Clocked vs. VASCAR vs. Laser vs. etc.

[losdiosdeverde86]

so, this may be cheating by posting this in this forum, but i was IN my "New Generation Subaru" when it happened, so i think it counts.

I got a speeding ticket today that was a total shock to me. blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda, the ticket said that i was "Clocked" as apposed to ESP, Laser, VASCAR, etc.

I'm debating whether or not to fight the ticket and the method used would aid in my decision making.

So what exactly does "clocked" mean?

[Kraziken]

Lots of departments have air patrol. If you look at the side of the road, sometimes you'll see white marks. These marks allow an aircraft to time you from two points, and calculate your speed.

They then radio down to ground units to pull you over.

I had this discussion with a fellow at work who has a Z06 Corvette. He has a Valentine 1. I told him, V1 isn't going to protect you from the planes. He thought the aircraft use radar or laser.

[losdiosdeverde86]

Lots of departments have air patrol. If you look at the side of the road, sometimes you'll see white marks. These marks allow an aircraft to time you from two points, and calculate your speed.

They then radio down to ground units to pull you over.

I had this discussion with a fellow at work who has a Z06 Corvette. He has a Valentine 1. I told him, V1 isn't going to protect you from the planes. He thought the aircraft use radar or laser.

no, it's a township cop. he did it himself.

[SilentRacer]

It means he was probably pacing you and then pulled you over baed on his speed or he was sitting by the side of the road and timing how long it took you from point A to point B and figured out your speed that way.

[Huffer]

I've only ever heard of "clocking" when they take two landmarks (like the white lines) and start a watch as you pass the mark. When you pass the other mark, they calculate the speed based on the distance covered within that time.

It's a legit way of determining the speed between two points.

Will it hold up in court? Probably, if it's a common and approved procedure. It's a low-tech laser/radar basically.

[losdiosdeverde86]

i think my main problem with this whole thing (and i neglected to mention it on purpose because i would get ZERO productive responses) is that it wasn't for "five over". however, i really don't think (and neither does my sister who was in the car with me) that i was going as fast as he clocked me because:

A: I wasn't blowing by people
B: I'm pretty sure i got passed going down the hill by someone else

he says he got me at 69.3mph in a 35. on the ticket he put that it was a 40mph zone.

i think i was let off easily enough and i'll bite the $185.50 bullet and move on.

[Wiscon_Mark]

Whether he was 5mph off or not, you were going way too fast. Bite that bullet good and hard.

[Reason]

Whether he was 5mph off or not, you were going way too fast. Bite that bullet good and hard.

You don't help much in this area.




A lot of cops around here would do the same. The write you up for going less so your ticket won't be too high. Plus in RI you can use "good drivers record" I think it's 5 years with no tickets and you can only use it once in that time frame. I really don't know how it works since I never had to use it yet.

[d1giPhux]

Id fight it.. most of the time, even if you show up they will at least reduce the price if you make a case. If the cop didnt give you a print out either of how fast you were going, i suppose that is one more thing you could use to your advantage. The best thing you can do is keep making the court date go on and on.. this allows you more time to save money, and also allows them more time to lose paperwork / mess up.

Also, check out this link.. has lots of good info you can use:

http://tinyurl.com/y7ocqq

[Reason]

What the hell are you talking about?? You must have a fucked up court system in NH or VT or where ever the hell you are.

[d1giPhux]

What im trying to say is:

1. If you have the 'radar' print out from the cop.. that means he actually used radar or something to scan you. If he doesnt however.. i dont see how he could just get away with 'eyeballing' it.. cause thats bullshit. If he didnt give you a print out.. you have a better chance of being able to get the fine reduced.. or dropped altogether. Also, chances are.. if you take it to court.. sometimes the lazy po's dont even show up.. and it will automatically be dropped anyways. Best bet is to lag the system.. the slower you make it.. the better the chances you have. If its worth that much to ya (would be to me). Also, check out that page i gave you.

