brake upgrades for a DD

[ScaryFatKidGT]

First-I have goodrich SS brake lines and motul RBF600 on the way here

Second-I would like to know if I should go with hawk HPS or HP+ pads? Would HP+ pads be to noisy/harsh for a DD and is there any other pads you guys would recomend for better than OEM stoping power?

Third-My rotors are slightly warped/have brake deposite build up on them and instead of just getting them resurfaced id like to upgrade to some better/lighter ones what are my options? I would like cross drilled or solid but I dont want the increased pad ware of slotted rotors. Is there any OEM ones I can swap for?

I dont have $500+ to spend on calipers so thoughs are staying stock for now but are wrx 4 pots the same as STi 4 pots and will they both fit on the fronts?

Fourth-I would like to remove/swap my brake portioning valve for a more 50/50 split
Does anyone know what the OEM split is?

Fifth-other stuf i have read about...how do these increase performance are they worth it and where do you get them?

master cylinder support brace
larger brake booster/Single Stage booster from an SVX
Larger Master cylinder/SVX Master cylinder

[KAG]

I would like to know if I should go with hawk HPS or HP+ pads? Would HP+ pads be to noisy/harsh for a DD and is there any other pads you guys would recomend for better than OEM stoping power?
HPS pads will do just fine as a daily driver. If you don't mind the added noise then you can step up to the HP+ which have a higher friction coefficient when compared to the HPS.


My rotors are slightly warped/have brake deposite build up on them and instead of just getting them resurfaced id like to upgrade to some better/lighter ones what are my options? I would like cross drilled or solid but I dont want the increased pad ware of slotted rotors. Is there any OEM ones I can swap for?
I think you should just have your rotors resurfaced. Won't cost much at all and they'll perform the same if not better with a smoother surface. If you feel you need new ones, Brembo blanks are the way to go.

Better/lighter as in what? Unless you're using pads from the 1930's, cross-drilled or slotted rotors wont do anything for you except increase the pad wear which you're aware of. Lighter rotors are two-piece rotors and cost a very pretty penny. Plus, I don't think they make them in anything smaller than the WRX (11.4in) size.


I dont have $500+ to spend on calipers so thoughs are staying stock for now but are wrx 4 pots the same as STi 4 pots and will they both fit on the fronts?
WRX 4-pots are made by FHI (Fuji Heavy Industries). They are NOT the same as the STi Brembo's if that's what you're referring to. The FHI 4-pots use smaller rotors than the Brembo's and can fit under smaller wheels a lot easier.

Both will bolt on to the front with no issues as long as you have the correct wheels to fit them.


Fourth-I would like to remove/swap my brake portioning valve for a more 50/50 split
Does anyone know what the OEM split is?

Fifth-other stuf i have read about...how do these increase performance are they worth it and where do you get them?

master cylinder support brace
larger brake booster/Single Stage booster from an SVX
Larger Master cylinder/SVX Master cylinder
You said this is a daily driver? My opinion would be to not even worry about any of that extra stuff until you upgrade the calipers and/or start to track the car. I think the OEM split is something like 80/20. In other words, front brakes will do 80% of the braking and rear brakes will do 20% of the braking.

Good luck and remember to talk to Reason if you want to buy anything :smt023

Kyle

[ScaryFatKidGT]

k thx alot that will help alot just a few more questions
so the only downside with the HP+ pads is noise and minor dust. they still work fine cold and every thing?
and how do the carbotechs stand against hawks?

Better as in higher heat disapating ability(does cross drilling help or hurt this?) and stoping power. Lighter for less rotational mass but for lighter rotors I Could go with 2 piece rotors but its not worth it unless I'm guna get a big brake kit with alot larger rotors and new calipers or something


and I would still really like to get rid of that 80/20 brake split for gravel/snow braking and rally-cross. Will something as simple as this russle one do? I could still set it to the full 60% to be safe and a 60/40 seems alot better than 80/20

http://www.boxer4racing.com/Brakes.htm# ... ccessories (http://www.boxer4racing.com/Brakes.htm#Brake%20Accessories)

[rougeben83]

hp+ pads are noisier, you need to put a little more heat into them than the hps to get their performance. They're not really a good track pad for the weight of a subaru really either (most WRX owners will fade these pads even under moderate track conditions). For the extra money, I don't think they're worth it. You can transfer more brake bias to the rear by putting a pad with more bite in the back (like an axxis ultimate) and/or changing to a larger rotor ala H6 rear brake upgrade. Also look into Porterfield R4s, EBC red/yellow stuff (NOT green), Ferrodo 3000/2500 are also a good choice, but I'm not sure of their pad availability for most subarus.

