Brakes magically engaging?

[Wiscon_Mark]

Yeah, so I got the clutch done and everything, and it's all good...but sometimes the car just doesn't want to move. I can get it to move, but it's a struggle at the start, and then all of the sudden a *pop* and the car moves normally again. It's not engine related, because the engine revs fine in neutral/clutch in, and the clutch engages just fine, it's definitely the brakes (and no, not the ebrake) because if I pump them when I'm having this problem, they'll sometimes disengage.

Sometimes it does this, sometimes it doesn't (It's all from a startup though, and only when I've just started the car up). I'm not sure why it's doing this, but my suspicions lie either with a sticky cable, or something wrong with the master cylinder.

Ideas?

[Superu264]

ABS? I have no idea.

[Wiscon_Mark]

Well, I haven't had issues while braking, that's been normal...no, it's not behaving like the ABS.

Although - that sound that I hear when they disengage (after I power through it) does sound like the ABS going off.

[shazapple]

Probably a bad brake piston or slider. How do you know its the brakes?

[Wiscon_Mark]

Probably a bad brake piston or slider. How do you know its the brakes?

The symptoms

And when I was experiencing this, I put my foot on the brake pedal, and it felt dead until a certain point. When it wasn't doing this, the pedal felt quite normal.

It's really f'n strange that this only just starts right after the clutch is worked on...I can't imagine that the brake system was touched, really. hmmm. (yes the mechanic is trustworthy, I don't suspect foul play)

I don't think it's actually in one of the brakes, because this only happens when I have just started the car up, not every time I start from a stop in city traffic.

[JMoney]

Did you yank the trans or engine for the clutch replacement?

[ivwarrior]

Well, to me, it sounds kinda like the parking brake sticking. You sound sure it's not, so I'm guessing you don't use it?

Which end of the vehicle does the "pop" sound like it's coming from? Pull the wheels off that end, and check EVERYTHING related to the brakes. Make sure the calipers slide freely on the pins, make sure the pistons aren't frozen in the calipers, check the pads where they mount to the bracket, etc. Take a look at the brake hoses, are they dry rotting craking on the outside? If so, they're probably going bad on the inside, too.

With the calipers, if you find a "stuck" piston, crack open the bleeder. If the piston then moves easily back into the caliper, it's probably the hose that's bad. If it's still stuck, well, there's your problem.

[Wiscon_Mark]

Did you yank the trans or engine for the clutch replacement?

I didn't do it myself, but yes, the tranny was out. It shifts fine, I doubt it's the drivetrain.

Ron - thanks, I'll try that stuff out tomorrow if I can.

[JMoney]

In order to get the trans out, the axels come out. That might means your brakes get tweeked a bit. I think it's a front brake issue.

[Wiscon_Mark]

Okay, that would make sense, the noise seemed to be coming from the front of the car, although it is hard to tell.

[JMoney]

If you took it to the shop, take it back and yell loudly.

[Wiscon_Mark]

ugh, I don't want to go back, I just want to have my car....this has been a frustrating 2 months already.

I'll see what I can do myself first, it may be a simple thing. If it's not, I'll yell.

[JMoney]

You might want to do a quick brake bleed before you start tearing things apart just to see if that is somehow f'n things up.

[Legacygt_97]

Mark,

How long was the car sitting up at the shop? Sounds like a sticking caliper. I'd pull the calipers and compress them. Feel for any abnormal resistance. If you've never done it, I'd flush the brake fluid too. The moisture that brake fluid absorbs causes most brake hydraulic failures due to corrosion. If you are on good terms with the shop that worked on it last, I would bring it back, without pointing fingers. Good Luck with it.

John

[Plays_with_Toys]

Is yours a cable or hydraulic clutch? When my clutch was done the hill holder was not adjusted correctly and would hold at every light. That meant that so long as the clutch was in the car wouldn't move and it didn't disengage until after the friction point. Needless to say my starts were quite bogged and the car tended to hop (since it's trying to drive with all four brakes engaged).

If you don't have a cable clutch then you can't have a hill holder, but maybe you have a hill holder clutch?

