What next for my suspension? Autoxing BE...

[pdawg]

I started autoxing my BE this year. I 've got Bilsteins with H&R springs and a 22" IPD rear sway bar. I'm running yokohama's avs-100's.

It seems to push the front wheels through turns, instead of biting and turning. I'll admitt I do like to push it a little but how do I make the front bite more? Big ass front swaybar? 26 or better?

The shocks and springs put you in FSP class and I need to cut some time to be competative.

[RadeOn]

What's your alignment? Camber/caster plates maybe? Anti-lift kit?
Can't say much about FSB, I'm yet to put mine on.

Anyway, how's es100 for autox? I need smth cheap and decent on the street during rain, and not horrible in autox.

[RadeOn]

And why FSP? Can't you run STS/STU or smth?

[Huffer]

Bigger front sway will help the nose turn in better.

You might also want to remove the carpet and trunk material to lighten the overall car - at least the sound deadening under the carpet.

[sansMYSTi]

Pushing is hard to fix in Subarus - I autocrosses my bugeye and it was a bitch to keep the fronts from skidding. I never did get the STi out, put I heard they also pushed. Aside from the suggested aove (though a giant front bar may be a bitch on the street), I would suggest a front strut tower bar - mine did seem to crispen-up turn in a bit.

[pdawg]

RadeOn - I haven't messed with the Alignment yet. So it is pretty close to stock. The AVS-100's are great. The first time I went out I left the re-92's on. I switched out to the yok's and noticed a tremedous difference.

FSP is probably because of the full exhaust and CAI I'm guessing. I am new to the whole Autox thing and sort of ignorant when it comes to the classing of cars.

Huffer - I did take all the crap out of the back of the car and the mats.
I hate to start removing the sound deading material. Does it really add that much weight?

sansMYSTi - I forgot to put in my first posting that I have a strut tower bar.
How is a giant front sway bar going to make the car any rougher on the street?

In FSP I can run the race tires such as Kumho V710's or Hoosiers. I may go that route when the yok's give out.

[Huffer]

A bigger front sway is going to reduce the independent lift your wheels experience when you go up/down driveways - which can result in a rougher ride just because the car is more rigid overall.

You can increase front camber as well to help your turn in.

[MCarp22]

The bilsteins should be able to get a bunch of camber. Get as much as the factory adjustment allows up front, and maybe -.5 or so in the rear.

[RadeOn]

RadeOn - I haven't messed with the Alignment yet. So it is pretty close to stock. The AVS-100's are great. The first time I went out I left the re-92's on. I switched out to the yok's and noticed a tremedous difference.

Ok, almost any tire will be good after re92 :)
If I were you - I'd start with alignment + camber/caster plates. That way you can adjust at the event and not suffer from big front swaybars on the street going over bumps.
I run -1/0 camber front/rear on the street (you might have to get rear camber bolts for that with lowering springs) and do some combination of extra static negative camber and extra static positive caster (much more useful during turn via giving dynamic camber) which also adds some toe-out, that supposedly helps turn-in.

If you care enough to adjust at the event, they say getting some toe-out in the rear helps a lot.


FSP is probably because of the full exhaust and CAI I'm guessing. I am new to the whole Autox thing and sort of ignorant when it comes to the classing of cars.

If your cat is stock-type you're legal in STS (cat-back and header changes are allowed).



How is a giant front sway bar going to make the car any rougher on the street?

Running over bump (during turn especially) with one front wheel will upset the other one.

[rougeben83]

Get an experienced auto-x to drive your car while you're in the passenger seat.

Watch yourself get humilated.

"the biggest nut to turn is behind the wheel" as they say :wink:

Otherwise, ditch the summer tires, get some azenis 615's

[pdawg]

If your cat is stock-type you're legal in STS (cat-back and header changes are allowed).
I have a Cobb High flow cat. Not stock. I really don't care where I am classed because it is such a rush. Kind of like what Ricky Booby said the first time he gets behind the wheel.