Carbotech bobcats are the "street" pad line, they're like hps/hp+, but have a lot more positive reviews from what I've read. Carbotech Panthers (XP8,10,12 formulations) are the track pads.

xdrilling does nothing but look good, slotting has some minor advantages of maintaining a clean pad/rotor contact but it won't be that noticeable on a street car. You want to move heat away from the brakes? Get brake ducts. You want more heat capacity? Get larger rotors. More mass = more stuff to absorb heat. WRX 11.5" rotor/bracket upgrade is a step in the right direction for your BD.

2 piece rotors cost around $400 for WRX size vs $35 blanks from autozone. Go with the latter and save the money towards better pads.

Are you tracking your car? Then don't get RBF600, youre just wasting money. Valvoline syntec (or whatever theyre calling it now, synthetic DOT4 fluid) is almost as good (480F dry boiling point, 330+F wet , the latter being what you should be looking for on a DD) and cost $6/qt at local stores.

You don't need a larger master cylinder because youre not changing the piston diameters in your calipers. Brace is marginal improvement at best, won't hurt, but it may not do anything noticeable either.

You cant use a proportioning valve, your car, like a majority of subarus use a 2 stage system with 2 valves. 60/40 brake distribution wont work anyway, you'll end up just locking the rear brakes, all systems are front biased anyway because of weight transfer, take advantage of it. If you want to lock the rears because you want to pretend to be like Loeb in WRC, get a hydraulic ebrake...your center diff isn't going to like you though.

In summary, don't just make a long list of parts that you've heard other people use and think adding them all together will give you the best performance. Brakes are designed to work as a system. I suggest you figure out some things (your budget, level of difficulty in installing, your driving habits, what the car will be used for, etc) and do some research to figure out what is the best compromise for your needs and goals. Your list of questions span from a simple $200 pad/fluid/line upgrade to a $1000+ FHI 4/2 pot conversion and then some.

And stop making multiple threads about the same topic. :wink:

Finally, for a little bit of trivia, the FHI 4 pots are actually made by Sumitomo...it's a 2 decade old caliper design that has been used in a few Nissan cars of the late 80's and 90's (ie r32 skyline and 300zx turbos). If you need rebuild parts or pads, just say you need them for a 91 300zx turbo and it'll 99% the same except the pins.

[Okin DaVanh]

I wouldn't play with the brake bias either. I thought it was 90/10 split, but oh well. I think adjusting the level on weathered roads would be bad.

I use my car as a DD and will be completing my upgrade sometime this week. I have an L and got 4 GT Brembo blank rotors & GT calipers with upgraded pads and will be changing my fluid as well. I won't see the track just yet, but I do go on daytrips that involve alot of weight and distance.

[Huffer]

Hawk HPS pads, and OEM replacement rotors. Don't bother with slotted or drilled rotors.

4 pot brakes won't actually help you in your DD activities, they'll in fact hinder you due to the massive unsprung weight on the front end.

Better upgrade is the H6 rear brake + Hawk HPS pads in the back.

[ScaryFatKidGT]

ok im thinking-fluid, SS lines and hps or bobcat pads for sure and

If I get calipers im going with brembos or something other than FHI because of the weight of the FHI 4 pots but thats $1000 at least so thats waiting

few other things though
first what is this H6 rear brake up-grade? and how much would this shift my bias to the rear if at all? with stock front rotors and calipers and the same pads front and rear?

second where would I find aftermarket brakeducts?

third I am looking into 2 piece rotors because with one piece rotors the only way to get more cooling/heat abrobtion is to go bigger which causes alot more unsprung weight with 2 piece rotors you get more cooling than one piece rotors AND there lighter so u get both the benifits...at the expense of more money. But couldn't you then theoretically use pads intended for colder temp ranges without them lighting on fire because of the added cooling from the rotors?

and finaly if sloted rotors help a little and xdrilled do basicaly nothing why does every Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini and Corvette I have ever seen including the Z06 and ZR-1 have cross-drilled rotors? Just for looks? or does it have to do with them having 2 piece rotors?

[Huffer]

This is still a daily driver right? With a stock engine? So why do you keep going on about 2 piece rotors and 4pot brakes?

