Turbo Kits (edited) vs ?

[RNandKT]

I see a lot of companies offering turbo kits for the impreza, that are way cheaper than the AVO kit, does anyone know if they are compatable with the legacy? I realize that they are limited to 6 psi of boost, but a good 230-250 hp out of them and with out a full engine swap seems decent to me. Especially when this kit is only $2500. Oppinions? Also on a side note, does anyone know of head gaskets available that are thicker than stock to help decrease the compression ratio? I have to do them anyway and if I could prepare for a turbo swap ....

here is an example of the kit.

http://www.epsturbos.com/Turbo-Kits+Subaru.product

I add a post, perhaps instead of going the turbo route there are other ways to squeeze a few more ponies.

[Reason]

Anyone will tell you to do a WRX or STi swap. It's more reliable, and a WRX swap is about the same money wise. 200-250 hp?? no way, you will be lucky to get 150-155 whp.

[RNandKT]

that would be sad since stock is 165 :-(

[02LGT]

that would be sad since stock is 165 :-(

I thought my GT had 165 crank or whatever they measured from the factory...but yeah even then after 6psi of boost...165 is really weak...at least 200 to the wheels i would think...but im not smart...and thats just my guess. :roll:

[sheepdog]

he said whp, so I'd think thats not too far off. You might be able to make 200whp, but you'd probably be pushing the limits of that motor, and will run into reliability issues. As was said, wrx swap prices are coming down, and most people, including me, will recommend you go that direction. To answer your question though, you generally get what you pay for with turbo kits, in terms of reliability. I also don't think there is a thicker head gasket available, but if there was someone like Cometic would be the place to find it.

[Reason]

that would be sad since stock is 165 :-(

Thats crank HP buddy. My 97 GT with cat-baclk, short ram intake and perring pulley was dynoed @117 WHEEL horse power and 119 torque.

[sansMYSTi]

that would be sad since stock is 165 :-(

Thats crank HP buddy. My 97 GT with cat-baclk, short ram intake and perring pulley was dynoed @117 WHEEL horse power and 119 torque.

Man its amazing how much drivetrain power loss there is in AWD vehicles. Same for the STi too - mine was rated at 300 hp from the factory (before they changed how it was tested - the new STI's are rated at 293 I think) but they were dynoing around 253 to 260 at the wheels.

[Huffer]

Cometic headgaskets will be able to help build the right HG for you.

As for the STi dyno... Buschur racing bought a 2006 WRX TR, and gained about 10whp just with a proper tune...not to mention better torque response and MPG.

The factory cars can be easily pushed past 300hp crank with just a little tuning.

[rougeben83]

There are a number of people that have turbo'ed their Legacies. 6psi with a properly setup EM, typically nets you 210+whp at the wheels, that's about 250-260hp at the crank (bhp). That site doesn't give a lot of details and I wouldn't trust whatever theyre selling. Go to RS25.com and search for FAT (forced air tech) and AVO turbo kits (sold by rallitek) to get the kits that have been tried and true.

Typical drivetrain loss is around 25% for an awd vehicle, 15-20 on regular RWD and FWD vehicles. Gotta love the extra diffs and wheels the engine has to drive. But I think it's worth it for Subaru's system (as opposed to some of those "awd" setups that are really FWD with some rear drive power going in only when things really get nasty).

I'm in the minority here, but do your HW on what your expectations are and what your plans are for the car before you decide swap or turbo. 6psi is the typical safe boost level, the typical limit is 8psi, depending on year of motor that you get (the earlier EJ25's got slightly lower compression to begin with).

Saying swap is just a knee-jerk reaction around the Subaru community in general, and I think it just gets to be a an excuse for some to not do some work with what they already have, but I digress :wink:

Any Impreza kit will transfer over to a legacy with some tweaks. You didn't mention what year yours is, so do some research on what you have to do.

[Reason]

25%?? That's seems pretty low to me. I always read 33-35% and even that seems low, lower that what I lost anyway.

If you are going to spend the money to boost your engine 6psi will keep you happy for a period of time. People that I know PERSONALLY always said boosting is like ca nice piece of ass, you can't get enough of it. Or like crack :wink: The guys at Victor Research mostly owned V8 American muscle cars 5.0 stangs. 2 of the guys I was talking to said one of them bought a boosted DSM and it just spread like wild fire. I'm sure anyone running boost can say it's addicting. Shit just talking about it makes me want more than I have...which is none!

