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View Full Version : Need quick help on alignment for BE



subaru_terrence
03-17-2007, 08:44 PM
just installed whiteline springs on my BE last week. I used the stock struts and everything. I believe I need to get an alignment done asap, so I am wondering do I need to buy camber bolts for the rear as well or I should ask do they fit at the rear struts? I asked subaru's mechanic in dealership today..they said 02 legacy's rear dont have space for camber bolts but I would like to confirm what do I need to buy before I go for an alignment

By the way, should I go for this setting?
Touring Setup
Front Camber: -1
Front Caster: Max
Front Toe: 0
Rear Camber: -0.75
Rear Caster: N/A
Rear Toe: 1mm Out

Sorry if my question sounds so stupid because I know nothing about this

rougeben83
03-17-2007, 10:53 PM
yes, multi-link rear, no place in the linkage to put the camber bolt so that it will actually change the camber. Camber is not changeable from the factory either.

I think the only spot there that can accept a camber bolt-looking thing will allow you to change the toe instead (kinda stupid since you can already do that from the factory).

subaru_terrence
03-18-2007, 12:32 AM
so basically that means I can just get an alignment without buying camber bolt...right?

ten80
03-20-2007, 09:04 AM
Yep! The lowering springs will give you extra negative camber front and rear so no aftermarket bolts are necessary.

rougeben83
03-20-2007, 10:44 PM
Yeah, it'll be fine. I haven't checked the service manual for alignment specs for our BE's, but Impreza's and WRX's usually have about -1 or so of negative camber to the front from the factory to begin with.

Those camber numbers aren't too drastic to start worrying about alignment.

You may have to be more stringent with your tire rotations though.

subaru_terrence
03-21-2007, 01:35 AM
right now... I can tell my alignment is kinda off...sometimes my car leans to the left when I am driving...especially on hwy

rougeben83
03-21-2007, 03:04 AM
right now... I can tell my alignment is kinda off...sometimes my car leans to the left when I am driving...especially on hwy

Camber, which is usually the most affected by lowering springs, doesn't really affect pulling to one side or not; check to see if your toe is set properly. The rear toe outward may be contributing to it, but the front is usually the culprit.

Also check your caster. Caster isn't adjustable on BE's, but I know on mine, my car pulls a little to the left ever since I hit a pothole pretty hard; the tech that did my alignment stated that the caster on my left control arm was tweaked because of this so thats why I have a slight pull; he couldn't do anything about it. I compensate with a little extra air pressure on the left tire.

subaru_terrence
03-21-2007, 11:08 AM
I guess it is something with the toe?

Yersterday I realized that my steering wheel was pulled a little bit to the right...so when I got off the car and looked...my front right tire was pulling a bit to right. However, my front left tire was straight :S

scottzg
03-22-2007, 06:45 PM
you can't see toe problems by just looking. 1mm of wrong toe is enough to notice on surface streets. Visibly wierd toe will wreck a set of tires VERY quickly.

It's also possible that the old springs didn't lower the left/right sides quite how the new ones do, and what would be the bumpsteer has altered your alignment.

ben- why not replace your LCA? They're pretty easy to do (providing you lube the crap out of the chassis bolts beforehand) and i doubt you'd need an alignment afterwards. You might be able to see the bend in the lca, it always happens about 1" inward from the rose joint holding the hub on.

interesting that someone is suggesting rear toe out for an alignment spec. Wonder if that multilink setup does wierd stuff at the top of its travel or something.

rougeben83
03-22-2007, 09:20 PM
Actually, I have a whiteline ALK that I bought when I first got the car, but I haven't bothered installing them. It is probably tweaked around that area, but the problem isn't noticeable at all while driving.

Depending on what class I end up in on autox, I may put the ALK in sooner rather than later.

rougeben83
03-22-2007, 09:26 PM
Actually, I have a whiteline ALK that I bought when I first got the car, but I haven't bothered installing them. It is probably tweaked around that area, but the problem isn't noticeable at all while driving.