[losdiosdeverde86]

What im trying to say is:

1. If you have the 'radar' print out from the cop.. that means he actually used radar or something to scan you. If he doesnt however.. i dont see how he could just get away with 'eyeballing' it.. cause thats bullshit. If he didnt give you a print out.. you have a better chance of being able to get the fine reduced.. or dropped altogether. Also, chances are.. if you take it to court.. sometimes the lazy po's dont even show up.. and it will automatically be dropped anyways. Best bet is to lag the system.. the slower you make it.. the better the chances you have. If its worth that much to ya (would be to me). Also, check out that page i gave you.

i read the page. interesting.

I dont have the time or drive to go that in depth into fighting it. it's 1 ticket on an otherwise clean record. could i get out of it? yeah, probably. but i have other more important things i need to spend time on like working and finding a job.

[Superu264]

Did you get any points? If so I would say fight it. If you show up for court you wont get points but possibly still pay the fine. (I'm assuming Pitt is just as fucked up as Philly.)

[backpack09]

What im trying to say is:

1. If you have the 'radar' print out from the cop.. that means he actually used radar or something to scan you. If he doesnt however.. i dont see how he could just get away with 'eyeballing' it.. cause thats bullshit. If he didnt give you a print out.. you have a better chance of being able to get the fine reduced.. or dropped altogether. Also, chances are.. if you take it to court.. sometimes the lazy po's dont even show up.. and it will automatically be dropped anyways. Best bet is to lag the system.. the slower you make it.. the better the chances you have. If its worth that much to ya (would be to me). Also, check out that page i gave you.

Again WTF are you talking about...

of the 10 or so Radar guns I have played with, none have had a magic receipt printing machine....

[d1giPhux]

What im trying to say is:

1. If you have the 'radar' print out from the cop.. that means he actually used radar or something to scan you. If he doesnt however.. i dont see how he could just get away with 'eyeballing' it.. cause thats bullshit. If he didnt give you a print out.. you have a better chance of being able to get the fine reduced.. or dropped altogether. Also, chances are.. if you take it to court.. sometimes the lazy po's dont even show up.. and it will automatically be dropped anyways. Best bet is to lag the system.. the slower you make it.. the better the chances you have. If its worth that much to ya (would be to me). Also, check out that page i gave you.

Again WTF are you talking about...

of the 10 or so Radar guns I have played with, none have had a magic receipt printing machine....

Interesting.. lol. You should be able to get a print out of what they scanned your speed at.

[Wiscon_Mark]

Whether he was 5mph off or not, you were going way too fast. Bite that bullet good and hard.

You don't help much in this area.




A lot of cops around here would do the same. The write you up for going less so your ticket won't be too high. Plus in RI you can use "good drivers record" I think it's 5 years with no tickets and you can only use it once in that time frame. I really don't know how it works since I never had to use it yet.

You completely missed my point. I was talking about his comment on the inaccuracy of HIS speed, not the posted speed adjustment the cop did. The cop did him a favor and he was still going way too fast. Fighting it in court when you were going that fast just seems kind of asinine to me.

[Superu264]

Fighting it in court when you were going that fast just seems kind of asinine to me.

fighting it = no points (if he got any)

[Wiscon_Mark]

Just seems like a dick move, after the cop already gave you a break, to drag him into court over it, when you were obviously guilty.

He was nearly doubling the speed limit. I'm sorry, I don't think there's any good reason for doing that :roll:

[Kraziken]

What im trying to say is:

1. If you have the 'radar' print out from the cop.. that means he actually used radar or something to scan you. If he doesnt however.. i dont see how he could just get away with 'eyeballing' it.. cause thats bullshit. If he didnt give you a print out.. you have a better chance of being able to get the fine reduced.. or dropped altogether. Also, chances are.. if you take it to court.. sometimes the lazy po's dont even show up.. and it will automatically be dropped anyways. Best bet is to lag the system.. the slower you make it.. the better the chances you have. If its worth that much to ya (would be to me). Also, check out that page i gave you.

You can have a speeding ticket on visual observation alone. A radar device is just another method of adding evidence. Considering the speeds involved it wouldn't take much, just clear observation notes from the officer on the ticket.

[Perdue]

Digi, my apologies, but it doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about.

Every police officer in the state of WV is certified in the use of clocking, pacing, and the use of speed detection equipment when they pass through the academy, no matter it be through the 3 month course, or the 7 month course that is giving to the WVSP. Many officers are now resorting to clocking due to the increased use of radar detectors, making it somewhat harder for them to catch you if they don't have a quick on/off switch/capability. That is straight from a close friend of mine who is a deputy. It doesn't take a genius to do any of that anyways.