Be realistic, don't say that you just want to spend X amount of money and 6 psi will be enough for my daily driver blah blah and so on. You will do more in the future.

[StatGSR]

crap theres a full ej20 swap in ebay for under 2000 right now.... i would never buy a turbo kit for a suby.

[sheepdog]

That's what I've always said... If you turbo your NA motor, you leave no room for upgrading the power later, you're maxing out the motor right away.

[rougeben83]

And people seem to forget you have you spend more money to get that extra power to that EJ20 :roll: . You start with less hp than a turbo kit and spend usually twice the amount of money, but you have more potential for power and spend less with a swap than a turbo kit. That has always been the bottomline between a turbo kit and an swap; I merely make it clear what the pros and cons are for each side and let whomever asks decide for themselves.

Moreover, one doesnt simply crank the boost up on an EJ20t without doing some of the necessary mods to it, and that's on top of the 5k you already spent putting it in.

Also, I wouldn't buy one of those kits, I would piece it together like most RS-T guys are doing now...oh wait I have, and it's less than half the price of a new kit or a bare ej20t engine.

Seriously, talk to JoeT, PHATsuby, and some of the other guys that have bothered to do something on their own rather than trying to get some consensus from people who only base their knowledge on hearsay, if you're really serious about getting some big power gains into your legacy.

[StatGSR]

^ 5k?? like i said there is one for under 2 on ebay right now, and they pop up for that price all the time, and include a tranny. im not saying a kit cant be put together for cheaper, thats a given, but still, piecing an entire and well working turbo set up together isnt always easy.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-Suba ... dZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-Subaru-Impreza-EJ20-EJ20-T-front-clip-engine-swap_W0QQitemZ290087262586QQihZ019QQcategoryZ33615QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

[RNandKT]

I new some people wouldn't be able to resist, Thanks for all the oppinions guys. As for boost, I'm not sure I want it at all, but I it seems like to get into the 200 BHP range it's hard not too. I am thinking of avoiding the turbo completely to stay on the reliable side of things anyway.

And I have read all the swaps pages and I'm not headed that route. Yeah you can get a 100K mile WRX engine on ebay for about 2 grand, but then you have to start searching for the other things you need like engine managment, guages, turbo crossmember, and they rarely come with the intercooler and etc etc etc not to mention how long my car would sit in the garage while I figured it out. And alll that adds up to more than the turbo kit in then end and a lot more hours.

What about going a different route, does anyone know how much the heads can be milled? If while I was in their I milled the heads to bump up compression (yes I know premium octance only after that, it's all I run anyway), and does anyone make slightly more agressive cams? Maybe with that and some of the external mods like the cold air intake, and exh (by the way whats the best way to go on the exh 2.25 2.5? best headers?) I could push that 200 BHP? Thoughts?

I know TWE makes really excellent cams and great headers (they are sure spendy though), But Cobb tuning also makes some nice cams for only $500 (http://www.cobbtuning.com/products/Default.asp?id=2382) they state 14 WHP increase.

For info My car is a 97 LGT with about 125 K Miles, and needs the head gaskets done, I have done them before on my previous car, so thats not an issue. Just would like to take advantage of the oppurtunity.

[StatGSR]

And I have read all the swaps pages and I'm not headed that route. Yeah you can get a 100K mile WRX engine on ebay for about 2 grand, but then you have to start searching for the other things you need like engine managment, guages, turbo crossmember, and they rarely come with the intercooler and etc etc etc not to mention how long my car would sit in the garage while I figured it out. And alll that adds up to more than the turbo kit in then end and a lot more hours.


did u see the link i posted, seriously, that would come with just about EVERYTHING u would need, and plenty of stuff u could still part out, including your motor and tranny. not sure about the one i posted but its probably less than 40,000 miles since most jdm swaps are. and if u dont tinker with it much, its guna be reliable.

also, if u even wana try to push limits NA, your still guna have to drop 2 grand and maybe end up with like 160whp maybe?

[Reason]

Check out www.Eastcoastswappers.com (http://www.Eastcoastswappers.com) Check out their prices and they give a list of parts you would need for a full swap.

[RNandKT]

I appriciate the info guys, but I have no intentions of doing the swap. First off 160 WHP would be great to me. I'm not racing, I just want a nice sporty ride. Second off, regardless of how cheap it is, it takes a friggin lot of work and time that I don't want to put into my daily driver. Thanks for the info, but I like the motor in my car I just wanna squeeze a little more hp and be happy with it.

