A couple suspension questions

[jg09]

Okay, so just about everyone here knows that an Outback is basically a Legacy with a 2.5" lift. My question is: what (besides springs/struts) is different in the suspensions of the two cars? Will I need to replace more than just the struts to convert it to Legacy suspension?

Secondly, I'm looking for a good set of coilovers that will put my Outback as close to the ground as possible and give me the best possible handling. I still need to be able to fit 235/40/18 tires into the fenderwells, though. I'd also like to not break the bank with the purchase. Any ideas?

[Airgne]

well other than your struts, springs, and sway bars. there isnt much diff. there are many diff options, you dont really need coilovers. 235/40/18 is a huge ass tire for our gutless engine to move. our cars are slow as it is. soon i will have my gt sus off and you can give me 50 bucks for all 4 corners and there your. that would lower your car alot. the stock gt sus is pretty good for being factory.

if you want coilovers you can go with(cheapest to most) megans, tein, jic, and dms coilovers. all of these are made for our car.

[rougeben83]

outbacks have spacers in the frame that adds 1" to the lift. Without taking those out you'll never really get back to the same ride height as a legacy

[Airgne]

wow i didnt know that. so really they are 3.5in heighter, is that for the gt or L model. i think the gt is lower

[rougeben83]

wow i didnt know that. so really they are 3.5in heighter, is that for the gt or L model. i think the gt is lower

L and GT have the same ride height, the GT has side-sills that give it a lower look.

The struts and springs add 1.5", the other 1" is by the spacers.

[Huffer]

My question is: what (besides springs/struts) is different in the suspensions of the two cars? Will I need to replace more than just the struts to convert it to Legacy suspension?

To summarise:
There are body spacers that raise the body of the car 1" higher.
If you remove these spacers, you will need an alignment immediately because they change the geometry of the control arms.

[jg09]

So where exactly are these spacers located? If I remove them, will I need any new, shorter hardware (i.e. bolts)? It seems like an easy way to get 1" of drop. And Airgne, I might have to take you up on that offer, especially since I live so damn close to Oak Harbor (Everson, here).

[Huffer]

If you do go lower, your struts need to be switched out, otherwise they will be continuously compressed, and never travel their full distance. All struts experience this to some degree, but they probably never sit compressed by a further 1" again.

The body spacers will be where your suspension arms attach to the body of the car. Get under there!

[jg09]

I'll check out the spacers tonight, then. Right now, my Outback is sitting in my friend's shop with the front struts out of it. Only problem: He doesn't have the key to their big locked box that all the metric wrenches are in, his dad does (who is at work).

[jg09]

Dammit! I'm frustrated!

What do these spacers look like? I found something that could be it on the front. It's basically 1x2" square tubing that's in between the crossmember that the front control arms are mounted on and the frame. Are these them? If so, what do I have to do to take them out?

As for the rear bushing/mount for the front control arms (it's below the front footwells), they seem to have no spacer what so ever. Will they require modification without the spacers? The crossmember that the control arms are bolted into seem to be one piece with the engine crossmember. Is there a spacer under the engine, too?

As for the bumper mounting brackets (I believe that's what they are, they're bolted to the frame and seem to connect to the front bumper), will they need to be removed? Secondly, where the hell are the rear spacers? I found things that look like little hockey pucks with a flange around the bottom side. Are these them?

If you guys need pics of what I'm talking about, I can take some tomorrow. I'll admit, this job was a little more than I thought it would be and I had way less than I expected as far as tools go here at my friend's house. Oh, and I found out that a new alignment job will be necessary ASAP. The inside edges of my front tires are perfectly smooth.

[jg09]

Am I to assume that nobody knows?

[gryffinwings]

I've actually heard about this myself, but I've been wondering about these myself. I'm kind lost on what is meant where the suspension arms attache to the body, actually that doesn't make much sense to have it there at all. The only thing that makes sense to me on the Outback versus Legacy suspension is that the Outback struts and shocks are taller when compared to the Legacy Struts and Shocks.

@JG09: The problem with the BE/BH chassis is that it does not have that many options for struts and shocks, the only ones I know of, and correct me if I'm wrong are
KYB GR-2 (no AGXs)
OE Bilsteins
Bilstein HDs
STi (Japanparts.com)

Springs selection isn't that great either, which includes:
H&R Springs
Whiteline
STi pinks (japanparts.com)
Syms (japanparts.com)

Again correct me if I'm wrong, I just haven't been able to find anything. After that come in Coilovers the only ones I've seen, and I've checked a lot of them, these are the only coilovers that I've seen made for the BE/BH chassis

D2
Ksport
BC Racing
Buddy Club
Tein
Cusco
Silkroad
Vacanza (japanparts.com)
Gialla (japanparts.com)
Liberal (japanparts.com)
Zero Sports (japanparts.com)

Well that's all I could find when I was searching, some of these have to be imported, which can be a pain, rebuilding, yeah, not a chance. I wish there were more options for the BE/BH chassis. BTW has anyone seen anymore options than what I've listed for for springs, dampers, and coilovers?

[rougeben83]

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/

see 24 and 25

Megan also makes coilovers, they're for the baja. You can use them directly for the outback if you're so inclined to go that route.

