EJ25 to EJ257

[Svenerachi1]

Alright, so I've got a 1999 Legacy 2.5 GT auto and want to do a full swap for an STI motor.

Questions:
1) What year is considered to be the strongest, not for maximum horsepower, but in being absolutely bullet-proof, i want to build it up to be a 400,000 mile car, not a 4 second 0-60, tho i wouldn't mind the ABILITY to go 0-60 in 4 seconds with a simple nitrous kit :twisted:

2) could my 4EAT handle upwards of 300 HP?

3) What else do i need beyond the engine, LSD, turbo, intercooler and piping, new exhaust/intake, etc.

[Tris_STi]

Alright, so I've got a 1999 Legacy 2.5 GT auto and want to do a full swap for an STI motor.

Questions:
1) What year is considered to be the strongest, not for maximum horsepower, but in being absolutely bullet-proof, i want to build it up to be a 400,000 mile car, not a 4 second 0-60, tho i wouldn't mind the ABILITY to go 0-60 in 4 seconds with a simple nitrous kit :twisted:

2) could my 4EAT handle upwards of 300 HP?

3) What else do i need beyond the engine, LSD, turbo, intercooler and piping, new exhaust/intake, etc.

EJ257 is a DOHC turbo closed-deck block. First off, in order to do a complete STi swap, you'll have to do the wiring, and because the STi is a drive-by-wire system, you'll either have to wire it yourself, or send the headache to a shop, where you should be prepared to drop some cash.

no, your 4eat WILL NOT handle upwards of 300hp. EDIT: It can't even really handle stock power if you really drive it, so I'd not even worry about an STi motor until you get a 5sp in there. :roll:
Oh, and turbo and nitrous don't mix for a street car.

The EJ257 does not have 300hp without mods. Mods to that level will affect driveability, and reliability. Cheap, Fast, Reliable, pick two.

An LSD is optional, but a very fun option. Turbo is of course, a given, considering its an STi swap. You'll want to have at least a 3" tbe. An intake mod would be appropriate, considering you're doing a swap, and probably not buying the STi intake portions ala OEM.

Good luck, newwb. :wink:

Oh, and in RE: question numero uno:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

In the eeeeeeennnnnddddd: Buy a civic.

[gator gt]

The 22B block, EJ22T is the strong one. It is also found in the 91-94 Legacy Turbos here in the states. Its the one that Austrailians are famous for taking to the limits. (and the rest of the world after learning what the Aussies did)

The EJ257 will get you Torque City, but in this age of rising gas prices....you'll want to go no larger than a 2.2 or the 2.0 turbo. As it is, you'll be scoffing up gallons of premium if you're always boosting. That EJ257 is a freakin' gas hog in the world of Subaru.

Some say the JDM Ver7 STi motor is the best out there, but the forged pistons score the cylinder walls and things get loose. BUT, forged pistons will NOT let you down and will withstand almost anything.

I think Nitrous is a nice party favor, but not the smartest thing to do to a street car. Period. My opinion: keep it in the surgical wing at the hospital and the movies. You wanna talk about cheating...thats it. Plus, too much (number of times doing it and amount injected) and it'll rip your engine apart.

As far as overall package, word is that the JDM Ver8 STi is the package to go for. Hard to come by though. They are in high demand. Trust me, I know.

BUT, and that but couldn't be big enough, you must have the best tune possible on that Ver8 ECU due to the hypercast pistons. They are a tad weaker than forged (if not as strong) pistons, but if detonation or knock is present in that engine, say good bye! Those pistons are toast. And there are few out there who can safetly tune a JDM Ver8 ECU. Kingpin in AZ is one of them. Aren't familiar with any others right now, but I think there are 1 or 2.

Your 4EAT may handle more power, if it was rebuilt correctly. I know there are Power Stages for 4EATs but I'm not sure of them as I don't care much for autos. I thought about rebuilding my RS/GT unit to handle the power, but decided to go 6MT in the end. They are rumored to handle at least 500hp. I know there are peeps out there doing more. But thats their risk. I doubt rebuilt to handle 300hp though.

