BE LSD

[ScaryFatKidGT]

so...I just learned that 2000-2004 legacys GT's have rear LSD's I DID NOT KNOW THAT and I want one im sick of AWD with 2 open diff's

I was wondering what type of LSD are they? are they the same gear ratio as the BD's rear diff? and are they swapable (is that a word?) and how hard would this be to do??

Is this legacy gt rear LSD similar to the wrx rear LSD?

[xXGTBspecXx]

+1 what subaru that has LSD stock will be a direct swap with our 2nd gen leggy's??

[KAG]

The 00-04 Legacy GT LSD is the same as the wrx LSD (not STi) which is the same as the 91 Legacy SS LSD which is the same as a rear LSD out of an 86 Datsun 510. They are all viscous type LSD's which use a silicone fluid to become slip-limiting.

Now, gear ratio on the other hand. That's where it gets tricky.

I'm going to assume you have a BD GT, so you have a 4.11 final drive and NO rear LSD.

You can use a rear differential carrier from:
a manual 00-01 2.5RS,
an 02-05 AUTOMATIC WRX, or
a manual (5-spd) Legacy GT 00-06 and it will bolt right up.
Yes, the 05/06 BL and BP models came with a 4.11 final drive until 07 which is when it became 3.90

The only thing is, you need axles for the LSD differential as LSD axles tend to be 10mm (3/8in) shorter than their non-LSD counterparts. You'd need 02-05 wrx WAGON axles specifically for your case.

[ScaryFatKidGT]

I'm going to assume you have a BD GT, so you have a 4.11 final drive and NO rear LSD.
yes


You can use a rear differential carrier from a manual 00-01 2.5RS, an 02-05 AUTOMATIC wrx, or a manual (5-spd) Legacy GT 00-06 and it will bolt right up. Yes, the 05/06 BL and BP models came with a 4.11 final drive until 07 which is when it became 3.90
these are all 4.11? these can be used on auto or manual BD GT's? me and xXGTBspecXx have auto's I believe


The only thing is, you need axles for the LSD differential as LSD axles tend to be 10mm (3/8in) shorter than their non-LSD counterparts. You'd need 02-05 wrx WAGON axles specifically for your case.

so the ONLY oem axles that will work on a BD GT are 02-05 auto wagon axles???

[KAG]

I thought you had a manual tranny? Scratch that then, my bad. You should have a 4.44 final drive with your 4EAT. The ones I listed only work for 5-speed 2nd gen. Legacy GT models which have the 4.11 gears.

A rear LSD differential from an 00-04 automatic (4EAT) Legacy GT will have the correct ratio you'd need and will bolt right up.

The axles don't have to be from an auto wrx wagon, they can be from either a 5spd or auto wrx because the rear setup is the same on both models. The sedan track is wider than the wagon though, which is why the sedan axles would cause binding on a Legacy. The wagon axles are the perfect length, however.

As for the difficulty of doing this, it's not that bad if you have the proper tools and a lot of room to work under the car. Can be done in less than an hour.

[ScaryFatKidGT]

As for the difficulty of doing this, it's not that bad if you have the proper tools and a lot of room to work under the car. Can be done in less than an hour.

gosh you got me wanting to find one and do this right now lol

ok so I would need 00-04 legacy GT rear LSD and 02-05 wrx WAGON axles

would a 02-05 auto wrx LSD work?

[KAG]

would a 02-05 auto wrx LSD work?
Nope. 02-05 automatic WRX has a 4.11 final drive ratio.

The easiest way to find one would be http://www.car-part.com and under search go:

2000 >>> Subaru Legacy >>> Carrier (See Also Differential)

On the next screen, you will see a list. The one you want is at the very bottom labeled "Rear, AT, GT". You'll now have a list of all the ones for sale at various salvage yards around the country. I've seen them go for anywhere from $45 to $700 so be on the lookout for the one closest and at the best price.

[ScaryFatKidGT]

THANKS!

i want the one that says "(locking)" right?

$45-$700 :smt017 I don't want a broken one but I don't want to pay $700 you could get a new one for that

[xXGTBspecXx]

if i find a BE gt in my local yard its game on!! wait.. no one ever really explained how the car will act with LSD.. will it be more tail happy?

