copper head gaskets

[Airgne]

will copper head gaskets work on subaru engine? i know they are better than reg gaskets(used them on ever motor until came to subaru). also what thickness would be good for a supercharged frankenstein build?

[Airgne]

OI! anyone?

[Piddster]

What are your goals with this motor? Many people make serious power using Cometic gaskets. If you look around you can get them for $75.

[Airgne]

not looking for serious power, just about 300wtq. i have had very good luck with copper gaskets. ive never had a head gasket go bad after going copper. just wondering if the copper would react bad to the scooby motor.

its kind of goin to be an expariment.

[Huffer]

What other kind of blocks have you used copper gaskets on?
The Subaru engines tend to be iron blocks w/ alloy heads. Not sure if heat would create an undesirable metallurgical reaction - but the stock HGs and the Cometic ones are multi-layer steel.

[Airgne]

ols school iron blocks and heads(chevy, ford, amc), sr20det block and heads, new school aluminium blocks and heads(chevy,ford). the weakness in the multi-layer head is the fact that they are multi-layer.

[Piddster]

If you make enough power for the Cometic gasket to fail due to cylinder pressure, you will have way more issues to deal with than a copper vs. MLS debate. I do not foresee you splurging on a shortblock worth $5k in parts and sleeving. Even then, the MLS gaskets are working fine.

[Airgne]

what gaskets do you recommed? ej22t block, with phaseII ej25 heads.

[Piddster]

When i finally get around to swapping the heads on my motor after I finally get my wrecked car completely stripped, I'll be using the .051" 98mm bore cometics. The stock EJ22T headgasket is .059" thick. I'll be using phase 1 DOHC 2.5 heads. I can't remember what the combustion chamber size is on the phase 2 heads. I would have liked to go thinner but the pistons on a 22T protrude out of the deck by .015-.018" or so at TDC. The EJ22T headgaskets are pretty tough for what they are. I was running over 26psi out of a 2871R with them. They are just a bit thick. You might have a tough time getting over 8.0:1 compression any way you look at it.

I say get the cometics and call it a day.

[Airgne]

i was hoping to get 8.0:1. ill have to find out the bore on the phaseII heads.

[Piddster]

On my phase 1 heads, I gain volume in the combustion chambers, but take some back with the wiseco pistons. The slightly thinner gasket will help.


I don't know how accurate this data is, but it has been around for a long time. http://wac.addr.com/auto/obs/turbo/ejcalcs.html

[Airgne]

thanx for the info. next i need to see what crank, rods, and pistons i will be useing.

[rougeben83]

What other kind of blocks have you used copper gaskets on?
The Subaru engines tend to be iron blocks w/ alloy heads. Not sure if heat would create an undesirable metallurgical reaction - but the stock HGs and the Cometic ones are multi-layer steel.

I wish they were made of iron, then maybe the bottomend wouldn't punch holes in the block when you put just a little too much boost into them :twisted:

Subby blocks are aluminum. People have had good experience using the STi headgaskets on ej25x blocks. They're multilayered metal gaskets IIRC. Not sure about its thickness though.

[subba]

which supercharger you thinking of using? most superchargers would run efficiently with a slightly high compression with EM, most factory turbo motors are running between 9:0 to 8:0

What engine management you looking at using?

[Airgne]

i will be going with the raptor supercharger kit. from there i will be voiding my warranty on it right away do boosting the max out if the kit 14psi. i will have to retune the piggy back ecu that comes with the kit, but i dont think that will be to hard.

[subba]

you stole my build btw lol

I am not sure if the EJ25t internals will work with the 22t shortblock, but as a budget build a Ej25crank + rods with maybe wesico pistons + rings and to be on the safe side use ACL or cosworth bearing and you should have a strong combo, i sorta got the idea that Aftermarket cams will make a diffrence but not a huge one when compared to the OEM turbo ones. i didnt really push the build because i dont understand the whole oil squirter thing.

[impreza_GC8]

I have a similar build but the opposite of you guys. I have an EJ25 block with EJ22T crank/rods and newer flat-top EJ25 pistons. The EJ22T internal bits help to destroke and "decompress" the motor to 2.4L and 8.2:1 CR. I am using 1996 EJ25 heads with hydraulic lash adjusters.
Also, I have heard of people using the STI head gaskets on their EJ25 builds.

[Piddster]

you stole my build btw lol

I am not sure if the EJ25t internals will work with the 22t shortblock, but as a budget build a Ej25crank + rods with maybe wesico pistons + rings and to be on the safe side use ACL or cosworth bearing and you should have a strong combo, i sorta got the idea that Aftermarket cams will make a diffrence but not a huge one when compared to the OEM turbo ones. i didnt really push the build because i dont understand the whole oil squirter thing.


EJ25* pistons will not work. The 2.2 bore is 98mm and the 25 bore is larger. Going 1mm over in the 22T block is acceptable, but that is the limit. If someone is going into a shortblock, I sugegst at least sourcing some STi rods. The stud and nut design of the older rods is significantly weaker than the newer bolted cap design. Many people push upwards of 500whp with the stock STi rods and drop-in pistons. Of course, tuning is everything. One gentleman on the BBS has trashed several 22T blocks with less than 300whp from connecting rods letting go.

