dealership troubles, legal smart people please help.

[SPR]

i need some help guys. my mom has a 2007 subaru wrx. 5spd. this is my moms car. she drives it like a grandma... it hasnt really ever been ripped on. her tranny started grinding so i took it to the dealer thinking they wouldnt try and screw me over as bad as a lady. they came back saying that since i drive it sometimes i must of been abusing it and they want to split the cost 50/50. there is no reason for this, subaru needs to pay for the whole thing, its not like this car has been getting raced and abused. ive had my battle with dealerships and warranty work over aftermarket parts. but i dont have anything to back this up when it comes to a 5spd tranny showing signs of abuse.

anyone got any brite ideas so i have a leg to stand on when i take this up with SOA?

[Reason]

It's an 07, shouldn't the drivetrain be under warranty??

[SPR]

thats what im getting at....

subaru should be covering this. but they arnt. they best they are wanting to do is split the cost 50/50. because they are claiming the tranny has been abused. its never been abused. they need to cover it. and i know there has to be a law or a catch or something to throw back at them.

[Jedi Taxi]

well, you technically can ask for money back for taking off the warranty. however, i dont know if this is the case. but what i do know is that what you can do is explain to the mechanic real slowely...DRIVES....LIKE....A....GRANDMA.

basically, its common knoweldge amongst engine designers that riding the lower RPMS 0-2k can actually damage the engine and drivetrain.

reason being (engine related) is that the oil pump isn't at optimal oil pressure yet for harsher driving. and to smash the gas while at 0-2000 RPMS specifically, can do damage anywhere from seizing lifters (not engine leathal, but huge loss of power) to drying up main bearings w/ destroyed piston rings.

As far as the transmission goes, its most likly the syncro mesh gears. frequent forgeting to push in the clutch and just forcing it from gear to gear is the easy way to destroying these. most likely, the dealer is just not wanting to cough up the truth.

[SPR]

the truth is the very last thing they are wanting to come up with. one of the gears actually broke. so it was grinding and making lots of noise. so of course looks like its been abused. but im like 99% positive they cant just say oh its been abused and deny it with out proof. theres got to be a law or a catch or something i can dig up to take into the SOA and get the work done for free. not this 50/50 bull crap.

[Reason]

Exactly, they can't look at you and say well if you drive it it must have been abused. I didn't know Subaru was in the psychic game now. For all they know you could be the greatest driver in the world. They are a dealership and should honor warranties and not try to assessed driving styles from someone they never seen drive before.

If you have to do a 50/50 split with them they must go for test drives and anyone who grinds gears and shit must sign some sort of documentation stating they suck at driving. If I were you I go back down tomorrow and make a huge deal out of it. Make sure other customers are around and throw around words like Lawyers and law suit and all that.

[SPR]

Exactly, they can't look at you and say well if you drive it it must have been abused. I didn't know Subaru was in the psychic game now. For all they know you could be the greatest driver in the world. They are a dealership and should honor warranties and not try to assessed driving styles from someone they never seen drive before.

If you have to do a 50/50 split with them they must go for test drives and anyone who grinds gears and shit must sign some sort of documentation stating they suck at driving. If I were you I go back down tomorrow and make a huge deal out of it. Make sure other customers are around and throw around words like Lawyers and law suit and all that.

word dont do jack shit. the reason im having problems is because so many young people go out and race their cars, break their trannys and want subaru to fix it. now heres an innocent mom, son trying to help her out and she is getting screwed. i need solid paper work. words dont do shit.

example. when i had my sti and was having warranty issues with my modifications they had to prove it was because of what i done. i told them that they basically laughed at me. when i showed up with a fat stack of paper work on the moss magnusson act they changed their attitude and fixed it. i need solid paper work to show im not an idiot. words arnt going to help. make a scene comes later, do it this soon and its not going to get u anywhere except in a fight with the cops.