[ScaryFatKidGT]

if i find a BE gt in my local yard its game on!! wait.. no one ever really explained how the car will act with LSD.. will it be more tail happy?

naaa I don't think theres enough horse-power to madder and we have autos with a front bias tq split it will just help in snow and gravle and for launching. It might be a little more tail happy sliding in dirt but thats about it

[xXGTBspecXx]

who dont have enough horsepower?? :roll:

and thats another thing this duty solinoid C deal.. no one ever finishes talkin bout it. i want to know what i have to do to get more voltage to it so i can have a 50 50 split dammit!!

on a side note wow im a loser i have 1031 posts

[ScaryFatKidGT]

who dont have enough horsepower?? :roll:
lol seriously what do u have for whp?


and thats another thing this duty solinoid C deal.. no one ever finishes talkin bout it. i want to know what i have to do to get more voltage to it so i can have a 50 50 split dammit!!

I KNOW! every one starts the thread and just says what it is and what it does but never how to do it

50/50 blah :roll: I'm going for 55/45 or 60/40 lol

[xXGTBspecXx]

ok our GTs are supposed to have 165 at the crank from the factory.. now with my butt dyno and my feeling in a stock wrx.. i think i may have around 160-180 whp. stock wrxs have 170 whp correct me if im wrong.. and my motor is setup for 10psi. it feels like a wrx when i put it to the floor. and i havent even gotten my turbo on the car yet...

i need a dyno in my backyard.... someone lend me $100,000

[ScaryFatKidGT]

ok our GTs are supposed to have 165 at the crank from the factory.. now with my butt dyno and my feeling in a stock wrx.. i think i may have around 160-180 whp. stock wrxs have 170 whp correct me if im wrong.. and my motor is setup for 10psi. it feels like a wrx when i put it to the floor. and i havent even gotten my turbo on the car yet...

i need a dyno in my backyard.... someone lend me $100,000

yeah stock GT's have about 115 whp

heck if I had $100,000 I'd forget the dyno and get a corvette ZR-1...ok ok I'd probably get a STi or Spec-B and put 70,000 grand into it lol

[rougeben83]

ok our GTs are supposed to have 165 at the crank from the factory.. now with my butt dyno and my feeling in a stock wrx.. i think i may have around 160-180 whp. stock wrxs have 170 whp correct me if im wrong.. and my motor is setup for 10psi. it feels like a wrx when i put it to the floor. and i havent even gotten my turbo on the car yet...

i need a dyno in my backyard.... someone lend me $100,000

What youre feeling is the 300lb weight gain a WRX has over your BD :roll:

Just find KAG's DIY for putting a VLSD into your rear carrier. You dont NEED to get the exact gear ratio for the new unit, you can swap ring gears and not have to mess with the preload on the pinion.

And honestly, drive a VLSD equipped car to see if you can really feel the difference, its very subtle. The vlsd types that come on the WRX/GT's are a decent step up, but the difference is no where as significant as a clutch (what some elitists call a "real" LSD) type LSD. Of course the clutch types cost over twice as much...

The bottomline is I wouldn't try to spend too much money to put an OEM vlsd into your car. Any more than a couple of hundred bucks and you're better off saving a little more for a clutch type (either JDM WRX/STi or aftermarket).

[Airgne]

i cant wait to get a mechanical lsd again. as soon as i get a damn ss.

[deadlydave]

Airgne's post reminded me to tell you guys that are thinking about upgrading one vital piece of info.

The Viscous type LSD's in subies (What's being talked about)...If they're high milage, the Viscous fluid no longer works and you essentially have an open diff at that point. So, if you buy used, get low miles.

Baja turbos have a rear LSD too, And I know I've seen a few of those wrecked. I'm still being dense and considering RWD, if I do go that route, I'll have to upgrade to an R180 rear diff, and my R160 will be up for sale. This 'upgrade' is still over a year away.

[KAG]

The above 3 posts are 100% correct. ScaryFatKidGT - what's your reasoning behind doing this?

When I installed a viscous LSD into my car, the difference was very subtle. Sure, it may have helped acceleration out of sharp corners a little bit, but it was nothing to get excited about. I have had a few people PM'ing me about this and if it was worth it or not. Honestly, you'd be better off putting the money towards a sway bar and endlinks. I just did it because I'd never done it in a Subaru before and there was a guy parting out a low-mileage wrx locally for cheap.

The V-LSD in Subaru's is the absolute weakest kind of LSD there is. A mechanical LSD is a pretty good step over the viscous, but there are further limits. If you want a REAL limited-slip unit, a Quaife is the way to go. Then again, spending $1200 on a DD doesn't seem very smart.

Deadlydave, thanks for pointing that out. There's a reason why people don't always just use the 91 Legacy SS rear diff when doing a 3.90 swap - it's a viscous unit that's almost 20 years old and is likely to have very high mileage. The silicone fluid breaks down over time and it becomes pretty much useless.

