Water for Gas?!?

[01LGT]

Ok, I'll make this short and sweet. I came across this "modification" that alot of people are now throwing on their vehicles... as the topic of this thread reads - Water for Gas.

I have done some research on this topic but wanted to know what people on here thought of it... I am actually close to buying the manuals and parts to try this out on my 2001 LGT but wanted some opinions first...

What do YOU think and why?

All you have to do is google "water for gas" and you'll get about a million results!
http://www.google.com/search?q=water+for+gas

[1-3-2-4]

from one of the links...

"My 39 year old Landrover did 71.43mpg!!!!"

"1993 Pontiac Grand AM. Went from 28 MPG to 41.6 MPG."


lol...

[Huffer]

I think if you have a paid for vehicle and have the time and money to do this, and don't mind if you mess it up and the car is destroyed, then go for it.
It's always caveat emptor!

Based on this description:

It's very simple. You don't change your engine or ECU (car computer). A quart-size (95O cc) container, usually made of glass but can also be plastic or metal, is placed somewhere under the hood. You fill it with DISTILLED WATER and low-cost household electrolyte (causes electrical current). The device gets vacuum and 12 Volts from the engine, and produces HHO gas (Hydrogen+Oxygen) as shown in the video below.


The HHO gas is then supplied to the engine's intake manifold or carburetor as shown in the diagram below. Our design is simple, effective and safe. Don't worry, you will get full instructions and diagrams that make it simple and clear. It takes several of minutes to connect:
http://www.water4gas.com/images/vacuum.jpg
The electrical connection is very simple - we have eliminated the need to use relays or any other complications. The device connects to the 12 Volts of your battery via the ignition switch, to prevent hydrogen production when the engine is off. The device is fuse protected and draws very little current, only 1-3 Amps! This could take 10 minutes or less to connect.


It looks to me like you're basically atomizing water into a fine mist, which then assists the cooling of the air intake charge and makes the combustion process more efficient.

You know how the WRX STi Type RA uses a water sprayer for the IC? Same kind of process - the water atomizes and sprays into the IC, where it helps the intake charge cool and combust.

[1-3-2-4]

but I can't see a 39 year old car getting 73mpg...

[decke48]

what does a landrover get for mileage 12mpg? so the mpg improved by 608%

[Huffer]

Some people's MPG calculations are going to be way off... because they're people.

[01LGT]

I agree with huffer...LoL :lol:

Back on topic though... I'm really just looking for people who know alot about chemicals so I would have a better knowledge of what this "HHO" or "Browns Fuel" will do to the internals of my engine!

From what I can gather, the HHO being added to the gas in the intake manifold SHOULD burn cleaner thus making the engine more "fuel efficient".

But then and again - I'm probably way off on this one. Usually when something seems too good to be true it usually is!
:wink:

[Grafton]

i though that this worked via electrolsis seperating water into H2 and O2

water misters i've seen are for turbo'd cars some sobies come with a water mist thing for the manifold i believe.

[01LGT]

i though that this worked via electrolsis seperating water into H2 and O2


Yes - once again, from what I understand the "water for gas component" in this circumstance ONLY REMOVES the hydrogen from the water then adds it to the gas being dumped into the intake manifold

[MCarp22]

Those kits use energy from the car's engine to produce a reaction (separating water into H2 and O2) and then reverse the exact same reaction to get energy back for the car's engine. In a perfect world you can get no more energy out than you put in (that's the 1st law). In an imperfect world (like the one we live in) you get less (that's the 2nd law). Thus you're consuming X units of energy from the alternator to separate H2 from water. Oxidizing the H2 produces <X energy.

The key is that the oxidation of H2 is the exact reverse of the separation. You can't run the exact same reaction forwards and backwards and come up with more energy. In other words, you can't go from X to X plus energy.

[AussieDan]

There is a very simple reason that none of these devices work.

It takes more energy to split the water into hydrogen and oxygen than you get back when you burn the hydrogen.

[dodik]

i've been researchig this for a while now and am thinking of building this thing to see if it works or doesnt. i found this site maybe it will help some one in their research and its free.
http://www.mindstrain.com/

[Sarra]

Yeah, but you're adding more energy (water) to the system. You aren't using the car's electrical power to make the water.

That said, I think it's a waste of time and money.

[Huffer]

They say the same thing about the CO2 cooling and the Nitrous stuff too... except both of those and alcohol sprays are proven to boost the density of the intake charge...

I'm betting if you get the atomization of the H20 right, it'd work with varying results. I guess that's my conclusion right there...

