Going to be Creating a Air filter w/ hood scoop!

[HeresMyMind]

Ok i found this on rs25 forums. they only made a few of them due to cost. but they are extremely efficient and water proof. BUT they are not made for MAF cars. so I plan on altering 1 and making a working one for the legy. if I create a efficient working one, would people be interested in buying them? this would be the BEST CAI u can buy ofcourse :-D

-B

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2008/08/14awzlc-1.jpg

[99SUS SFD]

Details?

[4n70n1n0]

that wuld be freakin sweet dude, but I would be affraid of hydro-locking my engine, but yo say it's water proof. How would if keep the water entering my engine in a rain storm ?

Let say if you can survive a tropical storm wiith that thing. I'm in.

[Airgne]

one way would be putting alittle pipe pointing down before entering the eng.

[A1Fiddler]

Cool idea, but I'd be worried about the water. I'm in Seattle, so I get a lot of it. Then again, I wouldn't be able to run it cause I'm turbo anyway..

[Xoth]

I'm mostly with the group on this one. I'd be worried about getting water down in my engine. But, if you can prove that it's completely waterproof and all that, I'm definitely down for it. I'd buy it. :grin:

[BE-Fresh]

The way I see it, it can't be completely waterproof, but it would be hard for rain to get into it. Most hoods are slopped (sp?) downwards towards the front of the vehicle. Also, with the hoodscoop, the legacies are molded into the hood, unlike the WRX?STis. The only way I could see water being a problem, would be huge downpours, and when one is washing the car anyway.

[blackgtbeauty]

With a WRX/STi style hood scoop I could see it working great, but will it really be beneficial with the crappy 2nd gen hood scoop?

[scotty_frank]

The legacy scoop takes in as much air as a wrx scoop iirc. Also iirc its slightly more functional(given there is a purpose for it airfilter in this case or IC)

[rougeben83]

MAF's don't like being close to the TB.

[HeresMyMind]

im aware of that. It will have tubing equal length to the stock intake.

-b

[)2edline]

first HID Retro's and now custom modifying gravelsport intakes?

i think i love you. <3 :cry:

[Sarra]

Interesting. If I had kept my BK I would be highly interested in this, especially if it works well.

[Reason]

I hate to be on the negative side, but this won't work for a few reasons.

1. I don't care what the maker said, it's NOT "waterproof" (objects unaffected by water or resisting water passage, or which are covered with a material that resists or does not allow water passage.)

If air is being sucked in, so will water.

2. Slanted hood, covered and small open scoop means nothing. If you are drving in a rain storm water WILL enter the hood scoop. Ask GT owners that opend the hood scoop and got CEL lights when the knock sensor got wet.

3. Theres a reason why there where only made for MAP base cars and not MAF cars. The MAF is a sensitive electrical piece (oh yea, water and electricity..hmmmm) Like Rouge said the MAF close to the TB might not be a good idea. There may be a reason why it was designed to be so far away.

I'm not trying to burst your bubble, just trying to be practical. I can hear you now calling me "harsh" among other things, but thats how it is.

[Sarra]

I never had a problem with a CAI on my BK during the rain, even when the filter got soaked. It would decrease performance a little, maybe, but it never screwed my MAF sensor over.

[Reason]

Whatever, it's an electrical component, it can happen. Hydro lock is more of a concern than anything.

[)2edline]

A few months ago when Rs25 board members were begging for gravelsport intakes, said that K&N and other oiled intake panel filters did their job.

I was skeptical but still thought the idea of a top mount intake was pretty trick. Board members never really divulged whether water caused them great amount of woes tho. I really thought water would bypass any filter regardless of oiling or not. Anyone have any experience with said intake? there was said only to be like 25 made or something.

[Sarra]

Geeze, I submerged the front end of a 2000 Legacy L up to the windshield in water, then floored it in reverse (to get out). I sucked up A TON of water, and it didn't hydrolock. Unless you're living in the rainiest part of the damn planet, I doubt you could hydrolock a car just from rain.

[Reason]

Think about what you are saying. If your (now what it looks like to me) whole engine is "under water" yea something is going to happen. You story sounds exaggerated, but whatever, who am I to say your engine waster completely water proof. :roll:

It doesn't rain often here, but when it does the streets flood. My car shut down twice from driving in 6-8 of water. And that's just from water waves hitting the filter. If you suck up enough water, you WILL hydro lock. Don't throw out false hope. This intake set up is discontinued for a reason. Price of fabrication, I doubt it.