The H6 brake upgrade is a larger rear rotor from the Legacy Outback H6 - hence the "H6". Same type of upgrade as the front, you get new caliper brackets and larger rotors. Similar to getting super aggressive rear pads with pansy front pads.

You'll have to make your own brake ducts - not hard to do, just hard to do "right".

[rougeben83]

and finaly if sloted rotors help a little and xdrilled do basicaly nothing why does every Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini and Corvette I have ever seen including the Z06 and ZR-1 have cross-drilled rotors? Just for looks? or does it have to do with them having 2 piece rotors?

They look cool. What else? If you see any real race car, the most they will have are slots to maintain a clean contact surface. You can only buy the hub flanges for brake ducts the WRX ones will work - but you will need to find a way to route the tubing from your hub to the bumper, and find a way to mount the tube to the bumper.

FHI calipers weigh a couple of pounds LESS than the equivalent WRX caliper, so if you do the WRX front upgrade, theyre a little better in that respect. But the extra weight youre adding is not OMGHUGE at all, it'll be around 5lbs at each corner at best, as the rotors are going to be less than 1" larger in diameter with the same thickness and the bracket is just going to be a little bigger and you are still using THE SAME caliper. Now if you move up to the 05+LGT front brakes from your setup, THEN its a big difference because each caliper/rotor combo weighs 40lbs, vs the 25lbs of a WRX caliper/rotor.

And look, you HAVE to have more weight in your brakes if you want better fade resistance. You can't defy the laws of thermodynamics. If you're so worried about unsprung weight (have you even felt the difference an extra 5lbs does to the front of a daily driver? It's not that significant, but maybe my buttdyno's out of calibration), then don't make your brakes bigger at all because even those uber expensive 2 piece rotors WILL ADD WEIGHT; it may not be as much as a 1piece design but you're still putting more metal in there.

Look, what are you going to be using the car for? Are you even going to track it? If not, you're over thinking your brake uprade. Sure you'll have some kickass brakes you can brag about on the internet, but you couldve used the money you saved on something that better fit your needs to make your car more enjoyable. Figure out how much you have to spend, what you need the car for and go from there. I cannot emphasize this enough.

Furthermore, go out there (NASIOC is great for technical research) and do some reading on everything I have mentioned, and make up your own mind as to what will work best for YOUR car. I'm one of the belief that its better to teach a man to fish than to give him fish.

[ScaryFatKidGT]

This is still a daily driver right? With a stock engine? So why do you keep going on about 2 piece rotors and 4pot brakes?

The H6 brake upgrade is a larger rear rotor from the Legacy Outback H6 - hence the "H6". Same type of upgrade as the front, you get new caliper brackets and larger rotors. Similar to getting super aggressive rear pads with pansy front pads.

Thats what I thought the H6 ment. So what year of outback? and are only the rear rotors larger? the fronts are still the same as the GT? why did the H6 get better brakes is it that much heavier?

I keep bringing up the rotors because I keep hearing about people putting big brake kits or wrx brakes on there car and it drives like crap because of the added weight and I wana learn from there mistakes.

so the FHI 4 pots are lighter than wrx 4 pots? how much do the STi brembo calipers weight? there is like 50 people getting rid of theres on nasioc (and im getting some 17" wheels so they should fit)

and I keep bringing up the poropotioning valve because of what I red in 2 different issues of sport compact car. In one they put a brembo big brake kit on a acura rsx and it took longer to stop because it increased the front rotor size more than the rear moving the bias to the front instead of it being more even with the stock brembos. the stockers atually stoped it like 10 feet shorter on an average of 10 80-0 or 60-0 stops(cant remember) , but by the end the stock pads were melting

and in another issue a guy asked how to prepare his car to go into ralling and he was told to just get brake pads and remove the propotioning valve to achieve a near 50/50 braking split because that is what you need to stop faster on gravel and snow. and we have alot of snow here

[Huffer]

http://www.google.com/search?q=H6+upgra ... US266US266 (http://www.google.com/search?q=H6+upgrade&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS266US266)

[99gtlimited]

why all the worry about brakes for a DD, do you just drive the shit out of it or what???

oh and brembo blanks over oem blanks for me any day!!!

[deadlydave]

Hawk HPS pads, and OEM replacement rotors. Don't bother with slotted or drilled rotors.