Get an experienced auto-x to drive your car while you're in the passenger seat.

Watch yourself get humilated.

"the biggest nut to turn is behind the wheel" as they say :wink:

That sounds like a good idea. Maybe I can talk Mcarp into that the next
time.

Mcarp - missed ya last weekend. small turn out got in nine runs, One because of timing problem. Your nemisis the little white sprite came in third overall.

[HFSDevil]

Thats the route I went :razz:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/

[MCarp22]

Running FSP isin't the end of the world for him since he's in a paxed novice class and the ST classes are excluded.


That sounds like a good idea. Maybe I can talk Mcarp into that the next time.

I'd love to do that, but I won't be able to make it tomorrow either. I'll be out to the events next month though!

[rougeben83]

Yeah, I forgot to say in my little smart-aleck remark about autox, that don't worry what class whatever work you've done to the will put you at.

Right now, the biggest challenge is competing with yourself. Getting those lap times down through improving skill will make the most out of whatever modifications you put in the car in the future, or what route you decide to take with the car.

[RadeOn]

I'd still put camber plates, not because it will help (it will though), but because your subie will stop eating outsides of front tires so quickly which could get costly.

[Brockley]

The bilsteins should be able to get a bunch of camber. Get as much as the factory adjustment allows up front, and maybe -.5 or so in the rear.


I run About -1.2 front, and -.9 in the rear. (thats on all stock suspension)

anyone else wanna sugguest some Caster adj. here? that should help a bit, As would a bit of a toe adj.

[Jedi Taxi]

Well brockley, that is a fine adjustmet for the rear end heavy wagon (note: im not hatin on it) For a sedan BD, Im thinkin something along the lines of -1.1 rear and -0.8 front. But thats just a rough guess right now, i'll run up some math in a bit and figure out what it should be (according to drivers driving style, ask how much grip they want, dampening force including spring and shocks, suspension angle geometry, weight per side of car, chassis flex, sway bar flex)

[rougeben83]

The bilsteins should be able to get a bunch of camber. Get as much as the factory adjustment allows up front, and maybe -.5 or so in the rear.


I run About -1.2 front, and -.9 in the rear. (thats on all stock suspension)

anyone else wanna sugguest some Caster adj. here? that should help a bit, As would a bit of a toe adj.

From an autox perspective, as much negative camber as you can possibly get is ideal. The way the front mcpherson suspension is designed, means that the camber changes positively as you load the suspension, meaning the more negative camber you have set beforehand will offset the positive that will occur in transition.

[pdawg]

I figured out how camber is set when I put the suspension bits on. We basically set the camber bolts back to where they were.

When you guys say set the front to -1.9 what exactly are you saying. I am guessing its kind of like the wheels on my uncles old bug with it back wheels riding on edge. /--\ How do I measure this?

[sansMYSTi]

A bigger front sway is going to reduce the independent lift your wheels experience when you go up/down driveways - which can result in a rougher ride just because the car is more rigid overall.

You can increase front camber as well to help your turn in.

What he, and RadeOn said. Hitting a bump in a turn with an oversized front swaybar can make the car go squirrely. I would, and will be, go with a front bar bigger than stock, but not much bigger. That coupled with some non-stock-plastic endlinks will make the car handle better without scaring me in a bumpy turn.

[Jedi Taxi]

From an autox perspective, as much negative camber as you can possibly get is ideal. The way the front mcpherson suspension is designed, means that the camber changes positively as you load the suspension, meaning the more negative camber you have set beforehand will offset the positive that will occur in transition.

despite the truth of this, you don't want too much negative camber that you end up giving up turn in grip, exiting grip, or straight line grip all for in corner grip. be mindful of your tires contact patch, too much camber will steal this from you. The ideal set up will have a camber setting that works in conjuction with the swaybars, dampening forces, weight balances, and driving style.

[Brockley]

also the Caster Adj. would be nice, but this is not factory adjustable... but there are kits, right?!?

[Huffer]

I figured out how camber is set when I put the suspension bits on. We basically set the camber bolts back to where they were.

When you guys say set the front to -1.9 what exactly are you saying. I am guessing its kind of like the wheels on my uncles old bug with it back wheels riding on edge. /--\ How do I measure this?

It can really only be measured with an alignment rack.

Get it up on a rack, then have them adjust it as much as possible to 0 toe and -1.5 camber in the front - should be easily done with a lowered car.

My Impreza had -1.0 rear camber just with lowering springs. When you lower a car, you automatically gain negative static camber anyway.

[rougeben83]

From an autox perspective, as much negative camber as you can possibly get is ideal. The way the front mcpherson suspension is designed, means that the camber changes positively as you load the suspension, meaning the more negative camber you have set beforehand will offset the positive that will occur in transition.

despite the truth of this, you don't want too much negative camber that you end up giving up turn in grip, exiting grip, or straight line grip all for in corner grip. be mindful of your tires contact patch, too much camber will steal this from you. The ideal set up will have a camber setting that works in conjuction with the swaybars, dampening forces, weight balances, and driving style.

Yes that's true, but I was talking specifically about his circumstances, where from the stock points, you'd be hard pressed to get anything above -2 camber. I've seen some run up to -5 to -6 on the front of their autox dedicated subaru's, just as a perspective.

[Jedi Taxi]

With that kind of negative camber, you'd have to have a VERY specific tire for the car. (depending on the car) I bet that the people with harsh camber settings like that really lay down great times if their driver is skilled enough. Basically so long as they actually have a tuned camber setting and not just wanting to make their car a low rider, im cool with it. I usually like to run with street tires, so that i can just drive right home smoothly, as well as slicing through corners.

[pdawg]

I've seen some run up to -5 to -6 on the front of their autox dedicated subaru's, just as a perspective.


With that kind of negative camber, you'd have to have a VERY specific tire for the car. (depending on the car) I bet that the people with harsh camber settings like that really lay down great times if their driver is skilled enough.

Which brings us back to autoxing in FSP class. Yes like Mike said I am in pax novice class right now, but I've watched this purpose built FSP VW Rabbit. It is usually 10 to 15 sec's faster than I am. I know that I will never be that fast unless I take my car to the limit of FSP class which would make the car a bitch to drive on the street. So I think I will just resign myself to learning how to drive my car as fast as I can the way it is.

[Huffer]

probably the best mod you can do is driver training. I've seen a great driver in a stock 98 Outback with auto beat the pants off a noob with great tires, decent camber and a lighter car.

[Kraziken]

I felt a sharper turn in response with Whileline ALK's. I think they are a worthwhile upgrade.

[MCarp22]

I know that I will never be that fast unless I take my car to the limit of FSP class which would make the car a bitch to drive on the street. So I think I will just resign myself to learning how to drive my car as fast as I can the way it is.

Yeah, i'd leave the car alone and stay in the novice class for now. Once you graduate from the novice class and you want to go faster, i'd get a set of RE01Rs and run FSP in the open street tire class. I guarantee that once you can drive a bit better, going from a normal summer like your ES100s tire to a max performance one like RT615s or the new RE01Rs will drop like 2 seconds off your times.

Could you post up the video of me riding along with you from a couple events ago? That would be fun!

[RadeOn]

I guarantee that once you can drive a bit better, going from a normal summer like your ES100s tire to a max performance one like RT615s or the new RE01Rs will drop like 2 seconds off your times.

Not to hijack the tread, but what do you think of re01r compared to say kumho mx. I'm looking for a new set of tires, that would be good in the wet as well (I hear rt615 still suck at this department, although not as much as older 215).

[pdawg]

Could you post up the video of me riding along with you from a couple events ago? That would be fun!

Your wish is my command. I didn't have the camera position particularly well but the audio is fun to listen to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86IyBanIv0A

Here is one from 2 weekends ago. No its not raining. I need to learn to shuffle the wheel and keep my hands on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fhefuc-Tpk

enjoy.