If you are driving a a good amount of time in a rain storm water will build up. Whos to say how long and how much it will take, it's common sense.

[)2edline]

common sense makes me sad that this intake isn't practical :cry:

[Okin DaVanh]

I hear what most are saying here, but what about a bypass valve??? ala-AEM style? You know... the unit that's placed in between the filter and the tubing itself to stop water entry on the cold air intakes? They're proven to work. Could it be used with this set up to prevent Hydrolocking of the motor with this set up?

I wouldn't want to place anything on my car with the slightest possibility of having to go get my family on the highway somewhere, but it seems like he's onto something.

[HeresMyMind]

this intake style is proven. To he a lot better than Cobb cai by everyone who has used it

-B

[02legacygt]

mabye something to think about would be a cowl induction hood(damn i dont even know if they make them for legacy's) with this type of intake... protect from the rain + all the benefits of cold air!!!!, im not talking like a huge 11" cowl either, something moddest like 2" or 3" off the hood!, just an idea!

[HeresMyMind]

i want to keep our stock hood scoop and make it usable. After talking with a few guys from the rs forums, they all said that water has not effected their filters in the slightest. that there isnt enough water to do damage even during downpoors, because of the angle of the filter the water beads off it. 1 person even did a test with spraying a hose into his scoop while running and he said it had 0 effect. so i thought of 2 diff ways to do this. or possibly BOTH.

1) place some type of LIP at the top edge of the filter to catch any water.

2) take some sort of screen. like window screen that has fine holes and maybe put 2 layers of it infront of the filter. so all the water rolls down it. but the air goes through.

as for tools and all that stuff. ty for help but I have access to all the sheetmetal and presses and all that good stuff that I want to, my dad runs a HVAC shop. so materials and tools are well covored. I will be working on this idea to HOPEFULLY have a prototype ready for the meet oct 4th.

ALSO
Since our cars have MAF, I will make the pipe the same distance from the TB to the MAF , than have it goto the filter itself. the intake needs a pocket of air to be able to surge it for the low end torque. thats why we have boxes in the intake. I will keep you posted. heres a pic of the screen idea to give you an idea. also a pic of another one made for an impreza

-B

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2008/09/b8u52q-1.jpg

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2008/09/xp3joy-1.jpg

[Reason]

What proof do you have that this is "proven"? Putting a hose to it and 0 water going into it sounds pretty far fetched.

[HeresMyMind]

http://www.rs25.com/forums/showthread.p ... avelsports (http://www.rs25.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11305&highlight=gravelsports)

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread ... avelsports (http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=44947&highlight=gravelsports)

-B

[rougeben83]

im aware of that. It will have tubing equal length to the stock intake.

-b

And that's the issue. If you're maintaining the same intake tract length to keep the MAF happy, there's really no significant difference from running a fender CAI vs. this hood mounted one.

The principal advantage of the hood scoop intake is to shorten the intake tract to the TB, which helps with throttle response (from what I've heard/read about these types of intakes). On the MAP this doesnt have any downsides but on an MAF car, altering the MAF sensor position does.

[subba]

So you run it fully exposed during dry season, but their is a insert or cover for the scoop when its raining?

[HeresMyMind]

no the filter will be able to suck in COLDER air than froms whats in ur fender. think about it.

go for a ride

place your hand in ur cabin with all the windows down.

now place ur hand out the window.

which one is getting colder air? specially if u think about it. the cold running air that will eb hitting the filter box/holder too keeping that cooler also

and NO there wont eb an insert. I will test it without an insert. and if its needs on. than there will be one. but if all the guys on the rs forums say they arnt needed. than i doubt we will need them. the screen idea is just a "safe" mode or peace of mind for those who doubt the water idea. and yes. I am planning on using a AEM bypass valve. if you look at the tests done with that online. it saves lives. water on the filter wont hurt you. the RS guys said that if they got the OIL'd filter. which IMO has never hurt any of my MAF cars. but keep it oiled and water isnt an issue. we'll see. let me construct something before i get ripped a new one by the cynically pessimistic reason :-D

If you never try it you'll never know if it woulda worked to begin with

-Bx2

[)2edline]

you're doing good followups and although skeptical about some things, i wanna be a believer. lol, i wanna be first in line. by oct. 4th? crazyyyyy

but btw, that illustration is ridiculous paint style.

