07 WRC EJ25 Turbo engine in a '99 Legacy BH 2.5 GX

[danci1973]

Well, since my engine has all sorts of problems (head gasket and a weird ticking / knocking sound most people associate with rod bearings) I'm considering my options.

One of those is a 07 WRC EJ25 Turbo engine, that comes with:


TURBO[/*:m:1dij8ot2]
intercooler[/*:m:1dij8ot2]
wiring loom[/*:m:1dij8ot2]
flywheel/clutch[/*:m:1dij8ot2]
alternator[/*:m:1dij8ot2]
power steering pump[/*:m:1dij8ot2]
ECU with matching coded key[/*:m:1dij8ot2]

My car is a German spec LHD with a EJ251 engine, a dual-range manual gearbox and has an automatic AC, cruise control, ... - and I'd like to keep all fully functional.

The donor car is / was a RHD with a manual gearbox (5MT), but I'm not sure / don't know about AC and cruise control (it's only apparent that the AC compressor isn't included).

I know there are more parts needed for this swap to work at all, but so far I can only think of:


exhaust[/*:m:1dij8ot2]

I'm looking for hard facts, educated guesses and (realistic) opinions about doability of such a swap.

Thanks in advance, D.

[Grafton]

you'll also need the crossmember from a turbo car.
irl your looking @ 10 hrs of pure mechanical work just getting the old on out and new one in and redoing the exhaust... then the fun part running around 50 hrs of work to do the wiring

rs25.com has a lot of good info on swaps

[RS22b]

Well there are many things to consider when doing such a swap.

I would recommend that you keep and use your stock AC and Alt. Use the power steering pump, resorvoir and lines from the new motorset. However, with the new motor from a RHD car the lines might not work correctly on your stock steering rack. Therefore you will need to source a set of LHD steering lines. That should basically be it on the mechanicals besides the turbo x-member mentioned above.

The wiring is a different story though. You will want to basically cut out JUST the motor section of your stock harness and mate up the new motor section into your stock harness. This way all of your stock gauges, cc and all will work as designed for your car.

Hope this helps.

_billy

[chuckthefuk]

Thats a serious engine to just drop in with a stock BH driveline.

Its recommended to swap to Sti:
-Hubs
-Axles
-Drive shaft
-Rear Diff R160/R180 LSD
-Aluminum Control Arms
-etc..

and I am not sure about the cluster.. You may need to have the original Sti cluster that can handle the ecu & immobilizer.

It may be cheaper to purchase a lower version sti motor. v.4/v.5 are reasonably priced around $6-8 for the complete swap (front to back - engine to driveline)

Hope this helps.
-Chuck

[rougeben83]

engine is dbw, you'll need the matching pedal box (or at least the accelerator pedal) because your car is currently cable operated.

You can make do with the transmission you have right now if you drive it easy. You would need an uprated clutch. If you're going to be using the 5spd included with the motorset then that might be better, but you still have to remember transmissions are the weak point on any turbo subaru, even one on stock power levels. Make sure the gearbox you'll be putting in has the same gear ratio as the rear end you'll be putting in as well (hence my suggestion to go with the dual-range you have right now). I'm almost positive the dual range manual still uses the same length drive shaft as other subaru 5 spds. 6spds need an automatic driveshaft.

You don't need to change hubs, you don't need to change axles either unless you plan to change to 5x114 hubs and 6spd STi gearbox. You'll need the matching brembo brakes and new wheels if that's the case.

You need a LHD turbo crossmember, you can adapt your current steering lines with the ps lines on the RHD motor to make it work.

You can reuse your current steering rack.

You don't need to change control arms, even if you use a GD turbo crossmember you can just shim the front mounting points on the xmember where your current control arms bolt up to.

You don't need to change clusters, the wiring merge will keep all its functionality. You can change to an STi cluster, but its even more wiring.

You'll reuse most of your A/C lines as they are not on the engine itself, but run around the engine compartment.

You'll lose cruise control; the cruise control units are different (positive press vs. vacuum) on turbo and n/a motors and the ECU and wiring harnesses use different signals to make for a clean swap.