FWIW, we all know that rougeben is putting down around 300whp, rally-x's, auto-x's and probably beats the s**t out of his car more than anyone on this board, and not even he has rear LSD...

[ScaryFatKidGT]

By mecanical do you mean helical? because isnt that what the STi has?

well is there any oem mecanical diff that would fit? and couldn't you just change the fluid in the viscous diff? or not?

my reasoning well someones probably guna yell at me and say I'm waisting money but

1 I love BD's and they dont have a LSD where 2000-04 GT's do 05 and up GT's do wrx's do so I want one in my favorite model

2 it would help slide the car around when F*&@ing around

3 snow and gravle traction I'v got my car stuck in the snow and my drive way many times and I'm sick of seeing the tires just spin even though i have AWD

4 its not that much money it could be done for under $200

mainly for grip in snow and gravel and mud

[Custom Import Heads]

The 00-04 Legacy GT LSD is the same as the wrx LSD (not STi) which is the same as the 91 Legacy SS LSD which is the same as a rear LSD out of an 86 Datsun 510. They are all viscous type LSD's which use a silicone fluid to become slip-limiting.

I figure this should get cleared up. It is true that the 00-04 Legs use a vlsd as do the WRX's. However, the R160 diffs from the EA series Subarus that the Datsun guys have been snagging are not viscous style. They are a clutch style. Clutch style are "locked" all the time. Viscous style are "locked" in with acceleration. Two different designs intended for two different purposes.

The question was asked how it will react. On slippery surfaces the rear end will tend to slide out. This is fun when you are ready for it.

[ScaryFatKidGT]

The question was asked how it will react. On slippery surfaces the rear end will tend to slide out. This is fun when you are ready for it.

one minor reason I want one :smt025

[KAG]

Mechanical means that it uses gears to prevent both wheels from slipping rather than silicone fluid. The STi has a mechanical r180 rear LSD and a front LSD in the 6-speed tranny which became 'helical' in 05.

The silicone fluid in the actual LSD unit is sealed and cannot be changed. The fluid you put in the carrier only lubricates the ring and pinion.

Your reasoning is good as long as you actually CAN find it for under $200 and it's in good condition. Anything more than that, you'd be better off putting the money into suspension.

I wont lie, I've had my share of fun out in slippery parking lots. :smt002


I figure this should get cleared up. It is true that the 00-04 Legs use a vlsd as do the WRX's. However, the R160 diffs from the EA series Subarus that the Datsun guys have been snagging are not viscous style. They are a clutch style. Clutch style are "locked" all the time. Viscous style are "locked" in with acceleration. Two different designs intended for two different purposes.
Really? I always thought those were viscous types as well. I've never physically pulled one apart to look at it though so I'll take your word for it :lol: Thanks for clearing that up.

[ScaryFatKidGT]

Mechanical means that it uses gears to prevent both wheels from slipping rather than silicone fluid. The STi has a mechanical r180 rear LSD and a front LSD in the 6-speed tranny which became 'helical' in 05.
so does the STi have a front, rear and center "locking" diff (center being the DCCD) or just a rear and center?

so is there any oem mecanical LSD that would fit? or would i have to go aftermarket and get a new one if i wanted a mecanical one?

[rougeben83]

Mechanical means that it uses gears to prevent both wheels from slipping rather than silicone fluid. The STi has a mechanical r180 rear LSD and a front LSD in the 6-speed tranny which became 'helical' in 05.
so does the STi have a front, rear and center "locking" diff (center being the DCCD) or just a rear and center?

so is there any oem mecanical LSD that would fit? or would i have to go aftermarket and get a new one if i wanted a mecanical one?

USDM STI's got different types of front LSD's depending on the year. If you're thinking a USDM STi LSD is something for you, you can't reuse the R180 rear diff parts in your R160, theyre completely different fand it will take a lot more money to convert the R180 to the right gearing with your 5speed than its worth to just get the clutch type LSD. If you mean a JDM STI/WRX LSD from the late 90's, you'll also need the axles as the clutch-types use uneven length axles. USDM vlsd is the cheapest way to go, since you can reuse your axles and changing the diffs out are pretty straightforward.

Custom Heads is right, the SS legacy used a clutch type, and also needs the unequal axles like the JDM lsd's.

A limited slip is NOT going to make or break how much fun you have with your car. It's all in how you drive. And a limited slip should only come into play if youre getting inside wheel-spin to begin with...something that I found quite impossible to do when I was still n/a, and requires a very slippery surface with the power the car has now. And if youre managing to get wheelspin in the first place, you need to tweak the nut behind the wheel :wink:

[ScaryFatKidGT]

im going to need different axles anyway its an auto

so like what years?