[Reason]

Lol reading these post from the other forums are great. "Caked on mud, and no ill effects" Yea right, think about that for a minute.

And your whole reasoning about colder at the scoop than the fender is, if anything, to a limited crowd. My fender is completely open to the incoming air and my filter is at the fog light opening.

So to not be completely negative I will give you a few thoughts how this may be ran safe. I agree with the AEM valve, I've planned on using it myself. Also instead of the screen, buy an INJEN hydroshield and cut it open and use that to block the scoop. That actually resist water, unlike a screen.

[rougeben83]

Lol reading these post from the other forums are great. "Caked on mud, and no ill effects" Yea right, think about that for a minute.

And your whole reasoning about colder at the scoop than the fender is, if anything, to a limited crowd. My fender is completely open to the incoming air and my filter is at the fog light opening.

So to not be completely negative I will give you a few thoughts how this may be ran safe. I agree with the AEM valve, I've planned on using it myself. Also instead of the screen, buy an INJEN hydroshield and cut it open and use that to block the scoop. That actually resist water, unlike a screen.

Most subbie fenders are like that, that's why I'm saying it's not much of a difference.

He can try, I'm just saying it's not going to be much different from all the other CAI solutions out there.

[Reason]

Lol reading these post from the other forums are great. "Caked on mud, and no ill effects" Yea right, think about that for a minute.

And your whole reasoning about colder at the scoop than the fender is, if anything, to a limited crowd. My fender is completely open to the incoming air and my filter is at the fog light opening.

So to not be completely negative I will give you a few thoughts how this may be ran safe. I agree with the AEM valve, I've planned on using it myself. Also instead of the screen, buy an INJEN hydroshield and cut it open and use that to block the scoop. That actually resist water, unlike a screen.

Most subbie fenders are like that, that's why I'm saying it's not much of a difference.

He can try, I'm just saying it's not going to be much different from all the other CAI solutions out there.

Exactly, I just said that because if I were to say all or most fenders the optimists for this set up would have said something like the fog light blocks air flow and all that jazz.

Heres my filter

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/EJ25Legacy/DSCF0002.jpg

If this thing was made for MAF cars, and actually in production, I say go for it. But to spend the time and money to make this, I think it will just lead up to disappointment.

[HeresMyMind]

i can understand. and your right it may not be a improvement over ur style shane. but hell. if it is equal or better. (materials are free for me). I could still say I own the only one. and it would truelly be a custom CAI :-D. It may not work. but hell why not try it? if it worked on their cars it MAY work on ours with some custom fabrication. here is a quick idea i jotted down.

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2008/09/2vvjq78-1.jpg

also nice bumper shane jdm goodness at its finest.

-B

[decke48]

theres a couple problems with the design with MAF (like said before)
1) water droplet/vapor.. the way a MAF works is by heating the metal film inside the MAF housing to 350*F and when air passes though it cools down the film. and calcuates how much air is flowing through. if the film was to get wet 1 it might break under the extreme tempature change or 2 it would cool down the film extremely and make the car think it was sucking in to much air dumping in extreme amounts of fuel. causing dropless. and posible detonation. ruining the engine.
2) lenght of the runner. might be an issue

[Sarra]

Water going through the filter isn't going to remain in droplet form. Besides, water is heavier than air, any droplets that form will hit the walls of the intake due to inertia.

[Reason]

Water going through the filter isn't going to remain in droplet form. Besides, water is heavier than air, any droplets that form will hit the walls of the intake due to inertia.

:smt104

You should stop after your comment about submerging your engine in water and nothing happens.

[Sarra]

Water going through the filter isn't going to remain in droplet form. Besides, water is heavier than air, any droplets that form will hit the walls of the intake due to inertia.

:smt104

You should stop after your comment about submerging your engine in water and nothing happens.

I'd put you on ignore, but you're an admin.

[Reason]

I'm not an admin, ignore me if you like. Just don't type crazy talk.