[chuckthefuk]

1) You don't need to change hubs, you don't need to change axles either unless you plan to change to 5x114 hubs and 6spd STi gearbox. You'll need the matching brembo brakes and new wheels if that's the case.

2)You don't need to change control arms, even if you use a GD turbo crossmember you can just shim the front mounting points on the xmember where your current control arms bolt up to.

1)
04 STi's came with 5x100 and if you plan on running a R180 (from 6MT or 5MT-RA) differential then 100% you need sti axles with hubs.

If you choose to run a R160 yes, you can use your stock diff, axles, and hubs,, but they wont last.. Not at +200WHP

You can use JDM STi/USDM WRX R160 with your stock hubs/axles but again upgrading to sti axles will prolong the life of your driveline.

Oh an Open Diffs tend to explode with boost.

2)
Again not the best option if your dropping in a hefty motor like an EJ25 WRC edition. There are many weak points in the car and controls arms tend to bend under heavy load. But hey its up to you and how much money you want to spend.

Good luck

- Chuck

[rougeben83]

1) You don't need to change hubs, you don't need to change axles either unless you plan to change to 5x114 hubs and 6spd STi gearbox. You'll need the matching brembo brakes and new wheels if that's the case.

2)You don't need to change control arms, even if you use a GD turbo crossmember you can just shim the front mounting points on the xmember where your current control arms bolt up to.

1)
04 STi's came with 5x100 and if you plan on running a R180 (from 6MT or 5MT-RA) differential then 100% you need sti axles with hubs.

If you choose to run a R160 yes, you can use your stock diff, axles, and hubs,, but they wont last.. Not at +200WHP

You can use JDM STi/USDM WRX R160 with your stock hubs/axles but again upgrading to sti axles will prolong the life of your driveline.

Oh an Open Diffs tend to explode with boost.

2)
Again not the best option if your dropping in a hefty motor like an EJ25 WRC edition. There are many weak points in the car and controls arms tend to bend under heavy load. But hey its up to you and how much money you want to spend.

Good luck

- Chuck

you can use an r160 with the 6spd, you just need a shop to match the ring and pinion gear; some shops already sell these converted R160 rear diffs in fact because plenty of people (WRX'ers) have gone this route. The limiting factor to the R180 is you have to convert EVERYTHING in the driveline thats connected to it (rear axles, rear hubs, rear brakes), just to make it work, and even then there aren't that significant gains to be had by going to the R180 (unless it helps you sleep at night that you have a 180 instead of a regular 160). Also, the RA does not use a R180, its still a R160.

Considering there's not much difference between the sti 5x100 hubs and every other subaru 5x100 hub, youre just wasting your money. The reason subaru went to 5x114.3 on the newer sti's in the first place is for the stronger hub design. There are aftermarket options from WL and 6gun for upgraded hubs while still retaining the 5x100 bolt pattern, but that's another story.

Subaru doesn't field ej25's in WRC; it's against the rule (2.0l displacement and under). I'm going on the assumption that this WRC is just some special trim level that isn't all that different from the other ej255/7's that subaru is currently producing.

On the control arms, it's not absolutely important that he change to the aluminum ones, especially if this is still going to be used on the street. Actually, your very comment is why some people prefer the steel arms on a street driven car because in an accident, the arms will absorb the energy instead of transferring it to more expensive/permanent parts of the car. Aluminum control arms provide slightly better response due to the stiffness of the material and stiffer rear control arm mounts plus 1-2lb difference in weight, but the main reason to get them is for the additional 20mm in front track and the RA/05+ STi design that offers an additional ~+2deg caster. It's a nice thing to have but its not absolutely crucial for a swap; it can be readily added on later if he so chooses.

Finally, on the transmission comment, what kind of diff you have has less bearing on the durability of the transmission vs. the overall design of the transmission. GC WRX and STi 5spd transmissions were actually the same in design as the ones used on every manual n/a car that subaru sold during that time period. Only the RA/RA-R's and other limited-edition models received cryotreating and other treatments to the gears to help with durability. There are also plenty of lightly modified USDM WRX's that have broken the supposedly stronger 03+ gearbox (with the wider 1-2 RA gears). On the other hand, my car's still running in spite of having the supposedly exploding open diffs, all the while making more power than an STi (this is the first I've heard of open diffs exploding with too much hp btw) , and I know of a few other people that have used their stock transmissions to get their swapped power to the wheels. Conversely, I know of quite a few people that have grenaded their supposedly bulletproof built/cryotreated/specialsauce transmissions. The notion that having an n/a transmission automatically defaults to a grenaded transmission is silly in my book - as I have heard from a few respected subaru shops, it really boils down to how you drive.

In short, I suggest you don't just start throwing parts at a car just because they came from a "superior" trim level of car. If you do enough research you'll know what parts to buy to get the performance you intended and you'll not just save yourself money but end up getting more value out of the parts you've spent money on as well...

[chuckthefuk]

I never said anything about blowing any transmission components or cryotreating internals I was just saying that REAR open diffs tend to blow under boost. Not once did i mention the diff in the transmision itself.

If you run a 6MT with a R160 thats fine but most WRX owners have LSD rear diffs not OPEN diffs..

Meh whatever I am going for a beer.

-Chuck

[rougeben83]

I never said anything about blowing any transmission components or cryotreating internals I was just saying that REAR open diffs tend to blow under boost. Not once did i mention the diff in the transmision itself.

If you run a 6MT with a R160 thats fine but most WRX owners have LSD rear diffs not OPEN diffs..

Meh whatever I am going for a beer.

-Chuck

If you read on NASIOC technical, you'll find plenty of WRX owner wearing out their VLSD's under moderately heavy use as well. Actually, what happens is that the VLSD reverts back to an open diff. A more affordable solution is to take the R160 and have a SureTrak/Cusco/other mnftr. clutch-type LSD put into it; the unit itself costs about another $700-800USD and you can use your current R160.

Again, take into consideration what this car will be used for; he's not building something to compete at time-attack. I can easily reel off a whole bunch of aftermarket components that he can put in the car while it's being swapped, since these pieces will be more easily accesible/already out of car and engine anyway.

What I'm trying to do is give him a basic parts lists without sacrifing the reliability of the car or his budget.

[subba]

I was just saying that REAR open diffs tend to blow under boost.
/Endorsed, i know first hand, i blew my diff after my swap...after i kinda sorta fixed my diff, my N/A axels broke, (a ring on the part that connects to the diff)

[danci1973]

Wow, a lot of good info there!

I'm not going for 'ultimate street-racing, 2 fast 2 furious' kind of car. I get my adrenalin rush racing motorcycles on track, but I'm quite easy going in regular traffic.

It's just that my current EJ25 is in need of some costly repairs (head gaskets, maybe even more internals - there is some knocking/ticking noise) and this E-Bay engine is only two years old and comes with almost everything (turbo, intercooler, wiring loom, flywheel/clutch, alternator, power steering pump, ECU with matching coded key) so I thought that maybe such a swap could turn out to be a good option.



engine is dbw, you'll need the matching pedal box (or at least the accelerator pedal) because your car is currently cable operated.

DBW as in 'drive-by-wire'? I guess I could get the pedal box or the accelerator pedal with the engine for a little extra.



You need a LHD turbo crossmember, you can adapt your current steering lines with the ps lines on the RHD motor to make it work.

What exactly is a 'crossmember' (having some language trouble here)?



You'll lose cruise control; the cruise control units are different (positive press vs. vacuum) on turbo and n/a motors and the ECU and wiring harnesses use different signals to make for a clean swap.

Shouldn't DBW take care of that?

Thanks for all the help so far, D.

[chuckthefuk]

You'll lose cruise control; the cruise control units are different (positive press vs. vacuum) on turbo and n/a motors and the ECU and wiring harnesses use different signals to make for a clean swap.

Shouldn't DBW take care of that?



Your merging a DBW harness with a Cable drivin' harness... Only the engine + cluster + pedals are affected by DBW the interior is still legacy. Don't quote me but If you can find the pinouts for the DBW harness you maybe able to reconnect the orginal DBW cruise control stock to the DBW harness.

But this is just an just an assumption.

I have seen some legacy guys pull out the entire body harness and replace it with impreza equivalent, but this is more money and more work.. :-/

Good luck
-Chuck

[jey]

The crossmember is the piece that the engine sits on, and connects to the frame below the engine. I think some people call it the subframe.

[danci1973]

The crossmember is the piece that the engine sits on, and connects to the frame below the engine. I think some people call it the subframe.
That's kinda what I thought, but I didn't know these are engine specific...

So I would need a crossmember / subframe from a BE/BH Legacy that was originally equipped with the EJ25 Turbo (more specifically EJ255)? That could be tough to find...

D.

[Grafton]

from a turbo legacy or wrx/sti the ones from an impreza will need some spacers for the control arm

[jg09]

Okay, so I have a few questions here, also. Since I'm going to STi-swap my BH, too. My plans are slightly different, though, since I think I'm going to be running a 5 spd. rather than 6 spd. I'll be staying at stock boost levels for a long time and won't be consistently pushing the car hard, so I'm not concerned. Mainly, I want to stay away from the hassle of wiring up DCCD.

Anywho, back to my question. My main concern with the swap, mechanically speaking (not electrically), is the fuel supply. Will my stock fuel lines running to the motor be in the proper location? Also, what should I run for a fuel pump? The EJ257 is going to suck fuel like none other compared to the EJ25 it had.

On the electronic note, though, what do people suggest for engine management in my BH? The stock computer can't really be tweaked much. If I get the STi's computer, how will it fare with all the BH electronics? Will having a 5MT confuse things?

[Huffer]

Anywho, back to my question. My main concern with the swap, mechanically speaking (not electrically), is the fuel supply. Will my stock fuel lines running to the motor be in the proper location? Also, what should I run for a fuel pump? The EJ257 is going to suck fuel like none other compared to the EJ25 it had.

On the electronic note, though, what do people suggest for engine management in my BH? The stock computer can't really be tweaked much. If I get the STi's computer, how will it fare with all the BH electronics? Will having a 5MT confuse things?

Fuel lines aren't an issue. Your fuel pump will be fine, unless you start upping the boost in which case you'll need a Walbro 255lph pump. Easy drop in.

ECU - wire in the STi ECU to handle all your engine management. It won't be an issue, if it's done right.

Your combination of items isn't unrealistic, nor is it the first of it's kind either, so there should be few teething problems.

[rougeben83]

Okay, so I have a few questions here, also. Since I'm going to STi-swap my BH, too. My plans are slightly different, though, since I think I'm going to be running a 5 spd. rather than 6 spd. I'll be staying at stock boost levels for a long time and won't be consistently pushing the car hard, so I'm not concerned. Mainly, I want to stay away from the hassle of wiring up DCCD.

Anywho, back to my question. My main concern with the swap, mechanically speaking (not electrically), is the fuel supply. Will my stock fuel lines running to the motor be in the proper location? Also, what should I run for a fuel pump? The EJ257 is going to suck fuel like none other compared to the EJ25 it had.

On the electronic note, though, what do people suggest for engine management in my BH? The stock computer can't really be tweaked much. If I get the STi's computer, how will it fare with all the BH electronics? Will having a 5MT confuse things?

Your fuel lines are fine. You need the STi fuel pump (cheaper than a walbro, I have one, got it for $30 shipped). You also need the fuel pump control module thats in the trunk. The wiring harness you need from the donor car is the complete harness from the front engine, to the rear in the trunk where the FPC is. You can forgo the FPC (ask BigLooga), but the engine will have some drivability issues when youre just cruising around.

When you swap a subaru, you use the ECU of the new engine. Merging the STI harness and your stock harness is what will make your new engine work with the rest of the car. Cheapest and most popular EM is Opensource tuning; the turbo ECU's have already been been hacked so tuners can go into the ROM and change the mapping in there. Of course AP and UTEC are other popular options if you want to spend the $$$.

No, it doesn't matter what transmission you use. You can use a 6spd without the DCCD, the center diff will still work like a mechanical diff.

[chuckthefuk]

Hydra Nemesis is plug and play for EJ series motors. Comes with base tune but not recommended ... tuning is not cheap.. I hope your ready for headaches and lack of funds.

Merging the harness is over 100 hours.. East Coast Swappers can merge your harness for $500 or so.

I suggest you do not use your stock fuel pump and go with an STi spec or Walbro 255 lph @ under $100 shipped.

Fuel lines are straight forward plug and play.. Unless you want something stronger but not necessary.

Its true you can use any 5MT with any EJ series motor but your going to have to match your Final drive .. Also using stock legacy 5MT are very weak when boosted..

if your Final drive is 4.11 then you must match your tranny and your rear diff to the same spec.

Example 4.11 legacy tranny matched with a R160 4.44 rear diff will not work.. but an R160 4.11 will.

Depending on the donor car or source of parts you can get a r160 w/ lsd and same goes with the tranny

IMHO an EJ257 is extreme and lots-o-$$$ when you can easily get a full JDM Sti EJ20 version 4/5/etc.. complete swap (parts) for under $6000 and no DCCD. Including ecu/full harness/axles/rear diff/driveshaft

Its all about your power goals.. JDM STi EJ20's are rated at 280 BHP and USDM EJ257 are rated at 300 BHP..

Obviously the EJ257 is capable of higher HP goals but replacing blocks/heads/pistons/cams etc.. are costly.. JDM engines are a dime a dozen.

NOTE: Japan does not produce the EJ257 that is only a USDM engine. Japan uses EJ20* motors.. Depending on the version Wrx or STi you can get 220 BHP - 280 BHP..

Choice is yours..
-Chuck

[jg09]

Hmmm...a lot to think about right there. For only 20 hp less, I can live with a JDM STi 2.0 ver. 5 motor easily. The next question I have is about actually getting one. I've looked around and cannot seem to find a complete motor/trans/ecu/rear diff. Most places I come to are people selling 2.0 short blocks. Any ideas as to where I can get the complete package?

[rougeben83]

Hmmm...a lot to think about right there. For only 20 hp less, I can live with a JDM STi 2.0 ver. 5 motor easily. The next question I have is about actually getting one. I've looked around and cannot seem to find a complete motor/trans/ecu/rear diff. Most places I come to are people selling 2.0 short blocks. Any ideas as to where I can get the complete package?

Get a shop to do it, or, piece it together yourself. Do you have emissions inspection in your state? JDM engines tend to not pass those because they don't have the OBDII emissions stuff USDM cars need (I'm not going to talking about the legality of the swap either).

[jg09]

WA has a "once saved, always saved" type of emissions policy, so I'm in the clear there. I'd like to be able to do the install myself and then have someone do the wiring and tie up the odds and ends. Preferably, I'd like to order the big parts through a shop. A lot of local repair shops in this area don't like to do that kind of thing, though. You order parts through them and they install them. I'll look into that, though. There are a few custom shops around here, but I don't know if they do Subarus.

[Huffer]

Contact Rallitek... they're close by, or SubySolutions (IIRC they are the same outfit).

[jg09]

I think I found my baby!

http://www.tokyomotorimports.com/engine ... n%205.html (http://www.tokyomotorimports.com/engine/86/STi%20EJ20t%20Version%205.html)

[rougeben83]

I think I found my baby!

http://www.tokyomotorimports.com/engine ... n%205.html (http://www.tokyomotorimports.com/engine/86/STi%20EJ20t%20Version%205.html)

Ok, but if you're going the JDM route, I suggest you go to NASIOC tech forums and read up on what it takes to get a JDM swap in your car. There's some differences to a regular swap that you have to be aware of, and make decisions about (off the top of my head, the AVCS, which may or may not be more trouble for you to install than its worth). You'll also have a couple of more codes that will need to be turned off (due to JDM engines lacking things like EGR and stuff) and most importantly a reflash of the ECU to run US gas, as all of subaru's JDM engines are tuned to run a higher octane than whats available in the US.