Depending on what class I end up in on autox, I may put the ALK in sooner rather than later.

scottzg
03-22-2007, 11:28 PM
i can't say for the alk, but i threw on some forester bushings and mounts, and didn't really like them. I've never really had the wrx problem of spinning the inside tire exiting tight turns (possibly because i don't have any hp?), but noticed the i couldn't push as deep into turns under braking; had to be more smooth. After 3.5 weeks i took advantage of the jy 1 month warranty and returned them.

the forester bushings relocate the lca to pretty much where an ALK does.


do i sound like a cheapass in all my posts?

dodik
03-23-2007, 08:18 AM
also check your drive shafts if you see a ripped boot then you maybe grinding the shaft because off all the dirt in it and that could be pulling you to a side as well as ball joints and tie rods check those as well.

rougeben83
03-23-2007, 04:24 PM
i can't say for the alk, but i threw on some forester bushings and mounts, and didn't really like them. I've never really had the wrx problem of spinning the inside tire exiting tight turns (possibly because i don't have any hp?), but noticed the i couldn't push as deep into turns under braking; had to be more smooth. After 3.5 weeks i took advantage of the jy 1 month warranty and returned them.

the forester bushings relocate the lca to pretty much where an ALK does.


do i sound like a cheapass in all my posts?

Nah, cheap is good :D I didn't know the LCA's from forresters were like that with the extra caster. I was looking into some group N LCA's as those are supposedly stiffer but don't do the caster that would kick me up a class in autox.

The braking thing is probably because changing caster affects both anti-lift and anti-dive characteristcs of the car; usually in a converse manner. ALK's will adversely affect the anti-dive characteristics, which is important during braking due to the weight transfer to the front.

scottzg
03-23-2007, 09:27 PM
Nah, cheap is good :D I didn't know the LCA's from forresters were like that with the extra caster. I was looking into some group N LCA's as those are supposedly stiffer but don't do the caster that would kick me up a class in autox.

the LCA doesnt change the caster or anti lift/dive, its the LCA mount itself. You could just put a heavier bushing in the stock mounts (ie: sti) to stiffen up the front end but not change the geometry. I tried the forester mount because it moves the lca to the same place, but didn't change the bushing. I think the Outbacks use the same mount.

ALK's really make a big difference in wrx's, not so much in my slow ass car.

I'm not sure i'd want a stronger LCA; they're designed to be the first thing to bend and break so you can slap a new one on and not have major chassis or mount damage.

OT question: you've got wrx rear struts, right? What did they do to your rear camber? I've had some rears meant for a wrx for a while now and finally got around to drilling out teh top mount bolt holes so i could get more rear camber. Stock they gave me 0 rear camber, which was a hoot, but kinda sketch on windy roads with passengers where i couldnt just stand on the throttle all the time to keep the car from rotating. (it would scare the passengers, isn't that ironic?)

subaru_terrence
03-23-2007, 11:36 PM
I just got my alignment done... I am not sure if this is normal...
I put on whiteline lowering springs and upgraded to 17" rims...

My left camber is -1.31 and right camber is -0.91
I am just wondering why do both sides have different degree?

scottzg
03-24-2007, 02:10 AM
juor hs1t iz teh b3ntzord.

doesn't matter much, rear camber has very loose tolerances. Just rotate your tires like youre supposed to.

rougeben83
03-24-2007, 05:04 AM
Is that for the front or rear though?

Anyway, a lot of shops play the "within the same range" game that the Hunter alignment computer or whatever spits out. So if it's in that same range, it's ok I guess.

Ditto on the tire rotation.

subaru_terrence
03-24-2007, 05:06 PM
Is that for the front or rear though?

Anyway, a lot of shops play the "within the same range" game that the Hunter alignment computer or whatever spits out. So if it's in that same range, it's ok I guess.