Furthermore, a police officer is not required to give you a "receipt" of how fast you were going. As backpack stated, I've never seen any radar gun that prints the said receipt. Also, they are not able to show you the radar's reading as it is illegal for them to lock the screen. This makes sure that they aren't just showing you someone else's speed, who could have been clocked hours beforehand, in order to justify writing you a ticket. This is Federal Law, IIRC.

Now for my opinion on the subject. You were going entirely too fast and got a damn good break. In this state, you can be written for wreckless driving at 13mph over (recently lowered from 15mph over), which you were well past, or double the speed limit. Here, it's an arrestable offense for which you can do up to 30 days in jail, IIRC. In Virginia, the laws are even more strict, with anything over 70mph allowing them to write you for wreckless driving. I'm not sure how the laws are in PA, but I'd say he let you off pretty damn easy if he bumped the speed limit. Most cops would not be so forgiving.

You're looking for a job, and I understand. We've all been there before. If you fight the ticket and it gets dropped (being a small town, it's probably not likely the cop won't show, as that's a large source of income for small departments), then you'll probably still have to be court costs, but it will be less than the price of the original ticket. You could plea for the court's leniency however, as you've got a clean driving record (this assumes you've been driving for a few years). They may drop the fine and/or points under the condition you not get another moving violation within a certain period of time. This will most likely be your best bet. If you don't do something, you're going to pay more to insure yourself as a driver once the insurance company gets wind of things, which may cost you more than a the ticket itself in the years to come.

I hope this helps a little. I'm not trying to shun or belittle anyone here...just trying to help. Do consider yourself lucky though.

[RadeOn]

I'd say fight it, if you say that there's no way you were going that fast.
Just educate your self on how did they "clock you". I've heard stories of tickets being issued (not that I believe those stories, or those would withstand court trial) on the basis of two toll stations on the tollway :)
Was it a tollway by any chance? ;) 35mph limit though tells it probably was a city.
Anyway - sure, speeding tickets can be _issued_ on whatever grounds, including eyesight, but those will be dismissed in court. Office will have to prove that the means by which he determined your speed are accurate. Because of those reasons tickets issued using helicopters are easily disputable in court, since timing is done by human. If the cop was following you - you can request recent certification of his speedo, it should be rated for giving correct speed, as any other device, whether its a laser or eyeball. No certification (when requested by you) - no evidence.

[Perdue]

Radeon, you have a good point that clocking is subjectable to human error. However, for the speed to be off enough for the ticket to be dropped, it would have to be a huge error. The technique likely used in this case IS admissible in court.

Just so you understand the method: the time it takes you to cross between two landmarks is measured, usually by stopwatch. Then, the distance (a) is divided by the time (b), so a/b=c. Then, one mile is divided by the distance in question(a), so (1mile)/a=d (the officer probably already has this number handy). Finally, you multiply the answer to your first equation, (c) by the answer to the second equation, (d), so c(d)=e. (e)=Your Speed. It's pretty simple math...trust me. :twisted:

[backpack09]

You are giving the police more credit than they deserve... The ticket is based on 1mphs ie here in mass its $50 for the first 10 over the limit, and 10$ per mile over the limit.

There is no way they can accurately guess your speed to the mile.

Measuring your distance travelled also depends on the angle the cop is looking at you verses the land mark, his reaction time to start/end the clock, weather you change lanes, are driving the inside/outside lane around the slightest curve. These variables make that type speed determination very innaccurate.

[RadeOn]

Radeon, you have a good point that clocking is subjectable to human error. However, for the speed to be off enough for the ticket to be dropped, it would have to be a huge error. The technique likely used in this case IS admissible in court.

Just so you understand the method: the time it takes you to cross between two landmarks is measured, usually by stopwatch. Then, the distance (a) is divided by the time (b), so a/b=c. Then, one mile is divided by the distance in question(a), so (1mile)/a=d (the officer probably already has this number handy). Finally, you multiply the answer to your first equation, (c) by the answer to the second equation, (d), so c(d)=e. (e)=Your Speed. It's pretty simple math...trust me. :twisted:
Math is simple, analysis of a method error - is not.