[Bdubs]

I'm not sure how many dealers are around you because of your location. First thing I'd do is take it somewhere else, no questions asked.

[Reason]

First thing I would do is pull your warranty and see what it covers.

[SPR]

I'm not sure how many dealers are around you because of your location. First thing I'd do is take it somewhere else, no questions asked.

that doesnt exactly work like people thinks it does. every car is in the SOA database by vin number. if SOA puts a red flag on your car any dealership will see that when they pull your vin. so if this car has been flagged for abuse now. its not going to help to change dealers. dealers go threw SOA for all warranty work. they dont just do it them selves.

its a 2007 trust me the tranny is covered in warranty, but while its true if the car has been raced/tracked they can deny the coverage. they are assuming right now. dont have proof. i still need paper work. words dont help.

[ivwarrior]

Honestly, I don't think you're going to find any paperwork that says "it's my Mom's car, she knows how to drive and didn't abuse it, you need to fix it." This isn't the same situation you faced with your STi where they were claiming aftermarkets parts automatically voided the warranty.

Probably your best bet is going to be surfing forums (NASIOC, i-club, etc) searching for others with 07 WRX tranny problems. Try and show them a pattern of failures, especially if you're their first customer with an 07 and tranny problems. That, and trying to reason with them that it wasn't abused. Go above the dealer to the regional rep, then to SOA, if need be. Just don't skip over the regional rep's head without giving him/her a chance to make it right. Even if the dealer hasn't seen an 07 with similar problems, the regional rep may have.

[SilentRacer]

Tranny problems are common on WRXs. They are not built to handle the boost. The STIs on the other hand are. This seems to be the consensus from wrx owners in my local club.

[Wiscon_Mark]

Tranny problems are common on WRXs. They are not built to handle the boost. The STIs on the other hand are. This seems to be the consensus from wrx owners in my local club.

Saying that they "aren't built to handle the boost" is completely false. More tranny issues pop up than should simply because of abuse, but of course all cars won't have trouble free transmissions, and you're more likely to have problems if you have a high power car. There are just a few bad ones out there.

Anyways, I don't think SOA made this decision, I think the dealership did. I would try another dealership before writing that option off. If they give you the same crap, email an SOA rep, and tell them the straight up truth. Tell them how often you've driven it (I'm guessing not very often). There's no way occasional driving is going to lead to a broken gear because of abuse, IMO, unless you're really driving it hard, and then other signs should show up to point towards abuse as well (clutch, engine, tires, etc). Innocent until proven guilty. A broken gear doesn't necessarily mean abuse, and you need to stress that as much as possible.

[Sarra]

Call up SOA and complain. Or better yet, have your mum call and complain. If that doesn't work, contact the BBB? Other than that, I have no clue.

[Matt S.]

I'd start over.

Have YOUR MOM take it to the dealership and explain the problem. If they give her the same answer, have HER call 1-800-Subaru-3 and explain the problem to them. They are usually good about contacting the dealer and finding out what's what.


it hasnt really ever been ripped on.

So your Mom *ocasionally* likes to "rip" on it, does she?

Honestly, if you didn't beat on the car ever and it truly has a defect in the tranny, your Mom has a legitimate gripe I would pursue as far as I could.

However, if the problem was indeed caused by your Mom slamming through the gears in the occasional street race or just for fun, the dealer is doing her a favor by going 50/50 and I would take the deal and run.

Not implying anything, but people who damage their cars because of mods or driving like fools or whatever and then try to put the tab on SOA should burn.

Ever since the WRX, SOA is leary of tranny problems, especially a problem that occurs on such a new car like your Mom's, as well they should be.

Once bitten, twice shy.

[deadlydave]

Well, a freakin' gear broke, right?. If it's an '07, no matter how hard it's been beat, that should NOT happen.