[auspex]

Ok, it takes energy to split the Hydrogen and Oxygen....check.

This in turn becomes a combustible gas...check

This is combined w/the fuel and air to create MORE combustion...check

So, more combustion and power, for the same amount of fuel...check.

Makes sense.

Yes, it does require energy to separate the hydrogen and oxygen...BUT!!! This is not combustion energy, but battery energy.

So, you may wear down your batteries faster?

My only misunderstanding is this: How does the ECU not need to be re-programmed to compensate for this additional gas? Won't the MAF detect a greater amount of gas flowing and add more fuel to the process?

[auspex]

OH, btw, that illustration is not depicted correctly.

The battery is setup to charge the water to separate into H & O.

You're not injecting water, but the separated gases into the intake.

[auspex]

A few months ago I did quite a bit of research on HHO systems. If you quit thinking negatively and see the concept behind it, there is some sense to it.

A quality system runs over $200....most you see for the cheap are not materials or craftmanship you want next to your engine. (glass containers? are you fucking kidding me?)

I had planned to do this for fun, but I don't have enough disposable income to play scientist. I still believe this may work in conjunction with something like the Cobb AP, but unless someone drops a grand on my lap, I don't know whether your ECU will learn correctly, if at all.

Please ask questions about this system, but don't be a naysayer just because.

[shazapple]

Ok, it takes energy to split the Hydrogen and Oxygen....check.

This in turn becomes a combustible gas...check

This is combined w/the fuel and air to create MORE combustion...check

So, more combustion and power, for the same amount of fuel...check.

Makes sense.

Yes, it does require energy to separate the hydrogen and oxygen...BUT!!! This is not combustion energy, but battery energy.

So, you may wear down your batteries faster?


The alternator charges the battery. Additional electrical load on the electrical system puts more load on the alternator which puts more load on the engine.

Whether or not that additional load is greater than the extra fuel you are putting in... who knows.

[Mikey97D]

If you have an older car and don't care, go ahead and have a fun experiment.

Question: Does motor oil have sulfur? And if it does have any sulfur content, extra hydrogen in the system is a bad thing.

[auspex]

Shazapple,

Let's make an assumption that you can create some sort of maximum value for the load on the alternator while it's splitting the H & O.

And let's say the this value we create is no more of a load than when you are driving without the HHO system.

So, now you are simply using the stored energy in the battery to separate the gases. The alternator still charges the battery as normal, but, since you are using more power from the battery than normal, you wear out your batteries faster.

You are still consuming energy...just NOT in the form of Gasoline.

These are just the arguments in my head....Feel free to punch holes in them. I can certainly play the naive consumer role, though.

[MCarp22]

Feel free to punch holes in them.

Let's read what I said again:


Those kits use energy from the car's engine to produce a reaction (separating water into H2 and O2) and then reverse the exact same reaction to get energy back for the car's engine.

Understand this:

The battery does not store energy while the car is running.
You do not somehow get more energy out of a reaction than what you put in.

It goes like this:

Alternator energy -> HHO -> HHO combines to H20 -> Releases < Alternator energy

[shazapple]

Shazapple,

Let's make an assumption that you can create some sort of maximum value for the load on the alternator while it's splitting the H & O.

And let's say the this value we create is no more of a load than when you are driving without the HHO system.

So, now you are simply using the stored energy in the battery to separate the gases. The alternator still charges the battery as normal, but, since you are using more power from the battery than normal, you wear out your batteries faster.

You are still consuming energy...just NOT in the form of Gasoline.

These are just the arguments in my head....Feel free to punch holes in them. I can certainly play the naive consumer role, though.

You're thinking of the battery like its an open tub, and the alternator and electrical system like water pumps that are dumping and removing water (aka electricity). Its more like a closed tub, where the pressure of the removed water (electricity used) affects how the pump (alternator) works.

Electrical systems are affected by all the components attached to them. The use of electricity affects the magnetic fields in the alternator, which affects the torque required for the alternator, which affects the engine. Any electrical engineers care to chime in? I know I don't have the best explainations.

basically it comes down to: is the extra power/torque created by the combustion greater than the extra torque created by the HHO system?
I think this contraption is pretty neat and would like to see some results, but I'm wary of the required energy needed to produce the fuel.

[decke48]

the only way to seperate the hydrogen and oxygen semi-affectively with a car is to remove the diodes from the alternator (but would need another alternator to run seperate for the dc volts to charge the battery) so it produces ac voltage an alternator with out diode can produce around 220 (25 amps) ac volts at idle and can produce 600-750 (100amps) ac volt at max load. to seperate hydrogen and oxygen it requires high amount of voltage and amp.. and there is no way a 12 dc volt w/ 10-40? amps could produce an affective amount to make a none-minimal change

[jg09]

I'm calling the whole system snake oil, but that's just IMO. I tend to be skeptical about things that seem too good to be true.

[Wiscon_Mark]

It probably just drains your battery and rusts your exhaust system..

[subdog1]

:grin:

I am new here and joined because of this thread. I am in the process of installing a "Smack's Booster" google it and check it out. I am almost complete on the installation and once I've ran a few tanks through I'll post my results.

My base line mileage for city driving (no trips over 60 miles round trip) is 22.5 mpg (95 legacy wagon)

My base line mileage for blended driving (trips over 60 miles round trip and city driving) is 25 mpg

I have been tracking my mileage for 5 weeks with reciepts showing miles driven and fuel used.

Once I have the "booster" installed I will track for about 5 weeks and compare numbers.

This does work!!! I have a relative and a few friends who have put different systems on their vehicles. My relative increased from 25 mpg to 31 mpg in a 92 Chevy S10. He installed the Water for Gas system. My only problem with the Water for Gas system is, His only produced .8 oz per min. The Smack I have built produces 33.8 oz (1 litre) in 2 min 45 Sec and after one hour of run time was at 12 amps of current. Yes the water for gas is lower amperage but is also significantly lower in production.

Just my .02 hope it helps

[01LGT]

Welcome subdog1 :smile: ...

Hopefully you'll be able to shed a little more light on this subject, it's always nice to have some fresh angles on topic! Your using a kit I have never heard of, but I'll def. check it out...

Keep us posted bro'!

[Mikey97D]

Welcome to the site subdog1! The numbers that you've posted about other vehicles seems believable. Make sure you don't change your driving style when you make the change so you have a good reference. Also, would you mind checking your oil every time you fill up? I'm curious on the degradation of the oil since the hydrogen is going to leak into the lower end. Getting samples analyzed would be the ultimate for answers, but expensive.

[Monkhouse]

Feel free to punch holes in them.

Let's read what I said again:


Those kits use energy from the car's engine to produce a reaction (separating water into H2 and O2) and then reverse the exact same reaction to get energy back for the car's engine.

Understand this:

The battery does not store energy while the car is running.
You do not somehow get more energy out of a reaction than what you put in.

It goes like this:

Alternator energy -> HHO -> HHO combines to H20 -> Releases < Alternator energy

I'm not quite following this. You separate the water into hydrogen and oxygen, you burn the hydrogen with your normal fuel, and the oxygen is the byproduct, but at what point are you reversing the process and turning it back into water?

[Mikey97D]

Monkhouse - the byproduct in the exhaust is water after the combustion is complete.

[subdog1]

OK I'm no chemist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
You produce the Hydroxy gas in the vessel. You do consume some of the water through evaproation (this is how I understand it) You are not reclaiming the water vapor back to the vessel, this is not a regenerative process. The remaining water vapor is removed through the exhaust. The way I understand these units to work is, the hydroxy enhances the efficiency of the gas becuause it doesn't take as much of the gas energy to do the same amount of work because you are also using the energy of the hydroxy gas to suppliment the gas energy. The best figures I've seen is a 20% real increase in fuel mileage provided your ox. sensors don't tell the computer that the car is running too lean and cause the computer to feed more fuel into the system. If the ox. sensor does this there is a module you can build or buy that reverses this effect by basically lying to the computer and leaning out the mixture. Again I'm not a chemist but the principle works. As I said, I have a relative and some friends who have put these units on their vehicle and have seen an increase in mileage. Driving habits and conditions can explain some of the difference but not to extent of the increase in mileage they have seen.

[Monkhouse]

ok, this is gonna sound like I'm arguing, but I'm just trying to understand it.

If you separate the water into it's base componants, and burn one of them, how do you end up with water again? Is the electroysis not completely breaking down the water? or is the combustion not using all the hydrogen, leaving some to recombine with the oxygen to make water?

Edit: What happens in the winter? wouldn't the water freeze?

[subdog1]

In the winter, the booster must be removed from the car because there is no freeze protection that can be added to the water/lye mixture that one could be certain would not compromise the quality of the Hydroxy gas. If the booster can produce the kind of mileage gains stated, removal of the booster after use would be a small price to pay for the benefit.

[decke48]

If you separate the water into it's base componants, and burn one of them, how do you end up with water again?