[rougeben83]

im going to need different axles anyway its an auto

so like what years?

No you don't if you stick with a VLSD.

[ScaryFatKidGT]

kag was saying I would need wrx wagon axles which doesnt bother me

il probably go with a vlsd but is there any mechanical ones I could use?

[Airgne]

quaife maske mechanical lsd's for subaru.

[rougeben83]

Quaife, Suretrac, Kaaz, Cusco, they all make one. Search for WRX rear diffs, whatever will fit in there will fit in yours.

Also, the Quaife unit is a Torque Bias Diff...it's a little more complex than the clutch-types, but it does cost $500 more.

Here's a Cusco diff:
http://www.visual-assault.org/ssd_admin/albums/album-53/lg/IMG_1804.jpg

[KAG]

Sorry Ben, I'm gonna have to pick apart what you said here just because I'm like that. :grin:


If you mean a JDM STI/WRX LSD from the late 90's, you'll also need the axles as the clutch-types use uneven length axles. USDM vlsd is the cheapest way to go, since you can reuse your axles and changing the diffs out are pretty straightforward.
I was told by a guy here, Gator GT, that all LSD's use different length axles than their non-LSD counterparts. Before he owned his Spec.B, he had a BD, so I'm thinking that it may be that this only applies to 2nd gen. Legacy's and other models because I can recall several instances in the NASIOC drivetrain section where people who want to swap a VLSD in their 93-01 Impreza were told to use WRX wagon axles in order for everything to sit right.

The BE/BH's (and likely the BL/BP's as well) cant use the WRX axles since they lack the speed-sensing splines found on the axles, rather than the hubs, of our cars so it's better to just use the axles of the GT model of the same car. On my car, the driver side axle didn't quite sit right with the VLSD compared to when I had the open diff in. It was driveable, and there was no noise, but I switched over to 00 LGT axles just to be safe.


Custom Heads is right, the SS legacy used a clutch type, and also needs the unequal axles like the JDM lsd's.
Custom Heads said that EA series Subaru's had the clutch-type LSD's. The 91 SS (EJ) came with a viscous unit - I've confirmed this myself. The only difference is that it has axle stubs and uses female axles.

[rougeben83]

Sorry Ben, I'm gonna have to pick apart what you said here just because I'm like that. :grin:


If you mean a JDM STI/WRX LSD from the late 90's, you'll also need the axles as the clutch-types use uneven length axles. USDM vlsd is the cheapest way to go, since you can reuse your axles and changing the diffs out are pretty straightforward.
I was told by a guy here, Gator GT, that all LSD's use different length axles than their non-LSD counterparts. Before he owned his Spec.B, he had a BD, so I'm thinking that it may be that this only applies to 2nd gen. Legacy's and other models because I can recall several instances in the NASIOC drivetrain section where people who want to swap a VLSD in their 93-01 Impreza were told to use WRX wagon axles in order for everything to sit right.

The BE/BH's (and likely the BL/BP's as well) cant use the WRX axles since they lack the speed-sensing splines found on the axles, rather than the hubs, of our cars so it's better to just use the axles of the GT model of the same car. On my car, the driver side axle didn't quite sit right with the VLSD compared to when I had the open diff in. It was driveable, and there was no noise, but I switched over to 00 LGT axles just to be safe.


Custom Heads is right, the SS legacy used a clutch type, and also needs the unequal axles like the JDM lsd's.
Custom Heads said that EA series Subaru's had the clutch-type LSD's. The 91 SS (EJ) came with a viscous unit - I've confirmed this myself. The only difference is that it has axle stubs and uses female axles.

Were you able to compare your old axle to the GT axles? How did it not "sit right"? I've always been told that as long as the c-clip in the stub locks into the diff, that's all there really is...

I've read/heard the opposite, you can use your open diff axles with the 02+WRX, 00-02 RS vlsd's, the difference in length is minimal mostly because its the track of the car that changes axles lengths and the R160 housing is basically the same across the subaru range. Of course you can get the "right" length axles for peace of mind...It's very similar to WRX owners switching to the sedan control arms to gain the extra 20mm in track; some are adamant that you NEED the matching sedan axles, but plenty of people have proven that there's enough "give" in the measurements that this isn't necessarily true (including myself :razz: , wait I don't even own a WRX! :lol:)

There are a few 98 RS owners who got shafted with an open rear diff and did the conversion, along with nonRS owners, a lot of them just reused their axles when going with the 00+ RS units.