As far as bearings go, I tell everyone to call Calico for bearings. They use Clevite and ACL bearings for a base and put their very nice coating on them. Cobb sold those bearings as their "race" version for a significant markup. In my first go around with my motor I used Clevite's straight-up and they worked just fine.



As a side note, I was sourcing my oil pressure signal from my turbo feed, and the squirters would kick in just after about 60psi.

[subba]

EJ25* pistons will not work. The 2.2 bore is 98mm and the 25 bore is larger. Going 1mm over in the 22T block is acceptable, but that is the limit.

I know thats why i said get a EJ25T crank, rods & ACL bearings then contact weisco for pistons+rings :p, i know the EJ22t internals is str8 rubbish.
(i dont know if the crank would work either but if the whole internals is going to be changed i dont see why not.)

[Piddster]

Gotcha.

The 22T crank is fine. Its just a little balancing act of journal sizes if you are going to use different rods.

[Airgne]

i was thinking of using K1 rods, weisco pistions .020 over and rings.

what would you recommend for this build? im open, since i have never done a subaru/boxer motor build.

[rougeben83]

i was thinking of using K1 rods, weisco pistions .020 over and rings.

what would you recommend for this build? im open, since i have never done a subaru/boxer motor build.
STi shortblock. It'll probably cost you that much for the bottom end parts alone...

[Piddster]

STi shortblock. It'll probably cost you that much for the bottom end parts alone...

Saying "probably" means you haven't done the research. Basing an argument off of an assumption is a fallacy.


One can buy an EJ257 shortblock for about $1600, but you still need to replace the pistons if you do not want a time bomb. They all loose a ringland, and its only a matter of time. Pistons and rods for an EJ22T are $800, unless you are doing it wrong. A bore, hot tank, and hone should not cost more than $200, and that is even on the high end. $200 worth of gaskets, $160 for awesome bearings, and you're set.


I've been running a 22T shortblock with Eagles and wiseco's for quite some time and decent abuse. The K1's, along with others, look identical along with the specs. My conclusion is that they are from the same supplier as Eagle and Scat.



Now, if you want to build the baller Subaru 4 cylinder, that is another ballgame entirely. $1500 for sleeving, $800 rods (Pauter Machine), $800 pistons (CP), $1500 crank (or more), plus little things like studs, bearings, pumps, etc, you'll have yourself a bomb-proof 2.7L monster. Most people aren't in it like that though.

[Airgne]

ej22t stock crank ok? i will be using ARP studs and bolts. .020 or .040 over on the pistons?

i will be spending most of my money on cams/heads made for a supercharger. everything internal will be getting a dry film coating.

[Piddster]

^ Unless you are trying to make over 700hp, the crank is fine, and identical to any phase 1 2.2 crank. Start at .020 over pistons. That is more than enough material to clean up the cylinders unless something major was wrong. The .040 over pistons is for when someone really tears it up.

You could have the machine shop give the crank a quick polish while they are at it. That'll never hurt.


Its pretty obvious that you have been through a few motors, so you probably know that you should check your oil clearances while you are in the assembly stage. Checking the mains with plastigauge is a pain, but good for piece of mind. Checking the rod bearing clearances is really easy though as it is done with the crank laying on the bench.

[Airgne]

im still in the phase of trying to get a ej22t block. this thread is turing into a build thread. once i get the parts together i will post pics.

was the 1st gen ej22 n/a block a closed deck block?

[Piddster]

im still in the phase of trying to get a ej22t block. this thread is turing into a build thread. once i get the parts together i will post pics.

was the 1st gen ej22 n/a block a closed deck block?



No, it was open deck like the rest. I have my old one laying around if you want pics.

A closed deck block can be identified by crosshatching in various places on the exterior of the block.

[Airgne]

you have a ej22t or ej22 n/a block lying around?

[rougeben83]

STi shortblock. It'll probably cost you that much for the bottom end parts alone...

Saying "probably" means you haven't done the research. Basing an argument off of an assumption is a fallacy.


One can buy an EJ257 shortblock for about $1600, but you still need to replace the pistons if you do not want a time bomb. They all loose a ringland, and its only a matter of time. Pistons and rods for an EJ22T are $800, unless you are doing it wrong. A bore, hot tank, and hone should not cost more than $200, and that is even on the high end. $200 worth of gaskets, $160 for awesome bearings, and you're set.


I was under the impression that thats the rings and piston only become a problem if you're running high boost. For his SC setup which probably won't make as much boost as a turbo, wouldn't the stock rings and pistons be fine? :smt017

[subba]

honestly, its best to upgrade the internals on a 1994 engine, wear and tear is a beach, and bearing is most likey where the attention is, turbos give power aroung 3k RPM remember if a 14psi supercharger is giving boost, it starts at idle.

[Piddster]

You guys are right in that goals should dictate what is done to the motor. Good tuning can make a 22T go a fair distance, and 300chp is definitely fine. Depending on what the cylinders are like, a necessary overbore should be the determining factor for aftermarket pistons or not. I'm not aware of any cast oversized pistons for that motor.


A guy from the twin cites here was making almost 300whp on a stock 22T bottom end. Tuning is what made it last. He had Jorge from P&L do the tuning, and it held up for quite some time. If staying with the supercharger, the stock rods are most likely fine. It's all about where you want to end up.

[Reason]

I'm being lazy not reading all of the *cough*BS*cough* but have you looked into Cosworth gaskets? What I read of them they are pretty sweet.