5-6 thinks come out the exhaust. HC (hydrocarbons aka raw fuel) h1 c1, N20 (aka smog), C (carbon) ,and a mix of CO2 and CO3
now HC can come out two ways in a bonded form or sperated. now sence hydrogen and oxygen can not exist in a single molcule they must be bonded with two. when the HC comes out unbonded the hydrogen must become h2. but it is difficult to bond straight hydrogen. so it must find another component. and sence CO3 has a extra oxygen. it seperates into CO2, O1 and they oxygen must stablize it bonds to the h2. and makes H2O.. its a normal combustion result

[MCarp22]

the hydroxy enhances the efficiency of the gas becuause it doesn't take as much of the gas energy to do the same amount of work because you are also using the energy of the hydroxy gas to suppliment the gas energy.

That energy goes right into the extra load on the alternator. You're not doing the same amout of work anymore because you have to keep up the HHO supply.


If the ox. sensor does this there is a module you can build or buy that reverses this effect by basically lying to the computer and leaning out the mixture.

You could do this without the HHO. My honda for example is programmed to run lean from the factory. It gets awesome gas mileage.

[subdog1]

Man look at the can of worms we've opened here. Rather than continue to debate if it will work or not, I'll just let the mileage figures do the talking. I'm not selling anything so I have no reason to mislead. Once I've had sufficient time to verify mileage increase or decrease, I'll post again. Once again for any who believe it can't work, I've seen it work. Not on my vehicle but on others, that is why I decided to install one of these on my ride.

[Xoth]

Quick tip though...

Do not. I repeat, do NOT use salt as an electrolyte in this. The science behind it is this: you use the salt (NaCl) as an electrolyte. During the process, the two get separated, leaving you with sodium, a metal which will probably build up somewhere within the car's engine or intake system, and you also get chlorine, a gas, which is highly fatal to humans. Therefore, you get some chlorine floating around near (or in your car, for that matter), and you breathe enough of it in... you're probably dead. :-(

[subdog1]

So far, from what I can tell, the O2 sensors are messing with me. My mileage is 28.8 on a HWY trip of 121 miles. I'm going to try the chip that adjusts the output of the O2 sensor to lean the car out and get a Air fuel Ratio gauge to be sure where I am running. My plan is to adjust the AFR without the booster in place and check mileage. Then I will leave the settings in and run the booster. Hell, I figure I'm almost $100 into this what's another $200 to play.

[01LGT]

Kool subdog1... I'm really glad your trying this out! I still have a bunch of research to do on this topic - so much stuff, so little time! :lol:

[track8]

So far, from what I can tell, the O2 sensors are messing with me. My mileage is 28.8 on a HWY trip of 121 miles. Let me get this right, you are getting exactly the same mpg that a Legacy gets normally without this device, and the conclusion you come up with is that a sensor is "messing with you"?

P.T. Barnum was right, even today.

[auspex]

So far, from what I can tell, the O2 sensors are messing with me. My mileage is 28.8 on a HWY trip of 121 miles. Let me get this right, you are getting exactly the same mpg that a Legacy gets normally without this device, and the conclusion you come up with is that a sensor is "messing with you"?

P.T. Barnum was right, even today.

Did he say he was getting the same?

[track8]

He did not, he never posted a hwy number that I can find. 28 hwy mpg is exactly what both of my (current and previous) Legacy wagons get, (at 80 to 85mph with the A/C on) one is a 2.2 the other is a 2.5.

That just doesn't seem like an improvement to me.

[liquidracing]

o.k. so, i've read this one too, mainly 'cause it involve voltage. here's the way it works. p.s.-decke, and everyone else reading this, DO NOT pull the diodes out of you alternator to try to make this work! not that the line voltage will kill you, but, that's just for starters. to make oxy-hydrogen, you need high amperage, not voltage. if you pull the diodes you drop amperage, and gain voltage.
we must use ohm's law: voltageXamperage=wattage. so if you have an alternator that puts out 14.4volts x 90amps=1296watts of power(ever wonder why exactly your headlights dim the bigger the subwoofer amp is?)