It's great you guys like that swap so much and I know a guy who did it and he loves it, (it was an RS though), but it took him a long time. He didn't care cuz it was a toy for him. But it's not for me.

[sheepdog]

Yea... I wouldn't touch that You can mill the heads a good bit, if I remember correctly. There are more aggressive cams available, but I'm not sure who makes them, I think it's Crane. N/A builds are lot's of fun to drive.




some of the other guys that have bothered to do something on their own rather than trying to get some consensus from people who only base their knowledge on hearsay

You sound like you're implying I have no idea what I'm talking about..... I've done the research dude, and oh wait, have a swapped car, and also wrote the sticky in the top of the swap thread. Does that count as "doing something on my own"?

I merely stated my opinion, it's not like I gave the guy totally bogus information.

[StatGSR]

regardless of how cheap it is, it takes a friggin lot of work and time that I don't want to put into my daily driver. Thanks for the info


i can understand that u would be a little worred about time and stuff, but i dont see it being anymore time than it would be playing around with your motor. a motor and trans cant be swaped in a day, the wiring may take like a week or so, or u can ship it out and have somebody else deal with the wiring. im just trying to help u understand that doing a swap isnt nearly as time consuming as u may think, and the rewards will be 10x better imo.

[rougeben83]

Yea... I wouldn't touch that You can mill the heads a good bit, if I remember correctly. There are more aggressive cams available, but I'm not sure who makes them, I think it's Crane. N/A builds are lot's of fun to drive.




some of the other guys that have bothered to do something on their own rather than trying to get some consensus from people who only base their knowledge on hearsay

You sound like you're implying I have no idea what I'm talking about..... I've done the research dude, and oh wait, have a swapped car, and also wrote the sticky in the top of the swap thread. Does that count as "doing something on my own"?

I merely stated my opinion, it's not like I gave the guy totally bogus information.

Did I quote you directly?
...
..
.

No. I didn't, didn't I? :wink:

I wasn't even talking about badly about swaps, now was I? I was merely clarifying some misconceptions about turbo kits, related to this whole argument, even if I'm on the minority opinion.

PS- And yes I've seen your Sticky at the top of this page. Along with other swap threads on the other Subaru forums. I also did my research as I was looking into doing this last year, and it just didn't fit my current situation.

[rougeben83]

^ 5k?? like i said there is one for under 2 on ebay right now, and they pop up for that price all the time, and include a tranny. im not saying a kit cant be put together for cheaper, thats a given, but still, piecing an entire and well working turbo set up together isnt always easy.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-Suba ... dZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-Subaru-Impreza-EJ20-EJ20-T-front-clip-engine-swap_W0QQitemZ290087262586QQihZ019QQcategoryZ33615QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

5k is with parts and labor. That's what ECS quoted me, along with Tuning Factory, and a couple of other shops that I asked around.

You can do the swap labor yourself and save money, but I can install my turbo, have it dyno tuned, at it will still be cheaper; and I can tell you I can do it in 2 days tops, and not have a wiring nightmare that goes along with the swap.

I'm just trying to compare apples to apples here.

I don't know why everyone gets defensive around here when it comes to other's opinions about engine swapping. :roll: It isn't the end-all-be-all of mods that can be done to a subaru. The guy has clearly expressed his intention about going with the turbo route.

OP, I suggest to head over to RS25. Lots more people have done turbo kits than here and on NASIOC.

I'll leave the arguments to the rest of you guys.

[Huffer]

OP - should talk directly to TWE and Rallitek, see what kind of EM you'd need to run an 11.5:1 compression engine w/ stage 1 or 2 cams. You'd probably get to where you want to be, but I can bet it won't be cheap, especially on a professionally built motor.

Unfortunately, you can't just slap in some cams and be done with it on these engines.

Here's an idea for you - you could always find a 99/00 RS engine, SOHC, with the 10.1:1 pistons, get a thin(er) Cometic gasket, fit DOHC heads, and you should still be able to run stock EM with premium fuel.

[RNandKT]

When I started this thread, I knew I would get the normal just swap it out comments, but man this gets heated fast.

