double din vs single?

[scubydu]

I know this may just come down to personal preference, but I am ready to upgrade my HU and wanted to go with DD for the stock look.
Was wanting to hear from anyone with DD for their input? Pros? Cons? Pics?
Thanks

[Huffer]

I don't have a DD, but I used to and I hated it. I lost a valuable storage area in the car, and the additional functions weren't all that great.

If you had one that had a screen maybe it would be useful for watching video or sat-nav/GPS but in the Legacies the DIN spaces are so low you really have to struggle to see anything from the drivers seat.

I know some people make car-puters out of that 2DIN space, don't know if that's your end-goal, but I'm a bit of a minimalist.

[scubydu]

good point, but in the BE's, there are actually 3 din slots, so I wouldn't lose any space, and it's plenty high.
Thanks for the input though

[ScarySkulls]

For an equal amount of cash out of your pocket, the Single DIN player will always provide better sound quality than the Double Din unit at same price point.
There might be exceptions, but this is the general rule.

[Huffer]

For an equal amount of cash out of your pocket, the Single DIN player will always provide better sound quality than the Double Din unit at same price point.
There might be exceptions, but this is the general rule.

You'll have to explain that and back it up.

[Brockley]

he is saying that for, lets say $250, you can get a much better quality single DIN than a DD... which is very true. Honestly, unless you want a DVD or Nav, as said before, I would also go with a single din. depending on what you want to spend, I would recommend an alipne 9886, or maybe pioneer 5000... for dual din, maybe a Kenwood 512.
all other DD units (aka non DVD ones) are honestly a waste, unless you go with something like a WRX with 6 disc. (or maybe something with a cassette player?!?!? lol)

[ScarySkulls]

Sure. I will try and give it a shot.

Disclaimer first : I am no expert on the issue. Just a mere enthusiast who has once worked selling car audio for pocket money. My experiences are limited to a few brands.



You'll have to explain that

Well, it's a combination of what I was told by my mentors and what saw and observed myself.

Remember the old computers that took up a LOT of space and generated gobs of heat? Well, apply same concept here.

Original double din sized HU's can be traced back to many many years ago when electronics were big in size and had huge heat sinks. However, as electronics progressed further and further, everything became smaller and cooler. now you had more space to play with, so in late 80's you now saw Double Dins with CD+Cassette playback capabilities.
Now that better music compression algorithms are there backed by the manufacturers packing more and more space on hard disks and solid state memory, you have players now actually able to store huge Data in the same size.
Everything keeps getting smaller and cooler and thus you have a LOT of "Real Estate" to play around with. This, generally, gets used to provide Fancy touchscreens, navigation options etc. and hence the Double Din players end up costing money.

Another point to be considered is the size of the 1Din market. It's easily more than double than the 2DIN market and hence all new technologies and features can be seen there first as manufacturers generally put more money there.



and back it up.

Since I used the words, SOUND QUALITY, for the intent of this post, I will stick to only that benchmark.
Also, for this excercise, I am going to examine 2Din offerings of popular manufacturers like Clarion, Kenwood and compare their cheapest and most expensive 2Din models with comparatively priced 1Din models.
I am going to use sites like http://www.onlinecarstereo.com as a reference for prices.
I will check for the closest priced 1Din model. If there are two choices with equal deviation on both the upper and lower sides of the 2Din price, I will choose the most rational choice at that point of time. (Since I am assuming all customers are rational buyers with IQ measuring in positive numbers)

Clarion ->

Cheapest - Clarion DUZ385SAT $164.00
comaprable 1Din model - Clarion DXZ785USB $175.00 (AND $130 shipped on Amazon.com)
A high priced model on sale for so less. 24bit DAC's. 6pairs of Pre-outs. 3 way Active cross overs, Time alignment. A true no-brainer choice at this price point.

Highest priced - Clarion NX509 $999.99
comparable 1Din model -> The Legendary Clarion DRZ-9255 or HX-D2 (as it is known in some markets) for $899.00. This is one of the most sonically pure and clean sounding headunits money can buy for <$1000. I have extensive experience with this headunit and personally agree with every other review out there on internet on this. This is the stuff Legends are made of.



Kenwood ->

Cheapest - Kenwood DPX303 $214
comparable 1Din model - Kenwood KDC-BT838U $198. Wow. Gem of a Headunit again. 6 Channel pre-outs, Bluetooth, Direct 1 wire or Native iPod support. Also, in my opinion, this platform of Kenwood has shown to be very clean and transparent sounding for the money
Another no brainer? You bet!

Most expensive - Kenwood DNX7120 $949
comparable 1Din model - No clear cut rival at same price point. There are two HU's that come close. For $ 639 Kenwood KVT-719DVD gives you DVD playback and touchscreen controls while Navigation customers can add few more dollars and buy the Kenwood P-NAV514 for $799. As regards our yard stick i.e. Sound Quality, I'm sure we all can google around to read reviews. I dont have personal experience with ANY of these, but don't feel there is a reason for 1Dins falling short in that department.


Hope this helps.
Feel free to ask more questions.



he is saying that....

Hmmmm. And I thought I had made a clear, concise and "to the point" post above.
Looks like it wasnt as good as I hoped for. I apologize.



I would recommend an alipne 9886..