Answer to #3:
complete motor (to include turbo, intercooler, engine harness, coil packs, intake manifold, all vacuum hoses, turbo inlet tube, coolant lines, power steering pump, alternator)

ecu

wiring from USDM 02-05 WRX (bulkhead, front at minimum)

turbo crossmember (from WRX or Legacy Turbo, latter fits better with your current front control arms)

WRX airbox (unless going after market intake)

fuel pump controller

boost control solenoid

possible emissions equipment to handle the stuff your 99 may not have that the new ECU will look for

wiring diagrams of your car and the car that the motor came out of (whether you do the swap or pay someone to do it, they'll be needed!)

power steering resevoir (which is remote and located next to the ABS hydraulic unit and in front of the airbox) and lines from a WRX

turbo front sway (yes, its different than the N/A sway)

....there may be more, but its late.



And if you keep your 4EAT initially, the wiring is going to be a nightmare, unless you get the motor and ECU from a 4EAT WRX. May still be a nightmare.

Fine, change trannys and make it easy, you say? Yeah, there is a list of more things you need to change trannys. And the list varies slightly depending on which tranny you choose:

WRX (pull style clutch)
RS/GT (push style clutch)

rear differential to match front diff in tranny (if LSD rear, you need the specific rear half shafts to correspond to the rear diff as LSD half shafts vary at the splines than non-LSD diffs/axles)

hydraulic clutch system (components are dependant on tranny you choose) slave cylinder, firewall mounted master cylinder and hose

driveshaft (depending on which tranny you choose; if 5MT, you need one from a 5MT Legacy....if 6MT, you can use your 4EAT driveshaft)

tranny crossmember

shift linkage

proper interior trim panel

pedal box (take your brake pedal out and get one from a BD/BG 5MT or 97-02 Impreza 2.5RS 5MT that has the brake and clutch)



and this doesn't include incidentals and mods you may want to upgrade to, like engine mounts, tranny mounts, steering rack bushings, ALKs, hardened bushings of any sort, upgrading radiator, turbo, intercooler, etc.

Then you have to look at upgrading your suspension and brakes to have the chassis to handle that amount of power.

.....sound like a lot...it is. to do it right isn't going to be cheap.

You can do just the power route.....but your car is going to handle like ASS on the road and it'll be a lot easier to lose control of it when you start to apply it.

Not trying to discourage, but too many folks look into this with big HP's floating around in their head. i like to give it straight.

Any other questions?

GGT

[Svenerachi1]

Yeah, anybody want to buy a 99 Legacy 2.5 GT 4EAT white, 107,420 miles, leather interior, i'll throw in the Sony Mobile ES, best model, i think its CDA-9860,i'll check on that.. Sony Mobile ES 1000X1 amp, Solo-Baric 12 in custom sealed (to spec) box, Alpine 50X4, Boston Accousic components w/ tweeters.

NICE sounding. K&N Filter is only performance mod i've done, never even got around to getting the snorkus out as i don't trust car jacks (bad experience) and don't have the spare change for a concrete block at home depot.

j/k, i'd never sell my baby.... but damn, i guess they call it a Dream Car because its exactly that. A f***in Dream.

Oh, and BTW, that was a mistake before in my last post, i was wondering if my transmission could handle 200whp. small keyboard and red eyes make for bad posts.

I'm going to start a thread in the transmission thread as i've got alot more questions that have nothing to do with Swaps

[gator gt]

sorry to crush those dreams man. :(

GGT

[Pwise2326]

Unfortunately swaps on Subaru's are a nightmare, and extremely costly. Like everyone else said, its a big headache, and the wiring is one of the main causes in dropping in a turbo engine. The EJ257 is a semi-closed deck, which is compatible with WRX heads, not regular EJ25 or Ej22's which are open decks IIRC. To cure the drive-by-wire headache you can get a TB from a WRX with cables and use that instead, muuuuch easier to do than wire that pedal setup in.

The Version 7 STI engine that GGT was talking about was a great engine if you swapped the intake manifold for a Ver. 8 manifold, the Ver. 7's had an air flow issue to one cylinder (forget the number off hand), but most owners/tuners fixed this by swapping in the 8's. The Ver. 8 and new Ver. 9 with the twinscroll turbo is the most sought after thing right now. Depending how you look at it as fortunately or unfortunately seeing how gas prices are, the JDM STI engines all come in 2.0, yet produce similar/more power than the USDM EJ257. The 257 is still such a new block that it's "bulletproofness" hasn't been tried and trued like the EJ22T found in the 22b and USDM BC Legacy turbos. Unfortunately the EJ22T's are more expensive unless you are lucky enough to find a wrecked oldschool Leg turbo, but the big issue there is that engine is OBD-I, chances are your car is OBD-II, so you'd have quite the wiring nightmare as well in downgrading your car's diagnostics.

And PLEEEASE don't try a bolt on turbo kit...you'll spend WAAAAY too much money for such a small amount of gain...most kits recommend you only push 7-9psi because any higher will destroy your stock internals which were not designed for forced induction. If you want to build an N/A beast you can get an EJ257 with STI heads or WRX heads and hook it up, run crazy compression, just make sure you get a piggyback/standalone ecu or some kind of Air/Fuel controller to make it work.

There's a lot of options, but you need to save some serious coin to persue them. Good luck with whatever route you choose to follow, we're all here to help and try to point you in the right direction and lead you to those that have been down certain path's to give you advice and the famous "I wish I did this instead..." to save you some headaches.

One final note, stay away from nitrous, there's no need for it, so let the civic kids buy the crap up and wreck their cars, if you are going to invest a lot of money into your car, I would think you'd want to keep it in good shape for at least a little while!

[Kraziken]

sorry to crush those dreams man. :(

GGT

Hey, If your serious about a USDM STI......don't give up on those dreams.

I'll be posting pics in a few weeks. About my 2004 STI Ej257 swap.

Did I ever think I would do this? No.
Is this crazy and a waste of money. Probably yes.

I love my GT, after getting the handling and braking upgraded, I needed more power.

I bought a 2004 EJ20 WRX motor originally, but after test driving the WRX motor in my bro's Saab 92-x, it just wasn't enough. After he put down another couple grand, his car is now pretty fast.

I figure, the difference is I pay up front for the power, or pay later and do upgrades. I decided on the second option so I could get the larger block motor.

I'm crazy w/ anticipation, but it is probably 2 to 4 weeks away from being completed.

I guess this is a good place to ask. Will I be the first person to do a USDM STI swap? I've seen a few JDM STI and some US wrx conversions with different stage upgrades (my mechanic doing my swap work has a stage 4 ej20).

The fellow with the Forrester before me, not only got the USDM STi swap, but got the full 6 speed tranny w/ DCCD, and STI Brembo's :shock:

That was too much coin for me, at least for now. :D

[Wiscon_Mark]

Gator is also doing an EJ257 swap, I believe...

[Huffer]

Are you guys SERIOUS??? It is NOT that difficult to do full swaps into the cars - the only issue is when you try to mate different drivetrains to engines etc.

A lot of people will tell you that RA gearsets are the best - but RA gearsets were designed for specific RALLY applications. Very few times during a rally will you see RA's launching at 6k...

My point is that what you do depends on your application.

It's not a big issue to take a USDM EJ20T and mate it to your existing car, and still have OBD-II functions.

There are plenty of places who will do full swaps for you - GarageTuning on the West Coast, Rallispec on the East, etc.

Don't believe the hype - it can be done, and it might only cost you around $6-7k in parts and labor, depending on what you specify in your build.

Personally - I think it is better to swap in a full drivetrain /powerplant/harness from a stock boosted car. That way you maintain reliability and don't have to worry about some kind of hybrid bastard combination detonating on you.

As for fuel economy - a number of people who are getting ECutek type flashes are reporting improved economy...

[gator gt]

Gator is also doing an EJ257 swap, I believe...

Believe otherwise my friend --> EJ20......

GGT

[Wiscon_Mark]

whoops. When I head xxx hp from your PM, I thought you were going the EJ257 route....oh well.

[scottzg]

the ej22t we have is not the 22b block. Ours has the phase 1 crank bearings oil squirters, and different pistons.

RA is 'record attempt,' not rally. Not sure what difference it makes though, the gearset is shot peened or whatever it is, the benefit remains. Drag launches are stupid.

You can use turbo heads on a NA block, but you wont have the taps for the oil for the turbo, and the head gasket selection might take some figuring.

You can run an obd1 engine on obd2 engine controls without any modifications, so long as you use the obd2 sensors.

Word on the street is that the stock AT can handle more power than a stock 5mt, turbo or otherwise. A turbo AT SHOULD bolt up and run off your tcu, the turbo AT's have more clutch packs and can hold more power. Tranny coolers roxorz.

personally, if i was swapping an engine in to a 95+ legacy, i would immediately go to aftermarket efi. The 95+ NA cars have a completely different wiring harness than the earlier and turbo cars. Not to mention that you can score better mpg and power.


This whole post came completely out of my ass, so it's likely to have a ton of errors in it.