emanage blue on Legacy, it works

[SammyDaFish]

So I got this working. I saw a bunch of threads about this on various boards and don't think I saw a single post of someone that had it working on a Legacy. Anyway, it works. My 95 wagon is now running off an emanage blue. The rotary dials needed to be set to 3- 6 - 1 (I'll double check this since I tried a few settings before it worked).

No tuning done yet, I might need to fix something on my wideband, the wideband output I'm logging on the emanage seems to be noisy and my narrowband I'm sending to the stock ecu must be too since I've thrown a code twice in the last few days. That's all due to the wideband though (PLX R-500, don't buy anything from PLX, this thing is a piece of junk).

Anyway, with this thing in I just need to finish welding up my fuel rails and build some IC pipes, this car might actually come together kinda soon. :grin:

[2.5GT]

what is this you speak of? :-?

[Reason]

Thats good to know, I was think of getting eManage blue or ultimate. I will have to make a note of your settings. thanks :grin:

[Jedi Taxi]

:smile: Nifftiness!

[rougeben83]

Is your 95 OBD II? Keep us updated on how that works out. I was going to use the Ultimate for my turbokit but I found out the MAP-based RS guys were having ECU learn-around problems with their Ultimates...they could only tune for open loop, not closed loop (i.e. WOT only).

[SammyDaFish]

Is your 95 OBD II? Keep us updated on how that works out. I was going to use the Ultimate for my turbokit but I found out the MAP-based RS guys were having ECU learn-around problems with their Ultimates...they could only tune for open loop, not closed loop (i.e. WOT only).

yeah, the 95 is OBDII ... any piggyback is tuned for open loop only. The cool thing with the emanage is it will alow you to change injectors or AFM and it will recalibrate the signals during closed loop so the car runs like stock.

The only way to change the closed loop tune is to change the original programing (re-flash or chip) or get a standalone. you could also change the o2 sensor input (the perfect power can do this) and that would effect closed loop operation. other than that piggy backs, including highly advanced ones like the emanage and emanage ultimate, are only used to tune open loop.

[rougeben83]

Is your 95 OBD II? Keep us updated on how that works out. I was going to use the Ultimate for my turbokit but I found out the MAP-based RS guys were having ECU learn-around problems with their Ultimates...they could only tune for open loop, not closed loop (i.e. WOT only).

yeah, the 95 is OBDII ... any piggyback is tuned for open loop only. The cool thing with the emanage is it will alow you to change injectors or AFM and it will recalibrate the signals during closed loop so the car runs like stock.

The only way to change the closed loop tune is to change the original programing (re-flash or chip) or get a standalone. you could also change the o2 sensor input (the perfect power can do this) and that would effect closed loop operation. other than that piggy backs, including highly advanced ones like the emanage and emanage ultimate, are only used to tune open loop.

Well that's what I mean. If you are going to be running different injectors (which I and pretty much anyone turbo kitting the car would have to), you'd lose some of the driveability advantage the piggyback offers over a standalone or even an RRFR w/ knock sensor...

[SammyDaFish]

I guess I'm not really sure what you're getting at. The emanage lets you retain stock driveability with different injectors or maf because it alows the stock ECU to retain stock closed loop functionality with the new parts. When you hit open loop, the tunning is all up to you with the maps you program.

[89bk]

Is your 95 OBD II? Keep us updated on how that works out. I was going to use the Ultimate for my turbokit but I found out the MAP-based RS guys were having ECU learn-around problems with their Ultimates...they could only tune for open loop, not closed loop (i.e. WOT only).

yeah, the 95 is OBDII ... any piggyback is tuned for open loop only. The cool thing with the emanage is it will alow you to change injectors or AFM and it will recalibrate the signals during closed loop so the car runs like stock.

The only way to change the closed loop tune is to change the original programing (re-flash or chip) or get a standalone. you could also change the o2 sensor input (the perfect power can do this) and that would effect closed loop operation. other than that piggy backs, including highly advanced ones like the emanage and emanage ultimate, are only used to tune open loop.

I am newer than a newbie at EM so please excuse my questions or posts if they seem ridiculous. But, I'd like to learn for you guys . . .

1--If a standalone can only tune the open loop (WOT only?) what advantage would the E-manage Ultimate have over the Blue? (I didn't know standalones only affect the open loop till now.)

2--So, does the E-manage work better with MAF systems than the MAP systems? (As a side, on another Board someone posted that '95s were OBDI and '96 on were OBD II. I learn something everyday.)

3--Since my car runs way less than desirable in all rpm ranges below WOT, I'd like to tune those ranges too. Is the PP6 the least expensive, trouble-free, easy-so-use system or would other systems be better?

[SammyDaFish]

1--If a standalone can only tune the open loop (WOT only?) what advantage would the E-manage Ultimate have over the Blue? (I didn't know standalones only affect the open loop till now.)
All versions of the emanage (blue/gold/ultimate) are piggy backs. A standalone can tune under any conditions, because you no longer use the factory ECU. That's why it's called a standalone :)


2--So, does the E-manage work better with MAF systems than the MAP systems?
The emanage works similar with both systems. The difference is more how the air is metered (mass air -vs- speed density). The emanage can tune in a few different ways. Primarily it modifies an input signal that the ECU uses to meter air and therefore calculate fuel. This is similar to any piggyback. The information the stock ECU gets from the signal varies upon the metering system type, so the effects are different.

The emanage is unique though due to the fact that it can be used to tune without modifying a signal (such as MAF). This is because with the injector harness the emanage can control the injectors directly. This results in 100% stock operation outside of the injector map.


(As a side, on another Board someone posted that '95s were OBDI and '96 on were OBD II. I learn something everyday.) Federal law required all cars in the 96 model year sold in the US to use the ODBII system for emissions. Some manufacturers implemented OBDII a little early, but all cars are OBDII in 96.


3--Since my car runs way less than desirable in all rpm ranges below WOT, I'd like to tune those ranges too. Is the PP6 the least expensive, trouble-free, easy-so-use system or would other systems be better?
You will not be able to change the closed loop tune of your car with a piggyback. The Concept of closed loop is that the ECU constantly adjusts operating parameters in order to meet an ideal AF ratio, which is usually 14.7 (the stoichiometric point of gasoline). If your car runs poorly, then it is in bad tune (from a stock point of view), there is something broken. You'll want to fix that before modifying anything.



Hope all that helps :)

[rougeben83]

Right, I'm looking at it from a forced induction point of view, not tuning a relatively stock N/A subby motor.

The closed loop tuning would help with things like gas mileage, variances in gasoline (even if theyre the same octane), etc. Of course for F/I, you can just get the biggest fuel pump and biggest injectors you can find so you're running rich all the time and have that margin of safety while at partial throttle, and have the tune stick during open loop...but I don't plan to be at WOT all the time.

Others that have emanage with their turbo do that (constantly running rich) or just tune it and reset the car when it learns around the closed loop tune (and subsequently upload the tune again). Just too much trouble for what it is...

89bk a standalone tunes everything, so you don't have to deal with the closed loop/open loop ECU business, at it does all of that by itself, and have extra features as well (like launch control, digital gauge connections, etc.) but they're $$. Emanage (both types) are piggyback systems.

The big difference between the Blue and Ultimates are just the number of functions that are available when you first get the unit. The blue just needs the extra Greddy harness for whatever function you want to add-on to it.

PP6 is about as "easy" as the Emanage...as in it depends on what tune is loaded into it. I know Rallitek is a big proprietor of the system...they seem to be the only one that does it. The best way to get the most out of whatever piggyback you want to use is to find out what your local tuner supports or has most experience tuning with.

[SammyDaFish]

Right, I'm looking at it from a forced induction point of view, not tuning a relatively stock N/A subby motor.

The closed loop tuning would help with things like gas mileage, variances in gasoline (even if theyre the same octane), etc. Of course for F/I, you can just get the biggest fuel pump and biggest injectors you can find so you're running rich all the time and have that margin of safety while at partial throttle, and have the tune stick during open loop...but I don't plan to be at WOT all the time.


When in closed loop, it doesn't matter if you've turboed your NA engine, the ECU still reads the air entering the engine and attempts to get to it's target A/F. As long as you're operation within the measurement capability of the factory system all will be fine and for most setups, you won't exceed the limits of the factory system while at part throttle. One possible issue you could run into while boosting on an NA ECU is detonation due to charge air heat while at part throttle. If this is the case, advanced piggybacks like the emanage can pull timing without effecting other closed loop operations. This is one thing that makes the emanage better than something like an S-AFC. Even still, unless your turbo is incredibly inefficient, or miss sized and you're running on the surge line, the factory NA timing usually isn't aggressive enough to cause a detonation problem at part throttle.

[sharky nrk]

just an fyi, most of the main points have been discussed already, I would recommend getting the injectors flow tested if you are going to be using any piggyback mass adjustment for closed loop injector control - the variance in claimed injector flow rates can be astounding - also fuel pressure will effect flow rates so make sure you take that into account

nice to see there are some decent options for older ecus