And I would recommend doing a side by side comparo of 9886 and 9887 and seeing if you can spot difference in build/sound quality. Going through these might also help
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_500CDA9886 ... tab=review (http://www.crutchfield.com/p_500CDA9886/Alpine-CDA-9886.html?tp=5684&tab=review)

[Huffer]

See, the problem is you used a unit of measurement that's as subject as a piece of string. "sound quality" is like two guitarists arguing over tube amp vs. digital.

I appreciate the effort you expended to clarify, but you have to realize that you can't just throw around subjective terms when everyone has a different seat of ears. I mix music in live situations as a hobby, and what sounds good to me can sometimes drive someone else nuts.

[ScarySkulls]

Correct on all counts.
That is exactly why we kept a healthy mix of brands back home. So that we could cater to every possible customer and maximize our sales, market penetration and customer satisfaction. Sure this increased our workload as more brands means more time and effort required in giving customers Demos of different permutations and combinations possible within their budget, but in general it always led to more happy customers.

You will notice that in the above post, I have highlighted a specific set of features of each comparable 1Din unit which I believe will lead to a superior sound, all other things being equal, purely on the basis of superior hardware.
If you want, I will take out some more time and go through the features one by one and explain how, in my opinion, they are a superior hardware and how, again in my opinon, that increases the probability of that headunit of giving out a more sonically accurate output.

Just as a small example, lets take up the DRZ9255 which is the flagship CD player of Clarion and still 100$ cheaper than their most expensive Dual Din model.
Inside it, I see -

- Four Burr Brown 1793, K-Grade 24Bit/192KHz Digital to Analogue convertors
- 96KHz upsampling using AKM DSP and FIR digital filter.
- 0.5 step Burr Brown volume pot
- 4 layer circuit board and 6N copper output RCA's.
- High Precision CD transport and pickup mechanism

It is commonly known that Clarion has spent a lot of money and R&D on the above components and because of these this the HU is expensive and offers very high level of SQ in CD playback. I have yet to see a Dual Din match it's levels and this is something not me alone, but our complete complete customer base agreed upon.

In any case, this will be my last post on this regard as I don't see any point in debating. I posted what I felt. Members have full right to agree or disagree, because all said and done, I am a newbie and lack experience that most members here have.

Thanks for reading this and Cheers for the nice forum. Really loved going through the various posts on the Mechanical/Engine side of things. Will continue to browse and learn more.

Cheers!
RJ.

[Huffer]

Hey RJ, no worries - I'm not trying to inflame anyone or start a debate. It's my job though, to call people on subjective terminology - because ultimately it doesn't help anyone if there is no objective baseline for a topic.

I still don't understand exactly how a number of high quality components can lead to high levels of "sound quality" - as there's no measument unit of SQ. You can measure DB, but SQ?

The SQ is in the ear of the beholder. :)

[scubydu]

Thanks for the entertaining debate guys, that was great! :argue:
:grin:
RJ, I see your point, and I think it's a valid one (although I'm pretty sure I'm not going to spend $1000 on a cd player that doesn't even play MP3 or WMA CD's)
My ears definitely are not tuned enough to hear the difference between a $200 stereo and a $1000 one.
I was more thinking about maintaining stock look, availability of features (Aux input, USB, changeable display color) and ease of use.
As always, Huffer, thanks for keeping us all honest :smt023

[ScarySkulls]

I still don't understand exactly how a number of high quality components can lead to high levels of "sound quality" - as there's no measument unit of SQ. You can measure DB, but SQ?
The SQ is in the ear of the beholder. :)

:smile:
Exactly. Unless you have a pair of Gifted/trained set of ears, spending these insane amounts makes no sense.

I merely drawed upon my own experiences and hence used the underlying assumption of Better Hardware showing a better signal processing and an output that was most faithful to the Studio Master copy.

However, you are right. Somebody's SQ might not be the same for the other guy. Hence the importance of installers taking out time and giving customer extensive Demos within the customer's own car. That is the single biggest part of the whole process.



(although I'm pretty sure I'm not going to spend $1000 on a cd player that doesn't even play MP3 or WMA CD's)

Interesting topic that is/has been discussed atleast once on every mobile audio forum. There are always debates as to why the companies cannot give us FLAC/MP3/WMA/AAC playback even though customers spending One-Tenth of the amount are getting those options.
The common consensus is between parties on both sides of the argument is that:-

- Using the KISS philosophy is always good. Adding more hardware/codecs for playback of fancy formats has a high likelihood of compromising signal purity. This is exactly why most manufacturers of quality equipment give you options of turning off the display, internal amplifier etc. Infact, when you check out specs of high end units like this DRZ9255, McIntoshes, Nakamichis etc, you will see that they come WITHOUT any internal amps to minimize any additional/wasteful circuitry and eliminate maximum possible areas where distortion can creep in / signal strength and purity be compromised.

- People spending this much money on 1Din player v/s a Fancy-Shmancy Dual Din are most likely very serious about their music. And giving options of FLAC/MP3/WMA/AAC playback to those customers makes no sense because they will never use anything below an Original Audio CD for their music. This is keeping in line with the computer philosophy of GIGO (Garbage In Garbage Out) back from the MS-DOS days.



My ears definitely are not tuned enough to hear the difference between a $200 stereo and a $1000 one.


Exactly why it makes no sense for you to buy expensive Audio stuff when there are Suspension / Performance upgrades to be had for the same money :twisted: