Should we save GM/Chrysler?

[Plays_with_Toys]

I posted this in the rants and raves of my city's craiglist, so here it goes here:

I'm not going to get into the semantics of the $800 billion bailout.

My question is a little more specific than party politics. The American auto industry has been suffering for several years now. Mostly as a result of gas prices. Americans wanted bigger cars that naturally didn't get good gas mileage. Now the companies are going belly up, with no plans to change their product lines. Their quality has not increased (the exception being Ford who is the only big 3 company recognized as having quality that is caught up to Toyota), their gas mileage hasn't changed in the last 10 years (heck even 30 years). They say they are American companies but increasingly their production work is being done in places like Africa and Mexico (again, compared to Hyundai, Toyota, and Honda all building new factories in the states).

Each of the big 3 has vehicles in their other product lines capable of 50+ mpg, ala their European market diesel cars. But, the trucking industry pushes them back to keep their fuel prices low, and lobbyists back them by making CAFE standards too stringent that the emission controls equipment for diesels choke the engines (reducing economy) while adding thousands of dollars to cost (case in point the Subaru diesel which gets 55mpg, may not be released in the states because it will cost an additional $3,000 just due to the need to pass California diesel regulations). The government has made plenty of concessions to these failing lines, including the new CAFE standards for gas mileage:

http://i32.tinypic.com/3322wpt.jpg

Yes. That's right. By 2015 Chrysler and GM will have to have an average fleet mpg efficiency of 33.6 and 34.7. To put this into perspective look at Ferrari (34.8), Porsche (41.3), Lotus (41.7). To read the whole release: http://www.nhtsa.gov/portal/nhtsa_stati ... ril_21.pdf (http://www.nhtsa.gov/portal/nhtsa_static_file_downloader.jsp?file=/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Rulemaking/Rules/Associated%20Files/CAFE_11-15_NPRM_April_21.pdf)

Currently GM and Chrysler are petitioning for an additional $22billion to support them to 2011. This petition outlines their plans including cutting over 50,000 jobs. The point is, a free market allows good products to strive, and kills off failing products or forces them to be better. Why then should the US collectively pay for a product that we have proved over and over that we don't even want in our driveways? Should we invest money that has a high likelihood of no return on investment? Should we allow them to fail and maybe one day an American car maker can step back in with fresh and solid ideas?

[Airgne]

hell no dont save them. if they were smart they would do what ford or dodge is doing. ford is selling of its companies to stay alive, and dodge is make they cars cheaper so they can move product.

also they charge to damn much for a product that is not worth it.

[peugoby]

I've thought about it for a long time and was actually just talking to my Dad about this tonight.

In my opinion Chrysler needs the X. I really want to see GM do something in the next two years to change my mind. Chrysler is just done. Throw in the towel - A broken business model is just that; BROKEN!

[rougeben83]

hell no dont save them. if they were smart they would do what ford or dodge is doing. ford is selling of its companies to stay alive, and dodge is make they cars cheaper so they can move product.

also they charge to damn much for a product that is not worth it.

But Dodge IS Chrysler...

[Airgne]

hell no dont save them. if they were smart they would do what ford or dodge is doing. ford is selling of its companies to stay alive, and dodge is make they cars cheaper so they can move product.

also they charge to damn much for a product that is not worth it.

But Dodge IS Chrysler...

if you look at it there are not. just like jeep is not. they yes are under the same name, but its just like ford owned jag and mazda. they are owned by the same, but not the same.

[SilentRacer]

Kill Chrysler. Chrysler doesn't know how to make a quality vehicle. Look what happened to Benz when it merged with chrysler, quality went down the toilet. I say save GM as long as it kills off some of its brands that compete with each other. Time for saturn, pontiac, gmc to close shop.

[99SUS SFD]

I think that if a company isn't capable of surviving, then so be it. Survival of the fittest.

I don't think an iconic name brand like Jeep should go down with Chrysler. I'm sure it wouldn't, I'm sure some group of people would snatch it up. I also agree that GM needs to drop lines like Pontiac, Saturn, GMC, so long as they're going to be copies of Chevrolet. If they were separate companies altogether it would be better.

I applaud Ford for not seeking a bail out like the other companies.

[Airgne]

gmc was around when chevy started. its the fact that they dont make them like they use to. if they made better quality product than i think most of them would be fine. also they need to understand that not everyone in america makes 80,000 a year. cars cost way to damn much. i look at cars on craigslist ie a fully swaped and built 240sx. these cost somewer of 7-15k. that is stupid. in japan the same car i can get for 3k in better condition. the problem with companies is they think by raising the price the will make more. epic fail. lower your damn price and you will move more product.

[rougeben83]

hell no dont save them. if they were smart they would do what ford or dodge is doing. ford is selling of its companies to stay alive, and dodge is make they cars cheaper so they can move product.

also they charge to damn much for a product that is not worth it.

But Dodge IS Chrysler...

if you look at it there are not. just like jeep is not. they yes are under the same name, but its just like ford owned jag and mazda. they are owned by the same, but not the same.

Um, caravan/town and country? sebring and avenger? 300c and Charger and Magnum AND Challenger? Oh yeah Durango and Aspen :roll: ? Are you missing something here? And no, if Chrysler dies, your Dodge does too. And if Ford dies, well you get the point. We're talking about multi-national corporations here, despite how the media keeps idiotically referring to them as "Detroit".

And last time any of the Big3 needed a "bailout" (ie another loan, unlike the free money we're throwing at the banks which SHOULD make all of you guys really angry) Chrysler paid off that loan early, WITH interest.

[Huffer]

In a word: no.

Expanded: do you want to be part of a socialist-slanted society, where economic failure is consistently rewarded with second chances? Who pays the price - our kids, our grandkids. And for what? So people can drive "iconic" branded cars with their $3 coffees?

I absolutely HATE that my taxes are being given without long-term thought to these companies.

Think about it - if they failed, and there really is a big enough market to create demand for vehicle production, then other companies will rise to fill that gap. It's BASIC economics. It's not complicated.

Also - if you're looking to buy a new car right now, do you want to buy a car that is unlikely to be supported past the next two years? Probably not. So let the dead horse be buried peacefully and move on.

The days of the 30year career job with the same company are over.
Let the whining car companies fail, get rid of the unions, go through the recession, and applaud the companies who are making the RIGHT sacrifices to ensure their long term viability (hello Honda, thanks for cutting F1, we know you'll be back).

They saw this coming years ago. They just chose to ignore it.

Welcome to big government.

[97legacygt]

The quality of the big three HAS increased. Americans are just too dumb to realize it. There are just as many American vehicles that will last to 300,000 as imports will. Granted, there have been a few that have been just plain junk, but every manufacture has those vehicles. The gas mileage has also increased. GM has probably a dozen and a half of cars that get over 30 mpg. I am pretty sure that is an increase from the last ten years and a massive increase from the last 30. Both GM and Dodge have some sort of active fuel management where it cuts out half the cylinders going down the highway so an 7000 pound truck can still get like 21-22 mpg. The new Toyota Tundra doesn't even get close to that. Let's not even talk about the gas mileage that diesel trucks can get. But I do agree with the emissions crap that you stated. Everybody is pushing the "green" thing way too much that it hurts other stuff that would actually be more helpful in the long run if you look at it right.

Yes. That's right. By 2015 Chrysler and GM will have to have an average fleet mpg efficiency of 33.6 and 34.7. To put this into perspective look at Ferrari (34.8), Porsche (41.3), Lotus (41.7). To read the whole release:
But also, those companies are making 95% cars, if not just cars. They are all smaller, aerodynamic vehicles that have the same technology and techniques that the Big Three is using for gas mileage. They do not have any big pickup trucks that are not aerodynamic and have a lot of weight to them empty.


also they charge to damn much for a product that is not worth it.
Again, I would say that is partly Americans fault. The auto union, whatever it is called, keeps saying that they have to have higher wages or they will go on strike. But they are already making gobs more money than they should. They go on strike and the manufactures have no choice but to raise the wages of the employees. Where does that added cost of manufacturing go? It gets tacked on to the price of the car, raising the cost of purchasing a car more expensive for dumb reason, imo. That is also probably one of the reasons that cars have no good depreciation value.

Toyota and Honda and others are building plants in America because they are getting HUGE tax incentives and are not influenced under the union to pay every worker more and more money every year. The domestic manufactures are leaving the states because it is cheaper to build elsewhere where people will work for less money. Its simple economics.

[Huffer]

If the "big 3" filed for bankruptcy back in November/December, ALL THE UAW contracts would have to be renegotiated from scratch. That would have crippled the power/money hungry unions.

I don't doubt that there are some benefits to having a union - but having worked for the last 10-12 years in a skilled job I have never needed a union to negotiate better than average pay + vacation.

[rougeben83]

If the "big 3" filed for bankruptcy back in November/December, ALL THE UAW contracts would have to be renegotiated from scratch. That would have crippled the power/money hungry unions.

I don't doubt that there are some benefits to having a union - but having worked for the last 10-12 years in a skilled job I have never needed a union to negotiate better than average pay + vacation.

While its very easy to pick on them right now and say "I told you so", at the current economic crisis, letting another couple of million or so people lose their job should not be at the top of the priority list.

I think people that say "let them burn!" are just as shortsighted as the people that they are condemning. If the banks had not gone bottomup, there would not have been a credit crisis, if there wouldnt have been a credit crisis, people would still be able to get loans for new cars, selling new cars wouldve helped kept GM/Chrysler afloat in the short term till at least the 2nd quarter of this year. But that didn't happen, hence why GM projected that they wouldn't even have any funds left to keep operating past 2009.