Google Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. The act of US legislation states that the dealer must prove you broke it. I just read this in "Hacking and Modding Your Car for Dummies". Good book. You can at least walk into the dealer and scare them by asking if they have a copy of the magnuson-moss warranty act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act
"The federal minimum standards for full warranties are waived if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer, or by unreasonable use, including a failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance."

[Perdue]

Matt, please. SOA (dealers in particular, as mark pointed out) has been absolutely terrible at honoring warrenty work, especially on big ticket items, for as long as I've been in the game.

I've seen a local guy's 2.5RS, bone stock, blow a headgasket under warrenty. They tried to say that since he was young (lower 20s), he must have been driving it hard and cause a premature failure of the headgasket. This is from a motor that is known to blow headgaskets.

I saw another guy lose a 4EAT in his wife's new legacy at 10k. They again tried to place blame for abuse.

My best friend's WRX turbo lost it's turbo at under 20k miles and the tried to blame the turboback exhaust, saying it created more horsepower than the turbo could handle. Once again, since he was young, he MUST have driven the car hard and further caused premature wear. The turbo was blowing fluids into the exhaust...are you serious?

Everytime, SOA has been beaten. Tell them to show undeniable evidence that the car was abused or driven in a way that it shouldn't have been. Keep taking it up the ladder, don't be pushed around, and refuse to take no for an answer. Do not pay the 50% as then you've pretty much admitted guilt to being partially at fault.

[Sarra]

I brought a car in with bad syncros. I told them I had just purchased the car from a used car dealership. They fixed it, no questions asked.

[bakergtt]

What dealer did you take it too?

I took my xterra in to Gresham Nissan/Subaru because of a bad stearing pump. Never said anything to me, just took the car and fixed it and it was under warranty.

I know its not that same as a tranny but I see no reason why they wouldnt cover this. Does the ECU in the new cars record how the car has been driven? (top speed and rev, etc.) I would contact SOA, state your point and what the dealer is saying. Do it by email so you have a paper trail. If you go back to the dealer, start climbing the ladder, keep asking for someone higher up, tell you can get someone who will take care of it.

if this doesnt work contact Sean at Rallitek (who use to work for a Subaru Dealer) and have him back you up and say that they have looked at it and its not a failure due to miss use.

[Hocrest]

Go back in with your mom, have her explain to them that no it wasn't abused and she expects them to deal with the warranty of a bad part. If they give her flak, don't fight them, just ask who the regional rep is and that you would like to speak with them. If they don't want to give you this info, turn and walk out, call Subaru and tell them that you would like to speak with the regional rep about an issue, but the dealer wouldn't give you the information.

When I bought a SOA Reman trans for my SVX, it failed in about 2 weeks. When I explained the problem, I stated that "it wouldn't shift into 4th even if I accelerated up to 80mph". The service manager told me that the SVX wasn't designed to go that fast and the transmission may not be covered under warranty. I told her that I knew of three SOA reman trans's bought within the same week that all failed with the same problems. I wanted to speak with the regional rep, if there was going to be any warranty issues. I never heard another thing about the lack of warranty :roll:

fwiw, I would request that your trans gets rebuilt. If you get a reman you could get one that just got a few parts replaced and the rest have 100,000 miles on them...

[SPR]

wow a lot of post since ive been gone for 3 days lol.

okay so basically heres the deal. my mom drives this car like a grandma. but on the very slim occasion i drive it yeah i take the rpms up pretty high but i dont slam gears. dont grind them, nothing the car couldnt handle on a daily basis.

the problem is even if its a 07 all these idiots think oh yeah lets go to the track and start launching my car. everyone of them breaks their tranny. and takes it to suby to get it fixed for free. after seeing this happened on all their cars of course subaru is going to be iffy about fixing it and assume its abuse.

mean while im fightiing with SOA right now. so far this is what i have been told in my last phone call....

she read the warranty off to me and said that under abuse, poor maintnence, a collision or neglect my warranty can be denied. well being so new the only thing they have to stand on right now is abuse.