[chuckthefuk]

I think I found my baby!

http://www.tokyomotorimports.com/engine ... n%205.html (http://www.tokyomotorimports.com/engine/86/STi%20EJ20t%20Version%205.html)

Ok, but if you're going the JDM route, I suggest you go to NASIOC tech forums and read up on what it takes to get a JDM swap in your car. There's some differences to a regular swap that you have to be aware of, and make decisions about (off the top of my head, the AVCS, which may or may not be more trouble for you to install than its worth). You'll also have a couple of more codes that will need to be turned off (due to JDM engines lacking things like EGR and stuff) and most importantly a reflash of the ECU to run US gas, as all of subaru's JDM engines are tuned to run a higher octane than whats available in the US.

IIRC. JDM AVCS is only available in version 6-9 so if hes choosing version 4/5 your in the clear.

Assuming hes still going the EMS route then pump gas isn't a problem since the EMS will fix this same goes with EGR since you just buy the block off plate :-D


And to add tokyomotorimports include the following:
Motor
Transmission
ECU
Distributor
Alternator
Complete Intake&Exhaust Manifold
Engine Wiring Harness
All required Cables
Intercooler
Turbo

I stress the importance of upgrading axles and rear diff. 200+ HP will chew through your stock legacy parts.

-Chuck

[rougeben83]

I stress the importance of upgrading axles and rear diff. 200+ HP will chew through your stock legacy parts.

-Chuck

Again, what are you basing this information from? (subba does not count, he welded his rear diff and that how he ended up with his current problems). I have 350+bhp going through the stock axles and rear diff and theyre still fine; this is after a few times launching the car as well. A lot of shops that do swaps don't mention upgrading these parts as well because they're unnecessary.

Moreover, what axles are you going to change to? WRX axles shafts are nearly identical, like most subaru 5speeds. The only axles that differ a lot are the 6spd axles and you can't use them with a 5spd nor a R160 diff. The other option is to go custom (JoeT's Legacy has a set of custom axles running through his 6speed).

If you drive like youre in FnF all the time, sure you may break an axle, but more likely you'll be breaking 2nd gear instead.

[chuckthefuk]

1) Again, what are you basing this information from? (subba does not count, he welded his rear diff and that how he ended up with his current problems).

2) A lot of shops that do swaps don't mention upgrading these parts as well because they're unnecessary.

3) Moreover, what axles are you going to change to? WRX axles shafts are nearly identical, like most subaru 5speeds.

4) The only axles that differ a lot are the 6spd axles and you can't use them with a 5spd nor a R160 diff. The other option is to go custom (JoeT's Legacy has a set of custom axles running through his 6speed).

5) If you drive like youre in FnF all the time, sure you may break an axle, but more likely you'll be breaking 2nd gear instead.
----

1) I'v seen this in person, open diffs explode during heavy launches and extreme cornering. I am not saying this is going to happen I am just putting it out there.

2) This is 50/50 it all depends on what the customer is asking from the shop. Most engine importers or clip importers will offer the rear diff / drive shaft and axles. For one your changing your Final drive depending on the transmission that is chosen.

3) USDM WRX shafts are not even close to stock legacy shafts. JDM Sti shafts are identical to USDM Wrx shafts.

4) Yes you can use 6MT rear shafts with a 5MT you just need a R180, 04 STi hubs (5x100) and a little re-working of the driveshaft.

5) Doubtful but I am sure it happens.

Regardless no you do not need a rear diff for the swap but it will help in the end.
-Chuck

[99gtlimited]

hey i suggest you check these guys out for a local motor source. they do tons of JDM motor imports for all kinds of cars.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/pts/999260010.html

[danci1973]

OMG, I cannot believe I didn't notice the mistake before - of course I'm not talking about WRC engine, but an EJ255 from a WRX! :oops:

I hope this didn't cause too much confusion and that the information is still valid.

D.

PS: The engine I was looking at was apparently sold, so I'm back to square one - but now I wonder, which of the turbo engines would make for the easiest and most straight-forward swap to BH?

[jg09]

PS: The engine I was looking at was apparently sold, so I'm back to square one - but now I wonder, which of the turbo engines would make for the easiest and most straight-forward swap to BH?

The answer isn't too far away...

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=12887 (https://sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=12887)