I always thought the SS had a clutch type due to it having subs on the diff :smt017 .

pic of what I mean by unequal length axles if youre going with subaru clutch-type LSD (this is from a JDM GC STi IIRC).
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/5920/aaaaaaaqs1.jpg

[KAG]

When I first put the axle into the diff, it almost seemed as if it was a little too long and there was still a little space between the little side 'plate' on the axle and the diff. That wasn't the case with the GT axles.

I didn't get a chance to compare them side-by-side when I was at it the first time, but I'm contemplating going back and comparing everything so we can see for sure or not. Like I said though, there were no signs of binding or other noises coming from the rear with the stock axles, so that could be a very valid point made that the difference between them is too small to make a noticeable difference.

So, back to the OP (ScaryFatKidGT) - if you do end up doing this, don't worry about axles for the time being unless you start to hear/feel binding in the rear. All you need is the carrier and you're set. You can either find a VLSD already geared 4.44 or if you can't find one locally, you can always do what I did and swap an LSD unit from another carrier that has a different gear ratio and just swap the ring gear over. Check the swaps/conversions section and it should be titled "Limted-Slip Differential Install" if you don't know what I'm talking about.

[ScaryFatKidGT]

ok yea there was alot a vlsd's on that auto parts websight

and dont i want 4.11? with the auto trans?

[rougeben83]

ok yea there was alot a vlsd's on that auto parts websight

and dont i want 4.11? with the auto trans?

Go check your bellhousing, it will have the transmission code printed on a white label, right next to the starter. Best way to find it is look at the transmission from the driver's side. Then compare it on this list: http://spda-online.ca/modules/tinyconte ... tc_28.html (http://spda-online.ca/modules/tinycontent/rewrite/tc_28.html)

THEN you'll have definitive proof of what FD you need to be looking for.

[Airgne]

that dont have my tranny or rear diff on it. :smt010

[TbirdMan]

sorry to bump an old topic, but i want to know if I am understanding this right. I can get a VLSD out of an 01 OB H6 LL Bean edition. I believe this is a 4.11 FD which is what I am going to need for my 5MT swap. What I need to know is, will my GT axles work with the VLSD, or will I need WRX Wagon Axles?

[ScaryFatKidGT]

I still wanna do this

So all this leads me to believe that the Viscous coupling center differentials also wear out? So a WRX with like 130K on it wouldn't transfer power at all really? and the fluid is unchangeable. This is why I wanna swap in either the STi 6spd (full drivetrain preferably) or a VTD 45/55tq split auto VS. a 5spd manual. Are there any other tannys, JDM or other that use mechanical differentials?

The 07-08 Legacy Spec-B's have the STi 6spd but do they have the DCCD or the Mechanical planetary gears to transfer slip or do they just use a viscous coupling?

[Matty2Hotty]

Anyone know if the Outback Limited 00-04 are LSD rears?

Nevermind... found it on outbacksubaru forum... Only the Limited Models(Mine :smt045) come with the LSD Rears! Yeahhhh!

[rougeben83]

I'm not 100% about the H6 outback rears, I've seen some referred to as "eletronic" LSD's or something proprietary, I've mainly dealt with manual and auto impreza rear diffs.

In the meanwhile, I've put nearly 12k on the swapped 2.5rs vlsd that already had 99k on it putting down turbo power. I can still do axis spins in the snow with it.

[mike-tracy]

I still wanna do this

So all this leads me to believe that the Viscous coupling center differentials also wear out? So a WRX with like 130K on it wouldn't transfer power at all really? and the fluid is unchangeable. This is why I wanna swap in either the STi 6spd (full drivetrain preferably) or a VTD 45/55tq split auto VS. a 5spd manual. Are there any other tannys, JDM or other that use mechanical differentials?

The 07-08 Legacy Spec-B's have the STi 6spd but do they have the DCCD or the Mechanical planetary gears to transfer slip or do they just use a viscous coupling?


All your requested info is out there

[ScaryFatKidGT]

I still wanna do this

So all this leads me to believe that the Viscous coupling center differentials also wear out? So a WRX with like 130K on it wouldn't transfer power at all really? and the fluid is unchangeable. This is why I wanna swap in either the STi 6spd (full drivetrain preferably) or a VTD 45/55tq split auto VS. a 5spd manual. Are there any other tannys, JDM or other that use mechanical differentials?

The 07-08 Legacy Spec-B's have the STi 6spd but do they have the DCCD or the Mechanical planetary gears to transfer slip or do they just use a viscous coupling?


All your requested info is out thereOut where?