Ditto on the tire rotation.

those are my front cambers...
my rear are off as well but not that much..

scottzg
03-25-2007, 12:44 AM
those are my front cambers...
my rear are off as well but not that much..

oh. that's interesting. Why didn't they match them up? Your fronts have offset bolts with a rather large amount of adjustment. That much variation can be seen just by standing a few feet in front of the car.

I bet that both front wheels are exceeding the spec for negative camber and they just dropped both sides to minimum and set the toe from that. I'd see if they'll set both sides to ~1.25 degrees negative and recorrect the toe to suit. Worth askin.

subaru_terrence
03-25-2007, 01:34 AM
those are my front cambers...
my rear are off as well but not that much..

oh. that's interesting. Why didn't they match them up? Your fronts have offset bolts with a rather large amount of adjustment. That much variation can be seen just by standing a few feet in front of the car.

I bet that both front wheels are exceeding the spec for negative camber and they just dropped both sides to minimum and set the toe from that. I'd see if they'll set both sides to ~1.25 degrees negative and recorrect the toe to suit. Worth askin.

Are you saying that they simply ignored the cambers and just adjusted the toe back to zero?
This question is kinda stupid but I believe they need to take off my wheels in order to adjust the cambers right? Because from what I saw, they didnt take off my wheels at all

my friend works in that shop, so I told him to ask if they can set both side to -1 degree acording to the touring setup on my first post.

rougeben83
03-25-2007, 07:57 PM
They don't have to. Did they at least jack up the front wheels of your car while it was on the rack? When they did mine, after getting it up on the alignment rack they lifted the entire car by it's suspension hook ups, adjusted whatever, then set the car back down and measured again.

subaru_terrence
03-25-2007, 08:05 PM
I think they did lift up the car

scottzg
03-26-2007, 12:01 AM
i guess ill just post everything i know for the benefit of the internet.

on a subaru, there are 3 adjustments to be made and a few measurements they make but can't readily change.

To do the aligment they can't take your wheels off because they need to align the car with the car's weight on the wheels so the suspension is in the right part of its travel. The more anal among us throw weights in the drivers seat to get the car aligned when we're actually driving it. (i do this because im a big fatass who compressed the left side of the car about 1/2")

So, what do they actually do: they hook your car up to an alignment machine and get a baseline. Often, if it's close to spec, they will leave that adjustment alone. In the front they can modify camber and toe, and the machine checks caster, but its not adjustable on our cars. The tech sets the camber first, then the toe, because toe changes when the camber is changed.
Camber tolerances are pretty loose; you can have pretty bad camber and while the car won't handle quite the same on left and right turns, it will still generally track straight and tire wear will be negligible provided you rotate your tires occasionally. Incorrect toe, on the other hand, can chew up tires in a few tanks of gas. Since camber change affects toe, you can't just dial in maximum negative camber in the front w/o chewing through the tires with the toe change. Lurnt that one from experience.

Now, for your lowered car, the adjustment for the camber may not have been enough to bring the wheels back to factory spec camber. My guess is that even with the adjustment all the way out, you still had extra negative camber, so the tech just set the toe with the camber as close as he could get it. :arrow:

So, for the back, the only factory adjustment is the toe. Again, the toe changes as camber changes or the wheel moves, so the toe has to be adjusted. The rear wheels now have more negative camber, but since they haven't been adjusted their grip is largely unaffected by the lowering, they only wear the inside edges slightly faster and now grip relatively better than the front wheels, encouraging understeer.




:arrow: this is, by the way, on of the reasons lowering your car doesn't benefit handling. When the wheel reaches that point in its travel, it should be leaning in towards the car more. Since the subaru suspension leans the tire in less and less (negative camber gain diminishes as the suspension compresses) lowering the car wastes the travel where the suspension works best.


theres probably errors in here, its off the top of my head and i havent read it and i want to go out and get a frosty.