[Perdue]

There is no way they can accurately guess your speed to the mile.

We aren't talking about 1mph here...we're talking about almost 35mph over the posted speed limit. It doesn't matter if he's 1mph off, or 10, the OP was still speeding, and admits to doing so. Why go to court and try to disprove a method of catching speeders that has been used for decades and is actually fairly accurate?

And I'm sorry, but a lane change or a slight curve in a different lane is not going to effect the time enough to matter a lot.

To me, the OP was speeding. He admits to doing so. There's no question as to if he was speeding or not, and questioning a well established way of catching drivers who choose to exceed the posted speed limits is ludacris. The best bet here is to use the spotless driving record to request the court's mercy and have the ticket erased.

[d1giPhux]

eh.. decided to delete it. Point being..

Listen to what you are told, never resist, suck the system off, and support your local 'good', 'honest', 'caring' police officers. :roll:

Go back to work slave.. nothing to see here! Pay your ticket and take it in the ass!

[Wiscon_Mark]

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2007/06/foot20in20mouthgif-1.jpg

[Huffer]

I can see digiphux will be quite lonely on his island with roads he'll have to build... ;)

[Perdue]

Digi, I'm not saying that I agree with every law on the books. I am saying that they are there to be followed and if you knowingly break one of them, you don't really have a leg to stand on when you have to "do the time". I'm not saying I follow the law by the books, or stay under the speed limit at all times, but if I get caught doing something I'm not supposed to, it's no one's fault but my own. This seems to be something this country has gotten away from...

[GrassyKnoll]

You have nothing to lose by fighting it except the time of showing up to court. (Trust me, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to this stuff). If you fight it, there's always a chance that the officer won't show up. It happens more than you'd think as an officer is not PAID to be in court, he is paid a salary and although court time is expected, not all officers show up. I've been in the position twice where they don't show up. If they DO show up, the worst that will happen is they say they have it on record and you lose the money you would have paid anyway. Whoop-de-fuckin-do.

In terms of the ticket, the most common reason that officers will reduce a ticket in a situation like this is to AVOID court. The simple fact that the more expensive a ticket is, the more likely the offender will fight it causes police officers to reduce ticket costs to avoid court time. A police officer would rather people settle any day because it means they don't have to go to court. If your ticket is the only case he's responsible for on the docket for that morning, there is a decent chance he won't show up to court.

This situation came into play last summer in NH. Criminal speeding fines (25+ over) in a 65 mph zone were ticketed at a $550 minimum. As a result, the number of people who argued tickets went through the roof. Officers were spending more time in court than on the road and they decided that it was better off cheaper. Fines were reduced after one summer.

That being said, I think you have nothing to lose by fighting it. The worst case is that you end up paying what you would have to pay in the first place! :)

[Perdue]

Not all officers are salary, Grassy. Only the smallest of departments here are not paid to go to court. I come from a family and group of friends where many of us are in law enforcement. A lot of departments here actually schedule a day for certain officers to be in court, for which they may be there all day, and they usually write their tickets to be on the docket for the day they're scheduled. When my uncle was in the traffic division, it wasn't unusual for him to leave at 8am on his "court day" and not return until 6-7pm that evening. The feds are actually giving grants to many departments now to cover the overtime they're paying officers to go to court, as well as pay officers who aren't normally on traffic to sit on the highways and clock people on their days off. A guy I grew up with has a base salary of 36k/yr. He made $52k+ last year taking advantage of the overtime having to do with traffic citations. The police departments are getting smarter...at least around here.

Either way, you have nothing to lose by fighting the ticket. It might just be a couple hours that could save you all together, but I think you'll get much more respect from the judge if you plead guilty and use your spotless record to request leniency...more likely to get out of it like that. Explaining why you were almost double the speed limit...that's another story.

[GrassyKnoll]

Either way, you have nothing to lose by fighting the ticket. It might just be a couple hours that could save you all together, but I think you'll get much more respect from the judge if you plead guilty and use your spotless record to request leniency...more likely to get out of it like that. Explaining why you were almost double the speed limit...that's another story.

agreed. I guess it depends how big the department is. Around here, all deparments fall into the 'small' catagory so I guess that explains how it could be different.

good luck! and drive slow :cool: