Update on intermittent speedometer

[Duff]

Dropped the car off at the dealer for two days and had the speedometer problem checked.

They claim that it is not in the transmission but that it is either a harness or a second sending unit at a different location than the one they replaced on the transmission. They replaced the one that goes into the transmision.

They are planning to drive it until the cel comes back on and the speedomenter doesn't work again, then they will be able to tell for sure which part it is.

Rather than leave it there for the weekend I told him I would pick it up and drive it. When the speedometer stops working and the check engine light comes on I'll drive it over and drop it off.

For them to get the speedometer to stop working is going to take a long time driving it short distances between working on other cars, I told them; because my son and I took the car on Monday through Wednesday to Washington, DC and put about five hundred miles on it round trip. The speedometer only failed to work twice during this trip and the check engine light goes out after the system resets itself after a few hours or a certain number of miles.

ONE POINT TO NOTE: while in DC I pulled out of parking lot into a heavily travelled several lane main road and floored it to kick it down into low gear to get into traffic and accross the lanes into the far left lane where we needed to be for a turn. When pulling onto the road the transmission downshifted to accellerate into the traffic and the engine started to buck and misfire, running very poorly. I had to let off the gas and gain speed more slowly but still made enough speed to get over into the left most lane for the turn ahead. I said to my son that maybe we got some bad gas and he said that exactly when the misfiring was happening he looked at the speedometer and that it was not working.

This makes me wonder if somehow the speedometer failure is affecting the engine management system or brain in such a way as to adversely affect hard accelleration, or performance above for instance 4500 rpms. Does this make any sense, or was it just probably bad gas.

The speedometer started working almost immediately because after my son said it was not working I glanced down and it was working again. Also I floored it and ran the rpms up to near the red line with no misfiring or bucking whatsoever. Since the episode of misfiring I have put about 450 miles on the car.

When I picked it up at the dealer on Friday I noticed that immediately when I pulled away from the place the speedometer was not working but started working the first time I stepped on the gas fairly hard, within fifty yards of starting out. Also, curiously, the CEL did hot come on and I have not seen it come on since leaving the dealer all weekend long. I wonder if they somehow disabled the CEL light.

Also getting a different story from know it all, pushy, type parts manager who is telling me a different story than the service manager and says I have to wait for the speedometer to completely fail before they will be able to diagnose the exact component that is failing.

Any ideas on this development so far?

Thanks in advance,
Duff
mjbolduc@dejazzd.com

Also, I put a new set of spark plugs in: autolites gaped at 0.040 and it idles much more smoothly, even though it didn't idle very badly before with what looks like the original NGK plugs worn to a gap of about 0.050. The manual says to gap between 0.039 and 0.043. The autolite site sayst to gap at .044 for my vehicle, 1995 Legacy wagon. I figured I'd go by the owners manual and gap within the specs for the NGK and Champion plugs they mention there. What do you think?

I first gaped the autolites at .044 but changed them to .040 and notice an all round smoother running enging both at idle and at speed.

[Huffer]

First thing - if you are updating on an existing problem, please don't start a new thread. Just repost to your old thread.

Second.
The speedometer is NOT hooked into the engine fueling/ignition cycle.
This is proved by the modulation of the tachometer when you press/depress the accelerator.

Third - having new spark plugs is going to result in a smoother power delivery and idle, having them gapped to factory spec is even better.

Fourth - when flooring the throttle, you essentially go into WOT mode and the O2 sensors go into CLOSED loop mode where the car dumps maximum fuel, spark and air in. If you have the wrong gap spark plug, you will end up with a misfire under extreme situations.

[Duff]

My apology on the oversight with the extra post. I thought I was supposted to keep it toward the top to keep it recent. I'm not fully tuned in to posting.

Thanks for the great info though. I really appreciate it. Obviously it helps us understand what's going on, especially with the dealer people talking in all sorts of directions.

Also, if I was to push the issue with the dealer, since we just bought the car from them; do you think it would be of any use to mention that they had me sign an obviously inaccurate mileage disclosure form and suggest that they had to have known that the odometer reading was incorrect? They will certainly deny any knowledge of actually knowing that the odometer was not reading correctly, if there is any reason for them to be concerned. I would imagine that that form is supposed to be correct and shouldn't be just filled in with a number that they knew was not correct. Do you think I have any leverage if I bring that up? Even though they did not turn back the odometer, they must have known that miles were omitted that had accumulated during the periods of the odometer nonfunctioning. Just denying that they knew the problem existed might be enough of an excuse to keep them out of hot water. There is nothing in the service record that I got from them from when the previous owner had the car serviced there that indicates anything about the speedometer not working right.

Duff

[Huffer]

There's pretty much no comeback on the dealer for a non-functioning speedo - it might literally have just failed to work after you bought it.
My car was fine for 6 months after purchase, then one day, it stopped working until I hit 40mph.
It's still like that, moreso in winter.

So my 209,000miles is probably more like 215,000miles.

[Duff]

According to the dealer, one of the people there, the speedometer will eventually just quit working. It went off again this evening for a little while and it kicked back in at I'd say around fourty. I wonder if there is a correlation. I'll watch how it acts.

How often does your speedometer not work? Once a day, week, couple times a week, or what? How many miles have you put on the car with the problem speedometer and have you ever had problems getting it inspected. I might just hang with it for a while and see if it is stable. I do, however, have the option of working with the dealer, as they said they would work with me, which means something like they will help absorb some of the cost to repair it. Is it sensible to fix it is another question. We plan on keeping the car a long time, if possible. I'm thinking the sooner that I get the cooperation from the dealer the more likely it is that they will help me out with the cost of it. If I let it roll they might be less likely to help out at some future date.

Duff

[Huffer]

I've had the intermittent speedo from about 180k.
If it fails to work, I just wait until I am on a road that allows me to hit 40mph. I believe there's a low-voltage issue somewhere in the car that results in insufficient current until the car is under load (I believe 40mph is the magic figure for my BD- sedan).

The intermittent speedo prevents cruise control from working, as the cruise module hooks into the speedometer reading.

Likewise, my ScangaugeII OBD scanner registers "0MPH" when the speedo isn't working.

One possible solution for you is to replace the gauge cluster in the car.

[Duff]

I put a new battery in our 95 Legacy and after sitting for almost two days the battery was almost completely dead. The keys were still in it. Maybe they weren't turned completely off, but I suspect a battery drain somewhere.

Also, the speedometer failed again today when I finally started the car and I also immediately noticed that when I kicked the car into passing gear that when the tach jumped up above 4500 rpm it started to stumble and not run right until I let off the gas. The speedometer was not functioning at the time. The check engine light came on after the speedometer failed. When I called the dealer he said I need to bring it back in when the speedometer is not working and the CEL is on.

Shortly later the speedometer started functioning and I stepped on it and kicked it down into passing gear and took it up close to red line without it stumbling, misfiring or anything. It ran perfect. Maybe it was just warmed up more. But I'm suspecting something more.

When I had the new battery put in the computer test showed the alternator and starter working properly.

[pdawg]

I just watched ebay until I found one and replaced it. end of problem.

[Huffer]

I just watched ebay until I found one and replaced it. end of problem.

Found one WHAT? Speedo sensor? Dash cluster? Battery?

[pdawg]

I just watched ebay until I found one and replaced it. end of problem.

Found one WHAT? Speedo sensor? Dash cluster? Battery?

Speedometer cluster, isn't that what we are talking about? Mine would stick, then sometimes it would peg al the way around.

[Huffer]

I just watched ebay until I found one and replaced it. end of problem.

Found one WHAT? Speedo sensor? Dash cluster? Battery?

Speedometer cluster, isn't that what we are talking about? Mine would stick, then sometimes it would peg al the way around.

Not necessarily. We were talking about the speedo being intermittent and the possible fixes and causes of the problem.

Thanks for the update though.

[Duff]

Brand new battery just barely turns it over one time each turn of key but started this morning. Took it to the dealer. They could find nothing wrong with the starting system on their equip. Want to keep it overnight and see if it does the same thing in the morning it has been doing for last two mornings. Possibly weak battery, possibly something else like the ignition switch in my opinion. We'll see what they say.

The speedometer was not working and the CEL was on, conditions they wanted currently happening, this morning when I dropped it off. This must have been useful information to them because they have ordered a new speedometer cluster. I hope they are not just throwing parts at it.

The engine stumbling above 4500 rpms problem did happen with the speedometer functioning. It only has done this when the engine is still not fully warmed up, and only in passing gear.

I noticed the AT oil light flash three times today when I started the car after stopping for a minute and restarting. Did it again and no flashing AT oil temp light. This could be related to the AT system control according to the manual and might be related to the stumbling when it hits passing gear cold.

Seems like I'm having a lot of problems for a car I spent 4K on. Any opinions? At least the dealer is working with me. I will have to be paying some fraction of the cost though. Burns no oil. Runs great except for these problems stated above.

It sits at the dealer tonight and the dash cluster is supposed to come in tomorrow. No telling how long it will be there or how much it will cost. The dealer just said he would work something out with me.

I'm thinking with a used car with over 100K on it you need to expect to fix some things. I just hope it is fixable without costing way too much.

Duff

[Huffer]

$4000 is what I paid for my BD sedan. It does take some work getting it to where you want it to be.

The AT light flashing is usually related to low temp or insufficient fluid.
To remedy the insufficient fluid, top up.

I actually drained all the ATF when I bought my BD, and refilled with Quaker State Dexron II + a small bottle of LubeGard ATF Protectant. It helped with the 1-2-3 shifts, kickdowns and also eliminated the AT light flashing in only but the coldest weather.

The AT's need a little more time to warm up also.

[Duff]

New speedometer installed by dealer. We will see if this stops the intermittent problem.

Coincidental Note: We got in the car at the dealers after I paid 225 US, dealer split cost with me, and the heater/AC fan speed knob only works on full blast, positions one, two, and three don't blow air.

They took the resistor out on the spot and showed me that it is shot. Not knowing what a shot blower switch resistor looks like I couldn't tell much. It was, however, heavily rusted and the coils were severely rusted. I also noticed a green line about one eighth inch thick going straight up and down two of the wire coils. Whether this is corrosion or corroded glue, solder, or whatever I don't know. I didn't see any obvious breaks in the rusted coils though.

They say that the knob to change blower speeds is not near the dash speedometer unit they replaced and are chalking it up to coincidence. I pay for part, they put it in 50 US. We will see if this solves problem.

I'm thinking the mechanic leaned on the rotary blower switch when replacing the speedometer and got it jacked up so that the contacts don't line up right. I don't want to take it apart myself and I must admit, the resistor unit is severely corroded and rusted.

I like the car. It runs great most of the time. Uses no oil and is in great looking shape. My wife is suggesting I bought a junker and my son is wondering if she is right. I figure you need to spend some money on a used car to get it right. Maybe I should get a Haynes manual and try to fix some stuff myself.

Any observations?

Duff

[Bdubs]

You'll find once you get to know the car, it is a pretty simple vehicle to keep up. I find stupid stuff going wrong with the car, that doesn't really hinder it mechanically, but random things, like the electric antenna not working and the hatch handle rotting off the darn car. (all of which I have fixed myself thanks to fellow owners)
Feel free to ask about any issues with your car, because chances are one of us had the same problem you may have. As dumb as the problem may be.

[Huffer]

I like the car. It runs great most of the time. Uses no oil and is in great looking shape. My wife is suggesting I bought a junker and my son is wondering if she is right. I figure you need to spend some money on a used car to get it right. Maybe I should get a Haynes manual and try to fix some stuff myself.

Any observations?

Duff

You paid $4000 for a car. It's going to have issues. That's why you paid $4000 for it, and not $9000+ for it. Even new cars have issues. Price tag isn't necessarily a representation of reliability or quality (just look at Mercedes and BMW - great quality, horrid reliability).

A Haynes or Chilton is possibly the best $16 anyone can spend on a car.

[Duff]

So far it's working, the speedometer.

Two hundred miles on it without it failing to work. No CEL.

Heater resistor replaced and all four speeds of the heater blower are working.

Have not had a starting problem but think the problem might resurface, since no corrective action was taken. Maybe when they checked all the connections they tightened something up.

Someone mentioned fixing the antenna not going up and down. Any ideas on that would be appreciated, or should I technically start a new thread in the electrical area?

Incidentally, he has a 98 fire engine red Outback with thirty thousand more miles on it, 160000, he would trade me even, the dealer. It has a noticeable engine tick and doesn't run as smooth as our Legacy. Plus there is and CEL. No sunroof. Tight handling but not glassy smooth brakes at high speed like our Legacy has. You can feel it shake when you brake hard at high speed. We are thinking we are better off keeping and working on our Legacy 95. The dealer says the motor in the 95 is far superior.

Any feedback or direction?

Duff

[Huffer]

Stay with the car you have - you now have some good knowledge about the car, and it's likely the problems will be minor or disappear for several thousand miles.

Keep the oil and fluids up, change them often and don't abuse it too much, you'll be fine.

Electric antenna - you can replace this, or simply replace it with a short, non-extendable "beesting" type. Cheap, effective.

[Duff]

The new speedometer has six hundred plus miles on it without failing yet. This is good I am assuming.

I did not go to the dealer but had a Mennonite starter/alternator shop rebuild the starter. The starter has not clicked in the morning since and it spins over like a champ. The specialist showed me the old parts and what was happening with the starter. Glad I took it there. I really like the car. It is running great.

I wonder if there are any other things I should do to it like PVC valve, etc. The cooling fluid looks greyish. Can I easily drain this down and fill it up with fifty fifty mix. If so what type of antifreeze should I use? I have no idea and have been owning new cars where they warn that you should use only their proprietary products.

What antifreeze can I use, like a type available at w mart?

Duff

[Huffer]

I wonder if there are any other things I should do to it like PVC valve, etc. The cooling fluid looks greyish. Can I easily drain this down and fill it up with fifty fifty mix. If so what type of antifreeze should I use? I have no idea and have been owning new cars where they warn that you should use only their proprietary products.

What antifreeze can I use, like a type available at w mart?

Duff

Buy a Haynes manual and follow the tune-up procedures there. The PCV valve is an easy replacement, and can be done in 5minutes. Part is available at any auto parts store.

Coolant - definitely worth draining and refilling - I use Prestone 50/50 Global mix, and I throw in a bottle of Subaru conditioner for kicks ($2 @ dealer).

[Duff]

You guys have been a great source of information and I want to express my appreciation of the help you all have given me.

Just had a half inch crack in the windshield fixed. You can hardly even see it. Thirty five dollars.

I should get that Haynes manual.

Thanks,

Duff

[Duff]

The new speedometer has 800 plus miles on it with no failures noted and no CEL appearances.

Also, the starter I had rebuilt by a Menonite shop is working like a champ, flawlessly. The guy showed me the worn contacts and plunger and explained how it works. Very interesting. I always thought the solenoids that are integrated with the starters are just piggy backed on the starter. This is not the case. The solenoid is an integral part of the starter and engages the starter gear into the flywheel, all as part of the electrification of the solenoid. By the time the contact is made and electricity flows accross the solenoid contacts the plunger has pushed the starter gear fully into the flywheel. Very well thought out process. The fact that it can be rebuilt inexpensively is also a great idea.

Duff