i asked her then what is abuse, and she told me theres to many ways to discribe abuse i cant tell you that. but in our previous experience this looks like abuse.

my come back was well i know how this car has been driven and its far from abuse. she told me my opinion of abuse doesnt mean it wasnt abused. so i said so your previous experiences mean it has been? and i forget the lined she said, but i told her well im calling my lawyer now, i will be calling you back shortly. and hung up.

so SOA is the ones being a dick about this, its not hte dealership, taking it to another dealer wont do me any good, SOA has the vin flagged.

the lady i have been talking too leaves the office today at 2. i plan on calling her at about 1 45 and keeping her on the phone for another hour past 2 HAHA. see if they have changed their attitude some after me talking with a lawyer.

while i still have not found paper work. i do know that they can not just assume abuse, they have to PROVE IT beyound doubt.

so in a way i think im getting somewhere, but really im still at the same spot we started. the 50/50 deal still stands. but im not giving up.


by the way i did take it to gresham nissan/suby. but for one, your not even close to being able to compare. for one its a nissan, totally different company even if they are located in teh same building. 2 its a suv, they dont have a very common problem of abuse. 2 i dont think theres really anything you could ever do to a steering pump to be blammed on you.

perdue, knows what he is talking about lol. if your driving anything with the name impreza in it, good freaking luck on getting warranty work done. so many kids beat these cars to a piss and ruining it for everyone. subaru is sick of it, not that i can blame them, but they need to take a different approach at it.

[Huffer]

Have you spoken to the Area Rep for Subaru?
SOA don't usually worry about the warranty work - it's the dealerships. Because warranty work doesn't result in them getting paid - because SOA have already determined the amount of hours/comp for each warranty repair.

SOA pay for it the repair, not the dealer.

Take it to the area rep, and have your mom do it.

[Matt S.]

Matt, please. SOA (dealers in particular, as mark pointed out) has been absolutely terrible at honoring warrenty work, especially on big ticket items, for as long as I've been in the game.

I've seen a local guy's 2.5RS, bone stock, blow a headgasket under warrenty. They tried to say that since he was young (lower 20s), he must have been driving it hard and cause a premature failure of the headgasket. This is from a motor that is known to blow headgaskets.

Obviously a bad call since 2.5's are known for Head gaskets.


I saw another guy lose a 4EAT in his wife's new legacy at 10k. They again tried to place blame for abuse.

From Subaru's point of view, NOT FROM AN ENTHUSIAST'S POINT OF VIEW ON A SUBARU FORUM, I would absolutely question why a 4EAT would go bad at 10,000 miles!!! Can it happen? Absolutely, it can happen. Does it? Obvisouly not which is why it should be questioned. Tear it apart and see if it was a mechanical failure somewhere or is everything burnt up from getting stuck somewhere and rocking back and forth for 10 minutes.

I find it hard to believe SOA would deny that claim instantly without even seeing inside the transmission.


My best friend's WRX turbo lost it's turbo at under 20k miles and the tried to blame the turboback exhaust, saying it created more horsepower than the turbo could handle. Once again, since he was young, he MUST have driven the car hard and further caused premature wear. The turbo was blowing fluids into the exhaust...are you serious?


Are you kidding me?! Look at it from SOA's point of view:

Here we have a customer with a WRX. He installed a turboback exhaust. Why? Why would he install a complete turboback exhaust? For looks? Probably not. For sound? I guess, but a muffler could have done that. Why would he spend $$$ on a full exhaust system? For better performance? Yes. Now, what is one way a full exhaust enables the car to have better performance? It decreases back pressure, specifically in the area of the turbocharger so the turbocharger is able to spin with less resistance which can make it spool up much faster then it previously did in stock configuration. Could that potentially cause premature wear of the turbocharger? Yes.