[scottzg]

do you have a hill holder clutch? it sounds like an improperly adjusted hillholder.

*good call PWT, didn't read to the bottom.

[Wiscon_Mark]

I had considered the hillholder (yes, cable clutch) but it doesn't do this at every light, and when I engage the hillholder and start up on a slope, it works just fine. Again, if it's the hillholder, why did my brake pedal feel depressed?

I'll call the shop. Problem with just taking it back in, is that it's a good ways away :-? My dad's insistence that we go back to our old mechanic, even though we moved even farther away from them.

[scottzg]

just try loosening the hill holder cable and see if problem is solved. its comming off that big black lever on top of the trans going toward the front of the car.

[Plays_with_Toys]

When you're on a hill stick the clutch all the way in and let off the brakes. Now slightly depress the brakes (just a hair) and release the clutch (you can be in neutral), you'll feel the brake pedal jump down a little. The hill holder holds the brakes, which might explain what you were feeling with the brakes.

Near the transmission is a piece of all thread with a 14mm and a 12mm nut, this adjusts your clutch cable. Behind it, and at a bit of an awkward angle is a 14mm and a 8 mm lock nut. This is your hill holder. It adjusts in 180* revolutions. It contains a crescent shaped adjuster thing. So when you back that out you'll feel it lock into those 180* segways. I am 99% sure this is your problem, and it sounds like your hill holder is WAY out of adjustment which holds your brakes on for far too long. Adjust it and once it feels good (I adjusted mine on an angled driveway) lock down the 8mm nut and take it for a drive. You should be very close at this point, but just check to see that it doesn't engage on flat ground.

[Wiscon_Mark]

hmmm, I thought the hill holder just used the clutch to hold the car in place.

Okay, I'll pop in and check it out. If I'm totally lost, I'll shoot some pictures and you guys can help me out.

[JMoney]

Just take the damn hill holder cable off. That will 100% eliminate the issue, if that is it.

[Wiscon_Mark]

Just take the damn hill holder cable off. That will 100% eliminate the issue, if that is it.

Nah, I like the feature. I'm not going to take it off if I don't have to.

[JMoney]

Take it off to see if that fixes the issue. If it does then you'll know what's up.

[Wiscon_Mark]

Oh, I see what you did there :lol:

My bad, I thought you were just saying take it off permanently.

I don't have much time to work on the car, as it's being used by my mother while the civic is getting a suspension refresher.

[Sarra]

If you get a chance, do a visual inspection. Hopefully, your calipers look 100% better than mine. :(

All I can think of is maybe doing a brake bleed, but I don't think that would work either. :(

[Plays_with_Toys]

It'd be easier to adjust the hill holder before completely removing it.

[warrior]

Sorry to detour away from Mark's problem, but what the hell is a hill holder (I know what it does.. obviously) but do I have one??

If I do, how the hell do I use it?!

[Wiscon_Mark]

You don't, you have a hydraulic clutch.

You engage it by coming to a stop (on an uphill slope), you put your foot in on the clutch, and press the brake pedal firmly. Then you can take your foot off the brake, and the clutch will hold you there until you engage the clutch, leaving you virtually no time to slide backward if you start the car smoothly and quickly.

[Plays_with_Toys]

Yep. As long as the clutch is all the way to the floor, and the brakes midway or so, you can move your foot from the brake to the gas and until you release the clutch a little (mine is maybe half a centimeter of pedal travel and then it disengages the brakes) and you're on your way. It's not really meant to be used extensively (like hanging out at a light) because it puts added wear on the clutch, and it also makes backing down driveways kind of wierd (it'll sometimes try to engage the brakes, but otherwise it is a fantastic option.

[Sarra]

It uses the clutch? (My 1995 BK had one). Well, that makes sense, and it also makes sense why it hasn't been used very often.

[scottzg]

. It's not really meant to be used extensively (like hanging out at a light) because it puts added wear on the clutch,

how does having your brakes locked add wear on the clutch? The clutch has nothing to do with the system beyond having a cable connected to the pedal.