o.k. so we've established wattage at 1296watts output. if you pull the diodes, it WILL give you a/c current, but, now use ohm's law again, in reverse order:1296watts/120volts(a/c, which is what you will get from dropping diodes)=10.8amps. the smallest output hho generator i've ever seen, ran off 15 amps.
btw, i've been researching this since 1991. i had a western civilization class i had to write a paper on how to change the world :-? .
so you need high amps, why, you ask? well, to split H2O into it's molecular structure which, btw, is NOT water or steam or any variant, it is simply a swirling mixture of separated molecules, like oil/hot water for cooking macaroni, only suspended in the surrounding air. don't confuse this with puttin steam into your engine.
now, if you would, please view electricity as water in your house. voltage is, in essence, likened to the speed of the water traveling through the pipes, and amperage is the amount of force behind that speed. this is why they say that a million volts can't harm you unless there is a scalable amperage load, however, one amp can kill you even if there is no real scalable voltage. this is because in electrical world, speed doesn't kill, force kills. better yet, voltage is horsepower, and amperage is torque, (as an analogy for the gear heads). which would you rather have more of?
well, to separate hydrogen and oxygen you need lots and lots of FORCE(amps), but little to no SPEED(volts). once you've applied amperage to the plates inside the "tank" the chemical reaction between materials takes place.
stainless steel is best imo, because it's relatively cheap, withstands corrosion, heat, rust, however these contraptions are serviceable, and there's a lot of thought involved in how one should maintain them.
i can help if anyone wants to pm me, 'cause it'll take pages to explain maintenance.
so the needed pieces are stainless steel, water, and a catalyst(sodium{baking soda}, or vinegar{white, not flavored}) with these three items in place, in correct formulation, you have a prototype hho generator. the amount of water in the tank changes amperage draw, as does the amount of catalyst, as does the amount of steel, that's where the science is. as you use the generator, your amperage draw will slowly decay over time, that is usually when people will change out the water. also, the higher the amperage, the warmer the "tank".
did you know that an electrical device is not dependant of the electric supply, rather the electric supply is dependant of the electrical device? an electrical device will ONLY use what it needs. you cannot force more electricity into a device, it doesn't work that way.
i know, that makes the water pipe analogy seem sketchy, but, if electricity produced exceeds demand than that excess is usually spent in heat(resistors that'll cook your fingers off), ever play with r/c cars that had those little white heat sinks? now you know why it was hot! so, if you build a large generator that requires 50amps to run, than you need 50 amps of low-voltage(12-14.4v) what most people don't do, which is where they go wrong, is they don't get a higher capacity alternator, like phoenix gold's 200amp alternator.
remeber the 1296watts? if you used the same ohm's law you'll find out that that alternator puts out 2880watts, almost double! if your car runs on 65amps at 14.4volts, and your generator is only rated at 90amps, that leaves 35 amps to run a system that requires an additional 30amps to run correctly. this is where people go wrong. they do it in audio-phile horror stories about alternators catching fire and the whole 9yards, 'cause their 2000watt stereo was too much for that little alternator.
my only suggestion is....RESEARCH, and a lot of it, leading up to taking at least a basic course in electrical currency at you local college! serious! it IS a science, old and mostly lost until recently, but a science none the less. it really does work, just, it's too hard to make a fool-proof system that the cute ditsy little blonde at the pump next to you can manage to operate consistently, due pretty much to the fact that the amperage is ever-changing because of the ever-changing ratios in the "tank."
hope that wasn't too long, but, i believe that people need to be informed.
now, what happens in the motor is exactly the opposite. to re-bond the oxygen and hydrogen particals, you need a lot of heat, and pressure, just like the earth's core being able to make CO out of volcanoes. so, an engine has enough of both heat and pressure. it is EXACTLY a fusion(combining) process, not unlike a fusion atom bomb, just on an inert scale(no radioactivity) :grin: !
the problem now is not the steam that is produced in the combustion chamber, it is the catalyst you previously needed to help in the origional fission(splitting)process. your two over-the-counter choices were, baking soda, or vinegar, only 'cause we can all buy this stuff. the other catalysts are a bit harder to come by. so the question becomes not; what will water do to the inside of my engine, rather, what will SALT, or ACID do to the inside of my engine.
i agree with whoever said to get a little p.o.s. test car, because you'll go through about 10 engines before you get it right. i blew two, and melted one before i ran out of money and motivation back in the 90's doing this. now, i figure i'll let someone else destroy all their hard-earned money trying to get a stupid simple device that any 16 year old can run. i hope this makes a bit of sense. again sorry for the lengthy reply, but, i couldn't pass up on shedding a little light on hho's. they DO work, they're NOT reasonable for the mass public!

[Huffer]

USE THE ENTER KEY A FEW TIMES

[liquidracing]

again....sorry for the babble, got on a role
oh, there's the enter key.
thought it was self-destruct button :smile:

[liquidracing]

o.k.huffer i fixed it up a bit. :grin: with my new found ENTER key!