[sybir]

FYI, the spacers do not raise the body of the car. They correct for camber angle with a suspension lift.
Think of it this way. Let's say, arbitrary number, your front struts, from top hat to knuckle, are 14 inches long at ride height on a stock OB. Let's say it's 12 inches on a stock GT. The upper mounting point (the strut tower) is the same on both cars. With a given strut length, both knuckles will be in the the exact same regardless of the car" 12 inches is 12 inches. Put a12 inch strut on an OB that normally has a 14" strut (again, arbitrary numbers) and your OB is now 2" lower. The subframe spacers lower the mounting point of the lower control arms or lateral links so that the suspension lift does not result in positive camber, and keeps the geometry correct with a longer strut/spring. The spacers do not lift the car, they merely correct the suspension geometry at the higher ride height.

This means, when you lower the car with a short er suspension, like GT stuff, or coilovers, or whatever, your lower suspension mounting points are just lower than they would be on a non-OB. This is not optimal because if your car is very low, your control arms and lateral links will be above horizontal, which puts you int he part of the camber curve that camber decreases under compression, which is the opposite of what you want - it's a limitation of strut-based cars.

Also, I have no idea what they did on the rear of the multi-link cars in terms of spacers. Based on what I've seen of the rear suspension on GT's we've worked on, I believe the only difference is the upper bumpstop, which is taller on the OB, and may need to be replaced or modified when you go lower to retain travel. Ben's doc backs that up, that's the only part specific to OB's besides the shocks and springs.

Regardless, the spacers have nothing to do with body lift, they just correct suspension geometry and drop the drivetrain of the car so the driveline angles aren't as extreme. The only time a spacer like this will raise a car is when the suspension mounts tot he frame of the car and not the unibody; you basically lift the body up over the static suspension. This can't be done with a unibody car as the upper mounting points are a prt of the body itself.

[gryffinwings]

So what would I need to correct this? is this attached to the lower control arm itself?

[sybir]

I haven't done it because of all the parts involved; you're looking at subframe, motor mounts, upper and lower, tranny mounts, possibly a driveshaft, new bolts all the way around that you'd need to get form Subaru, etc etc etc.

Supoptimal doesn't mean it's complete shit, it's just a limitation of starting with an OB unless you've got another donor car for all the subframe/driveline bits.

My car handles fine and I've been rolling a lowered OB for longer than all but a few old-school Legacy guys.....I've got 260k on the car with no issues. A little bumpsteer, but nothing I can't live with. Reengineering your car suspension is not something to take on without knowing what you're getting into, both in terms of the specific car and with suspension geometry and design in general, and, no offense intended, if you don't already know what you're trying to change, you're better off leaving it alone.

[rougeben83]

I haven't done it because of all the parts involved; you're looking at subframe, motor mounts, upper and lower, tranny mounts, possibly a driveshaft, new bolts all the way around that you'd need to get form Subaru, etc etc etc.

Supoptimal doesn't mean it's complete shit, it's just a limitation of starting with an OB unless you've got another donor car for all the subframe/driveline bits.

My car handles fine and I've been rolling a lowered OB for longer than all but a few old-school Legacy guys.....I've got 260k on the car with no issues. A little bumpsteer, but nothing I can't live with. Reengineering your car suspension is not something to take on without knowing what you're getting into, both in terms of the specific car and with suspension geometry and design in general, and, no offense intended, if you don't already know what you're trying to change, you're better off leaving it alone.

Yes, a lot of guys with the lifted versions of the 00-04 Legacy's just lower using the basic suspension components. Some do the rear spacers and thats pretty much the only thing that is extra. I don't see any spacer/specific OB part for the front, the lift may just be done by the strut/spring alone.

I'm saying is that if he thinks he can just throw regular Legacy struts on his OB to get to the lower ride height, as was implied in the OP, it's not that simple.

[sybir]

Yep. The issues for lowering OB's are tire height (Legacy-spec bits won't clear OB-height tires.)

However, the spacers don't cause any issues, especially on cars not laid out on the ground. Rear bumpstops and new rolling stock should be all you need in most cases, as the cars still align fine with the spacers in; mine have been fine with multiple suspension setups.

[jg09]

Oh wow, then I guess my latest decision is a good one. Anybody know of some coilovers that DON'T lower the car?

[gryffinwings]

Talk to importimageonline.com they may be able to get you a set made specifically for it, they sell a good brand called BC Racing, called the BR series, the main deal with these are these are just around 1k, but don't let the price fool you, because these are actually quite good for around 1k coilovers, I've been seeing good reviews for several different cars, 240sx, subarus, evos, etc. I actually looked around to see what was up with these.

There are others like Tein, but those are more expensive, but I hear that they aren't as good, Cusco makes a set, but it will lower the car. So the only way to get what you want is this, from my knowledge, there aren't very many options to work with in keeping with the stock height, since most of the suspension mods are made for the Legacy.

BC Racing BR Series Coilovers

KYB GR2 struts and shocks for the Outback and a good set of springs, I'm not sure on what springs you should get though.

[jg09]

I do know that Rallitek made some springs that were stiffer and didn't lower the car, though the rears are the only ones they carry now until they get rid of all their stock, then they won't be making them again. I'll look into KYB struts, though. I've heard good things about them.

[teeceRS]

i hate to be the guy bumping an old thread but hats off to sybir; he saved me a lot of time for something I was misinformed about. My brother suggested removing the body spacers:
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2014/02/IMG_4803_zps269e6438jpeg-1.jpg
to lower my BH9 by 3" but now I know that it won't do this, it'll just cause me problems down the road! Thanks guys