[Plays_with_Toys]

The fingers on your pressure plate and your throwout bearing are the ones that suffer, nothing else, but if those go, well you're into a new clutch again.

[Wiscon_Mark]

Near the transmission is a piece of all thread with a 14mm and a 12mm nut, this adjusts your clutch cable. Behind it, and at a bit of an awkward angle is a 14mm and a 8 mm lock nut. This is your hill holder. It adjusts in 180* revolutions. It contains a crescent shaped adjuster thing. So when you back that out you'll feel it lock into those 180* segways. I am 99% sure this is your problem, and it sounds like your hill holder is WAY out of adjustment which holds your brakes on for far too long. Adjust it and once it feels good (I adjusted mine on an angled driveway) lock down the 8mm nut and take it for a drive. You should be very close at this point, but just check to see that it doesn't engage on flat ground.

I'm going to go out and do that (now that we have all 3 vehicles in the driveway again, and I have a garage to work with) right now.

Any idea which way does what?

[Plays_with_Toys]

If you're holding the nut in your hand, counterclockwise disengages the hill holder earlier.

[TRUBLU]

One issue that the Subarus have is that one of the vacumm cables have a valve in it. As they age that cable can "freeze" I'm having issues with it at the moment. Here are my symptoms that seem different to yours so maybe I'm experiencing a different issue.

Car starts, back it slowly out of my driveway riding the brakes a touch.

Accelerate down the road and hit the brakes to come to a stop.

Pedal is dead as it won't move and I have no brakes.

Sail halfway through the intersection as I madly push even harder on the brakes.

All of a sudden there is a slight pop and my head gets slammed through the windscreen as the brakes get a grip.

So, now reading over my post I realise that this is a totally opposite issue but I'm wondering if that valve of yours has stopped working altogether. Or perhaps it got "left off" during the clutch replacement?

[Wiscon_Mark]

Nah, it's the hill holder, since it was suggested, I've tested it out a lot, that's definitely it.

[scottzg]

The fingers on your pressure plate and your throwout bearing are the ones that suffer, nothing else, but if those go, well you're into a new clutch again.

finally got around to looking at the diagram in the fsm, and i still dont see what you're talking about. can you explain, pretending that im stupid?

[Plays_with_Toys]

If you take a car, any car, that has a manual transmission, when you stick the pedal of the clutch in, it engages the throw out bearing and you begin flexing the fingers of the clutch plate. When the car is moving without the clutch pedal in, they are in a dormant state where they aren't being used. So... sitting at a light with your clutch pedal in does not wear out the clutch disc itself, but wears out related components. It's probably the biggest reason so many hydraulic clutch owners complain about their throw out bearing having slop. The design of this part is different in the cable clutch cars, hence they don't experience it.

So, flash to a hill holder car. If you are chilling at a light with your clutch in to hold your brakes, it is the act of holding the clutch in that kills it slowly, just like it would in any other car. But, in any other car, why would you hang out with your foot on the clutch when putting it in neutral is simple enough? There is no reason. In a hill holder car you can hold the car in place, but sticking it in neutral and holding the brakes is just as easy and doesn't wear out the clutch.

Does that help?

[scottzg]

yeah, that was the only thing i could imagine, but i have a hard time believing it's any wear worth worrying about- shifting flexes everything just as much. thanks!

[Plays_with_Toys]

Right, but when you shift your flexing it only for short intervals. Its the 30-60 seconds at stop lights that can really harm the system.

[Wiscon_Mark]

Okay, so I finally got at it (goddamn PITA to get to) with a deep socket....over 6 turns, and it won't click. It just spins all the way back to its original position. I'm about ready to disconnect it.

[JMoney]

Okay, so I finally got at it (goddamn PITA to get to) with a deep socket....over 6 turns, and it won't click. It just spins all the way back to its original position. I'm about ready to disconnect it.

Muhaha. Come to the dark side. :twisted:

[Wiscon_Mark]

Well, I messed with it some more, and got it to a point where it's not bad...probably one more half turn would be nice, however, it always snaps back, there don't seem to be any "notches"