Now to the second part of the equation, again, from SOA's point of view:

Why would this customer want better performance? Better gas milage? Probably not. Not to ever use the added performance, but know it is there if he should need it in an emergency situation? Probably not. To make his car accelerate faster, especially in a race environment where added acceleration is of great benefit? Probably so.

Did the turboback cause the turbo to go bad. I doubt it seriously. But can YOU prove it didn't? Would the turbo have gone bad with the stock exhaust. Who knows, obviously it wasn't bad at the time the exhaust was installed or surely he would have seen oil or coolant or something inside the exhaust housing of the turbo, no?

This has been going on for as long as people have been hotrodding! If your car is under warranty and you mod it, you run the risk of of getting a claim denied should you have a problem! This is nothing new! Why in the world do you think guys wait to mod their cars until AFTER the warranty is up?

You guys can quote laws about warranty and you have to prove this or that or whatever. You don't think Subaru knows about these laws??!!? Hell, our Service rep is the one that told me about those laws 10 years ago.

SOA is a BUSINESS and must be run as such. This means questioning uncommon warranty problems and probably, if it is not completely obvious that a part failed under it's own will, denying a claim until the customer pursues it. Should they? We as customers would like to think not, but they are a business. Should a business get rid of some employees that worked for them for 30 years because they can hire kids out of school for a lot less money, no, but it happens every single day. It's business.

Now lets say SPR does make it to court. On one side, you have SOA, showing years of warranty claims of transmission problems on WRX's under 10,000 miles, and then their lawyers break it down even further and show that the vast majority of failed WRX transmissions under 10000 miles have happened due to modifications and/or driver abuse. Then SOA will present the court with how successful the WRX is in terms of a "weekend racer" with owners who auto-x, drag race, road race, even the ocasional TSD rally. They will show the popularity of the WRX with owners who enjoy "modifying" their cars and all the press it gets in magazines that encourage owners to modify their cars and drive in race environments. They will also state how many 07 WRX's with under 10,000 miles have had no transmission problems to date. And then they will present 100 hundred things, all to make SPR look bad.

Then the lawyers will paint themselves nice and say that even though they suspect abuse, SOA went above and beyond and offered to cover 50% of the repair bill and the owner denied their offer.

Then we have SPR's side, who is a member of at least one Subaru enthusiast web site that has sub-forums of how to modify every area of your Subaru, has gone on record here and said he has " battled with dealerships and warranty work over aftermarket parts before", so he already has a negative history. Then he will go on to tell them that he has gone on to say, "yeah, I take the rpms up pretty high". Whether he does it once or year or not means nothing, the SOA's lawyers would love to hear that statement. Courtrooms want proof. Prove that SPR wasn't street racing every time he borrowed his Mom's car?

Good luck!

The bad thing is SPR's spirited driving probably had nothing to do with the transmission, but if the dealership/SOA have reason to believe it did, be it because of what he already told them, past history with him, whatever, be prepared.



I've been a Subaru owner, customer, employee, enthusiast, etc for many many years and I have seen/experienced things like this more then a few times, not just from an owner's point of view.

Will SOA let it go that far? I doubt it. They are too busy battling bigger problems like explaining to the NHTSA why 1000+ Tribecas still have open recalls because they were shipped out of the country to countries that have no Subaru dealerships, much less parts for Tribeca's to complete the rrecall.I would say they would probably eventually give in and cover his repairs. But for every one that they have to pay, there or 100 that the owner took the 50% and life goes on. That is hardly being "beaten" as you say, that's just business.


Good luck SPR.

[llaprad1]

Wow, the motives of car dealerships and manufacturers is a little more complex than 'it's a business.'

Do you want to make short term or long term profit? Do you want a single-use or repeat-purchase consumer? Do you value grassroots or global branding? Do you interject your own morality into the transaction or use absolute deduction in your strategies?

I think SOA knew very well what demographic is was being introduced to, and it decided on the minimalist approach to customer service.

I think its absolutely wrong for a business to make a broad-stroke assumption of a customer based on the actions of other customers, with no investigational proof whatsoever. Unfortunately, based on my personal experience with SOA, you have to have will and patience and be adamant about your claim.

My wife's 05 OBXT took 8 months to finally be righted by SOA. No money came out of our pockets. They even wanted to charge us $300 for a "carb cleaning." They eventually replaced intake and exhaust valves.

Sure, you can call that a business. But it sure as Hell ain't a good business.

(We just traded it in on an Element...my wife couldn't tolerate/handle the bad customer service anymore. I still have my 98 LGT and no one touches it but me.)

[SPR]

if you think img goint to go to court and tell them ive drove it and harder than my mom ever has your crazy lol.

and my issues with after market parts are with my sti, not this wrx. they cant deny one car because i modded another. i may be a tuner, but its the fact that this car is bone stock. shows no signs of early wear or racing such as maybe bald tires or cracked edges from cornering to hard. car has 16k miles because my mom uses it for work, she drives close to 80 miles a day at least. part of it is some huge hills. which can put stress on the tranny. possibly causing it to break =].

in the mean time. hopfully good news on monday.

[Matt S.]

Hey man, I'm rooting for you. Don't take me the wrong way. I believe I said much earlier that you have a legitimate problem and I would pursue it as far as you could.

But facts are facts and I'm trying to show the other side of story for all those who say show them this law or that law, make them prove this or that. IT IS NOT THAT EASY. And just be aware of what you are saying when talking to an SOA rep. They recorded all calls in the past, not sure if they still do.

You are an enthusiast/tuner with past issues with your own car concerning warranty/aftermarket parts. No, they can not void a warranty to different car simply because of this, but it difinitely could give them reason to believe there was foul play with a tranny failure with so many little miles on it, regardless. And their doubt is why you, or rather , your Mom is in the position she is in.

And , just out of curiousity, if they asked you if you ever drove the car hard or took the rpms up high, you would lie under oath, even while stating you did so on a public forum?

Better you then me.

Again, good luck. I hope everything is taken care of for you as it probably should be.

[Wiscon_Mark]

Taking the RPMs up high is not abuse, nor should it ever be considered abuse. I see no reason to lie about it. If the car isn't designed to go up to 7k, then why is redline there?

Now, taking the rpms up high on 15,000 miles on the oil change, and doing so constantly might be considered abuse of the engine. But if you're operating the car with good matinence, and within stock parameters, I see no reason for a court of law to hold it against you.

However, I wouldn't use the hills argument, unless you broke 5th gear or something.

[SPR]

well i dont see why they would be asking me if i ever drove the card hard. they have no reason too. its not my car. they most they would ask me is if it was ever abused. and i would simply say no. shifting at 5k isnt abuse by any means.

and this dealership has no idea who i am, this is a different dealer than i took my sti too. i didnt even want to go back to them with the troubles they gave me..

[racinraders]

The dealer will get paid no matter what,It will be payed from SOA if its a warrenty item.
Did they say what was broken ? was it a gear for sure ,clutch or something else.

[SPR]

The dealer will get paid no matter what,It will be payed from SOA if its a warrenty item.
Did they say what was broken ? was it a gear for sure ,clutch or something else.

they dont like doing warranty work because it doesnt pay near as well as getting paid by the customer.

and i havnt got the fax yet of the broken parts list. soon to come hopfully.

[llaprad1]

Keep us posted...

[SPR]

HAHA. okay got the broken parts list....

5 teeth off 2nd gear are gone. 3 of final gear are gone. this sucks.

still fighting....

[blueb3]

Sad to say, but I believe if your mom had taken the car in the first time, it would have been done by now. UNfortunately dealership's see young kid and automatically believe that they abuse anything with an engine.

I know it's been said before, but take it up the ladder, and don't back down. Once one person starts stalling you, get their boss, and keep pushing. Just keep a cool, level head and hopefully it will be all over with soon.