I have done some checking already with TWE and Cobbtuning and a few others who make few but select performance parts. TWE seems to make the best, but 800-1000 for a header and 800 for stage one cams is a bit pricy for me. They say that both can be run with the stock EM. CobbTuning has a set of cams that can be run with the stock EM as well and they are only 500, and I think I could get a custom header and complete exh for that matter under 800. Add that to some other "bolt on" stuff like cool air intake (although I have always wanted to try to make a functional ram air out of the scoop in the hood anyone tried this?), and you could get a decent N/A that didn't need after market EM. Plus I can do both head gaskets in a day and so a heck of alot better then having my car down for months.

Huffer any chance you know how much milling translates to what comperssion ratio? And what is the tollerable amount for what octane? I need to check back with TWE or Cobb to see how this would work with the increased lift on their cams also.

[sheepdog]

ehh, I suppose I got way too worked up over this whole thing.... just had a crappy day. Sorry guys.

[auspex]

That's what I've always said... If you turbo your NA motor, you leave no room for upgrading the power later, you're maxing out the motor right away.

i'm not sure if i get this, exactly. you can still build your motor once it's gone through the turbo transformation, right?

what is it that limits your ability to get more HP after the turbo install?

and, on a related note, how sound is this recommendation for turboing your NA 2.5 ? http://www.rs25.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58576

thanks!

mike

[rougeben83]

Another option with the cams is the DeltaCams route, you need to source a second set of cams to send to them and they do it for $90/cam IIRC (so a SOHC motor is only $190 or something like that), or you take your cams out and send it too them (I prefer the first option).

If you're going turbo, I would suggest not to get borlas headers and stick with the stock manifold; the borlas apparently chop up the exhaust pulses too much and create more turbo lag. TWE headers are nice...I have them on my car. The design and quality is really good, but I don't think they're worth the retail price, same with the Cobbs (I REALLY got lucky when I got mine for $150 used).

DLC over on NASIOC has COBB street cams on his car w/o EM, he's talking about it in his "how my engine sounds" thread. He throws a CEL in certain situations.

auspex, as far as the NA EJ25...it depends on how much you want to work on it. The bare NA block has been used in a car making 400+bhp...it had a built bottom end running a big turbo and all the usual stuff to take and engine to that kind of power level. Again, TBH, I wouldn't know why the shop that did this stuck with the NA block (I remember one of there reasons was to specifically see just how much the block could take I think), but it was their project...

What really limits most turbo kits is that it was done on a budget to begin with, so the owner doesn't really have that much of a budget to build up the engine beforehand; the stock engine by itself (without anything done to it) is limited to 7-8psi tops, and thats with careful use of fuel delivery.

Talk to JoeT as well, he's running an NA EJ25 with an impressive turbo setup - he's pushing over 14psi last I heard, and when he first took the turbo route, he ran 8psi on the street and 11psi at motorsports events.

What it really boils down to is a willingness to experiment (and prepared to fail just in case) and doing careful research before taking any steps beforehand. Also, you have to remember the three basic ingredients to making power; fuel, air, and spark. Turbo adds the air, you need the fuel to keep the engine from killing itself, and the right timing with the spark to keep it all happy. That means paying close attention to EM, fuel delivery and dyno tuning with an EM of your choice. Those are really the most important steps you have to consider if you want to go turbo.

Heck, if you want to upgrade your swapped Subaru to make more than 220hp, you need to do those three things anyway, so it doesn't hurt to know a little about those before you go either way.

[sheepdog]

Yea, you could eventually go to a 257 block, but thats really a whole new build. Definitely doable though

[rougeben83]

Yea, you could eventually go to a 257 block, but thats really a whole new build. Definitely doable though

Isn't that what xcntrk75 did with his new setup? (put in an STi block with his frankenmotor setup).

[sheepdog]

He did an 05wrx swap first, and is now running his wrx heads on an ej257 block. Same general idea though.

[Reason]

When I started this thread, I knew I would get the normal just swap it out comments, but man this gets heated fast.

We are a passionate group of guys :twisted:

[mr_choung]

this thread is heated up. i've researched for a while now and people say stay n/a while people go turbo. i'm still debating about turbo the MY97gt while i wait on a red06wrx(which i rare to find now). i've also posted a thread on rs25 and my kit i build up cost less then 1k. includes wrx up,down,crossmember,turbo,TMIC,legacy turbo fuel pump, greddy emanage ultimate(most expensive,can't go cheap on EM). so things i got left is mainly injectors probably off a wrx, tuning, custom 3 inch catback. all said and done maybe 1.5-2k tops. but boost is in my mind and thinking about a ej22e shortblock with my DOHC heads to lower the compression which those ej22e blocks can be found almost anywhere.

choung