[HeresMyMind]

lollerskates at the S.S.Subaru post. Electrical would fail also. Not to mention maybe if you were lucky the snorkle was submerged so fast that there was a huge air pocket to let u back out. But... That's hella rare. I smell BS

-b

Oh and a side note I ignore shane a lot. So don't feel alone! LOL at reason

[immortal1kon]

hey man if you arei nterested a while back i started some cad pre lim and actually got to a 3d model in inventor of something i was gonig to build but it was much different than the gravel in that it had a longer pipe to correctly place the maf sensor the right distance from the engine nad intake filter. also instead of an open filter fiberglassing a special mold over the filter housing which can utilize the full potential of the hood. i never got around to fiberglassing or buying pipes. but i can try to help if you want any cause i am curious to how well it will work

[immortal1kon]

and a fix to the water issuse to to have a drain in the bottom of the filter housing though unless it is pouring the scoop does not take in nearly enough water to lock the engine up truely the majority either evaporates form the excessive heat in thei ntake manifold or just never gets into the engine cycle... i know people who have ran cone filters directly on their throttle bodys in an RS and havent locked up in heavy down pours... i guess it's luck

[shizznats]

Any chance something like this would work?

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2008/09/afdgad_edited1-1.jpg

[immortal1kon]

youtube the aem bypass valve... you can buy one and all your worries will go away. and it can be mounted at any part of the intake beforethe throttle body so that it purges the water before it gets in the engine. they proved this by submerging an aem cold air intake under water and showed how the bypass valve just removes constant water prefectly fine. sorry cant find the video but heres a link to the article...
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/ ... index.html (http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0104scc_aem_air_bypass_valve/index.html)

[Reason]

This will work different on this set up. The filter cant and wont be submerged (unless you stick the whole front of your car into a lake like Sarra :roll: lol) whatever water that gets into the box will eventually travel the path at WOT. The bypass wont open because there will be no pressure drop. And who ever said the intake manifold will be hot enough to evaporate the water before it went to far into the engine is wrong. Think about when you add seafoam, it doesn't evaporate the instant it gets sucked in.

[immortal1kon]

it's not water and it's chemical i promis you when you drop a drop of water on your manifold and look at what happens it wont bead and continue.... i understand the bypass valve problem but you need almost a galon of water to get hydro lock. because even if it reaches the piston is it's not too much shit will get dried /evap'd. like i said i looked into this a hwile back when i first got my car nad the most reasonable hood intake is to use a cobb in line filter and have a fiberglass style mold which lines up with the hood scoop and has a drain on the bottom and the piping comes from behind if anyone is serious about makeing it i can dig up my old R&D efforts....

[immortal1kon]

i have been in heavy rain because i live in VA and once in a while we get insane raging dwn pours nad my RS was fine in the rain it sucked in water but it didnt make it to my block for sure car ran fine and i was driving for a good 2 hours, ironically the day i change to the top mount style it rained hardcore nad i drove through an empty parking lot and i didnt even see that it dipped in and my whole from bumper submegred nad there was water flying over my car nad shit, scary times but nothing bad happened.

[Reason]

I understand what hot metal objects do to water. I clean my engine all the time while running. I house the intake manifold off and such. Once the water cools the IM down a bit it takes a good 10 minutes to evaporate. A few of the past rain storms we had I can assure you that if I had this set up I would be stuck on the side of the road kicking rocks. This set up should be good in dry weather fun. Race days and summer cruises. I just wouldn't recommend it to the rainy areas.

[4n70n1n0]

the more i think about this intake the more i think we wont get enough water in the scoop to do any water damage, but worry now is when the car is parked. maybe make a drain at the bottom that shuts with air pressure from the intake and opens with no pressure

http://b.imagehost.org/0553/INTAKE.gif

[Reason]

And your angled drain will suck in unfiltered hot engine bay air. Almost makes it pointless.

[4n70n1n0]

NOPE! Like I said have it shut with the air pressure and open with none. It mostly for when the car us parked

[Reason]

What about when driving? When you have the pedal down you will have air pressure holding the flap closed and water is building up and eventually getting sucked up. Or do you plan to drive a few feet and pull over and let your intake box drain and drive some more?

[4n70n1n0]

like I said before and a few people are saying and I nw agree with them. I don't think we will get THAT much water in the scoop. It will spray the scoop with water, but not pour in. I really don't think we get that much water in the scoop to make it an issue while we are drving

[immortal1kon]

thats why i said a cob style filter because then it can be far away and the mould that fits up to the roof will be empty and will have a small nickel sized hole in the bottom where no mater where you are water doesnt go through the intake tract. i is very possible and easy to do, just time consuming and it doesnt pay off.