4 pot brakes won't actually help you in your DD activities, they'll in fact hinder you due to the massive unsprung weight on the front end.

Better upgrade is the H6 rear brake + Hawk HPS pads in the back.

I'm here to help.

For a DD on a budget, just buy some HPS or HP+ pads and new rotors (if you need them, which you may not).
Maybe switch to the H6 rear caliper bracket and rotor. Check brake fluid regularly, bleed and flush once per year.

If you're feeling spunky, you can go for the 02-05 wrx front calipers and rotors. The 02-05 wrx front brakes and H6 rears were standard on my baja turbo, and the 'curb weight' is just about 3,600 pounds, so this combination will be more than enough for a BD.

EDIT: I just noticed you seem to be confused about which 4-pots were which. See below. The 'red' 4-pots have smaller pistons and less metal than the STi Brembos. Truth be told, i held an 02-05 wrx caliper/bracket and the red caliper/bracket in my hands and felt no discernable difference in weight. Sure, the reds have more metal, but it's aluminum.

The FHI 4-pots are either red or black/grey and say 'subaru' on the side. They take the stock 02-07 size WRX rotor.
The STi 4-pot brembos are gold and take a huge brembo rotor. Both of these options are expensive, front calipers alone for the Red 4-pots will run you over 500 bucks.

[Okin DaVanh]

You'll have to make your own brake ducts - not hard to do, just hard to do "right".


Thanks to Mr. Huff (again :smt002 ) for eminding me. I've done this w/2 previous cars of mine and I have a spare pair of E36 M3 brake ducts ............. somewhere around here. :roll:

I used (don't laugh, it worked) a dryer hose and a friend who works w/ HVAC made a light weight mini air duct for me. Helped out quit a bit on some highway trips.

[rougeben83]

I used (don't laugh, it worked) a dryer hose and a friend who works w/ HVAC made a light weight mini air duct for me. Helped out quit a bit on some highway trips.

I've seen Pat Olsen on NASIOC use that when he tracked his GT :) Lots of guys have used it as well, just don't be surprised if it doesn't hold up over time.

Here was what I was going to do until Quantum had a sale on their hub flanges... http://subaru-wrx-sti.com/web/MODS/brak ... ducts.html (http://subaru-wrx-sti.com/web/MODS/brakeducts/brakeducts.html)

[ScaryFatKidGT]

why all the worry about brakes for a DD, do you just drive the shit out of it or what???

oh and brembo blanks over oem blanks for me any day!!!

why? just wondering why are they that much better?

and yess i drive the shit out of it also I would like to start going to some casual track get-togethers and maybe auto-x but I wana know what my options are even if its guna bump me to the next class cuz I havent raced it yet

[Huffer]

Here's a tip then. Get some good brake pads, some new fluid, freshen your brakes and head to the first autox session in the springtime. Drive it at least one time completely stock, then look at your upgrade path. You will have limitations on what you can do based on the class you are in - and if you want to stay in that class.

Just changing a hood or even a rear swaybar can sometimes bump you up (or down) a class depending on the rules.

You're getting the cart way before the horse, young gun.

[deadlydave]

Here's a tip then. Get some good brake pads, some new fluid, freshen your brakes and head to the first autox session in the springtime. Drive it at least one time completely stock, then look at your upgrade path. You will have limitations on what you can do based on the class you are in - and if you want to stay in that class.
Just changing a HOOD or even a rear swaybar can sometimes bump you up (or down) a class depending on the rules.
You're getting the cart way before the horse, young gun.

highlighted for truth. I went from D Stock to SM with ONE part. Totally Boned.

[Okin DaVanh]

I've seen Pat Olsen on NASIOC use that when he tracked his GT :) Lots of guys have used it as well, just don't be surprised if it doesn't hold up over time.


Um, it actually did. 2 years. In fact, it survived intact through 2 front end collisions and 1 Teh Missus driveway mishap. Better than my Stillen Front lip I had at the time.




Here was what I was going to do until Quantum had a sale on their hub flanges... http://subaru-wrx-sti.com/web/MODS/brak ... ducts.html (http://subaru-wrx-sti.com/web/MODS/brakeducts/brakeducts.html)


As for my driving style and region, you said it best if I ever did this as low as my car is and as bad as Taxachussettes is:

just don't be surprised if it doesn't hold up over time.

The ducts run too low fro my car. I would however, vent them through the liner. That's me tho.