[Huffer]

Find an adjustable 18-20-22, or else just get a 20mm.

The 18 won't be much of an upgrade.

18 was a huge upgrade on my car

True, but you have an L. the OP has a GT, which comes stock with 15% stiffer suspension (over the other Legacy models) as well.

[scottzg]

agx are best use as a tuning tool (imo) since the knob increases both bump and rebound at the same time when turned.

GR-2 and agx are essentially the same thing, one has an adjuster knob on the valve. Our oem struts are made by kyb, gr-2's have the same housing and different valving.

shocks play a significant part of the suspension, they control how fast the car rolls. A car with stock springs and lots of compression will feel like it corners very flat even though it doesn't. GR-2's benefit higher speed handling in exchange for a firmer ride (good? bad?).


True, but you have an L. the OP has a GT, which comes stock with 15% stiffer suspension (over the other Legacy models) as well.Isn't that a puddle of marketing gibberish? I know on the turbo legs (92-94) the 'stiffer suspension' was more compression in the last 2 inches of travel, but the same springs. So far as i know, nobody has figured out what the bd gt spring rates are or how much preload they have.



Its fun when you want it . But that is why you go with the adjustable and start at the lowest setting. Get use to it then adjust up till you get what you like.

I had the privilege of being the passenger in a 70mph collision on the freeway 3 days ago largely due to a large swaybar (about what a 22mm bar is like on a legacy) and some bikes mounted on the back. We were doing 10 over the speed limit around a sweeping turn with a bump in it when the rear of the car slid out going over the bump and we smashed into the inside wall, followed by the outside wall.

I'd driven the car (a 97 jetta) a handful of times and had warned the owner to remove the swaybar. It was a suuuuper fun car, I could lift and slide though hairpins at opposite lock, then pull out with the throttle. The owner couldn't, and wasn't able to feel what a delicate balance he'd created.

I'm kind of a mommy on suspension set up, and that was pretty much why. I knew it was only a matter of time before something happened. I feel pretty bad about it, the owner is my friend and i helped with a lot of the work, not to mention my knee is all bashed up and my bike is totally destroyed.




Anyway, back on topic- why not do some wrx take-off springs and gr-2's? It will lower the car a tad, stiffen it a bit, and if you think it has horrible understeer you can readjust it with a swaybar change. I bet that will produce more grip than some goofy aftermarket spring or a potentially dangerous swaybar change.

And do your struts if you're gonna swap springs. It's not that much more money, and your presumably good struts are 8 years old.

[rougeben83]

If you think the GR-2's are harsh.. dont get the KYB AGX's... ive had them on a few cars, and even at the 'softest' setting, they are still pretty stiff / harsh. I think thats the point.. they are supposed to be more stiff than stock struts.

GR2s come stock on a lot of cars (DSMs) I do not know what subys came with (mine both have monroes) But the ride should be similar. But shocks play the smallest part of the feel of your suspension. They slow down the bouncing. Your springs really make the ride harsh, if you swap to a higher rate spring your are going to feel the road alot more.



Umm...shocks do more than "keep the springs from pogoing". Compression dampening and rebound dampening (what prevents the springs from oscillating) play a large role in how the car's ride and handling will be perceived by the driver. If you have a high compression rebound, your shocks will not allow your springs to compress as quickly, often the case for a "jittery ride", but if you have too much rebound dampening, the suspension will not be able to react to load changes quickly enough. That's why suspension engineers spend months tunning the dampening rates on a car along with the spring rates to get the right kind of ride and handling for the car that they are setting up. And why pro race teams spend a lot of time looking at suspension telemetry to set the car up just right for the driver to take advantage of the course and road.

That's also the reason some of the best aftermarket suspensions have compression and rebound as independently adjustable.

BTW, just to keep you from jumping on my back, I have experience doing this with setting up suspensions for full suspension bicycles (not the same I know, but the fundamentals of shock technology is the same), and enough reading about suspensions in general to know how to talk to other people about what I may want to change and adjust on the car when I'm at autocross/rallycross.

[kkushner4474]

So here is what happened

I got new old stock whiteline flat out springs to fit legacy sedans 95-99 cuz the opportunity arouse from eBay and it was cheap

Now I need struts and I'm a poor college student so I saw these on eBay KYB GR-2 struts

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KYB-GR-2 ... dZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KYB-GR-2-GR2-STRUTS-SHOCKS-SUBARU-LEGACY-4WD-95-99_W0QQitemZ160088381753QQihZ006QQcategoryZ33590QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Now one of the questions is would I need new top hats and is there other mounts or boots I need to worry about for the struts

The springs are made for my car and so are the struts...so from what I have read the top hats I have should be fine right??

[scottzg]

yeah, they're fine. They are a moving part of the suspension, so fresh ones do make a difference, but not like struts and springs do.

reuse your boots, they last forever.

might consider some offset bolts to help deal with the big drop flatouts provide.

[Huffer]

I'd get new strut tops. Both of mine bound up (bearings) at the same time I replaced the struts. So I had to drive around for 2 weeks with seized strut top bearings. Not cool.

[scottzg]

I'd get new strut tops. Both of mine bound up (bearings) at the same time I replaced the struts. So I had to drive around for 2 weeks with seized strut top bearings. Not cool.

sounds like you put the washers in upside down.

[Huffer]

Nope. The bearings had completely seized up. Both sides. You couldn't spin them without making the bearings go "pop".

1998 GT strut tops are SEALED - so you can't just pack them with grease.
I had placed an order with Jaime (Subiegal) and based on my VIN#, she had to special order them from Subaru.

I could have used other year strut tops, but the OEM ones were on order.

Here's a pic of the new, replacement one:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2007/02/Subaru_1998Legacy_FrontStrutTop0-1.jpg
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2007/02/Subaru_1998Legacy_FrontStrutTop3-1.jpg

[scottzg]

whoa, crazy. thx for the pics!

[rougeben83]

Hmm weird, I could have sworn the Group N ones that I have can be regreased...I can easily see the big bearings under the cover...