The whole point of the loans is damage control. The big3 are just as obligated to pay them back to the government as you or I would on a student loan. Again, if people really want something to bitch about, think of the FREE MONEY we just gave to the banks that is nearly ten times the amount that we're giving these guys in loans.

And ford, gm and chrysler were on the right track in the past 8 years or so on building competitive cars. The biggest and toughest obstacle they had yet to tackle were people's perception of America building crappy cars that the big 3 in due part had perpetuated over the past 4 decades.

[Huffer]

Believe me, I'm just as pissed at the banks. But this thread is about GM/Chrysler.

I'm sorry - but when they make financial decisions about buying FAILING brands and instead of retooling their factories to keep up with the smaller, "overseas" companies, then I have no sympathy.

I know for a FACT that many union workers believe they're immune - since I've been in this country (5-6 years now) I've met more than a handful of union workers that would show up at the plant in the morning, sit around all day and then clock out because there wasn't enough work to run the full factory - the justification was that it was less expensive to have them at the plant, rather than give them an entire day off.

Those are productive members of society being forced to sit on their hands because they're locked into a contract that makes it too expensive to actually have them work?

[99SUS SFD]

Part of an article from AOL:

"Chrysler will eliminate the Dodge Aspen, Durango and Chrysler PT Cruiser, company president Jim Press said. The Aspen and Durango, both large sport utility vehicles, have sold poorly while the PT Cruiser, released to much fanfare in 2000 due to its retro look, has also slumped in sales.
Detroit-based GM said it plans to sell or spin-off its Saturn brand. If those attempts are unsuccessful, GM will phase it out by 2011. GM is discussing the sale of its Hummer division and could complete the talks by March.
The automaker has also sought buyers for its Saab unit. Selling or eliminating those brands would leave GM to focus on Chevrolet, Cadillac, GMC and Buick, with Pontiac reduced to one or two models.
GM would also reduce the number of vehicle models, dropping the nameplates from 48 in 2008 to 36 by 2012, four fewer models than in the December plan. All of GM's major U.S. vehicle launches from 2009 to 2014 would be high-mileage cars and crossovers."

[rougeben83]

Believe me, I'm just as pissed at the banks. But this thread is about GM/Chrysler.

I'm sorry - but when they make financial decisions about buying FAILING brands and instead of retooling their factories to keep up with the smaller, "overseas" companies, then I have no sympathy.

I know for a FACT that many union workers believe they're immune - since I've been in this country (5-6 years now) I've met more than a handful of union workers that would show up at the plant in the morning, sit around all day and then clock out because there wasn't enough work to run the full factory - the justification was that it was less expensive to have them at the plant, rather than give them an entire day off.

Those are productive members of society being forced to sit on their hands because they're locked into a contract that makes it too expensive to actually have them work?

That is more of a union problem (in this case UAW) than the carmakers themselves. Believe me, I've always said the UAW is the big weight that is dragging these companies down. But the fact of the matter is, even with the 3 auto makers in bankruptcy, will the UAW go away? Even *if* their current contract is abolished, do you think they'll let the big 3 hire non union workers once theyre back on their feet? And why do you think Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc have been able to run plants in the US without UAW workers? The UAW has always tried get a foothold in these nonunion plants but theyve never really had a reason to because the US automakers were still around.

In your scenario of GM/Chrysler filing for bankruptcy, two things will happen 1) UAW will and most likely take root in these foreign makers' US plants and 2) once the US automakers have finished restructuring under chapter 11 the UAW will jump on their back again.

Now you have an even MORE influential UAW.

But that's besides the point. There is no "pretty" solution to this mess, but letting a couple of major multinational coorporations fall will have a domino affect across every related industry. It's the equivalent of bloodletting after you've already shot yourself in the foot.

[rougeben83]

RE: UAW, http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090218/ap_ ... /autos_uaw (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090218/ap_on_bi_ge/autos_uaw)

[Huffer]

US based GM operations fail, and they beg foreign govt for cash?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7897361.stm

[rougeben83]

US based GM operations fail, and they beg foreign govt for cash?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7897361.stm

Yeah, I believe Wagoner said GM wants Sweden and Germany to back up (ie give money) Saab or Opel in press conference yesterday. He also said if that wasn't going to happen, then they'll sell off the those companies way. This goes hand in hand with their plan to only keep Saturn around until 2011 as they originally positioned that brand as rebadges of the Opel/Vauxhaul cars found in Europe (the current european lineup of cars like the Astra, Speedster, Vectra).

They don't have any prospective buyers for either one AFAIK...

[Reason]

As much as I don't like newer American cars I have to say no. If all or even one go under it would be bad. Figure out how many people will be out of a job under Dodge, Chrysler, and Jeep. Not only would it be bad in the states, so will it in these other countries that they have factories in. It will be very bad, to sum it up in a few words.

[decke48]

personaly i dont think the "big 3" should go under. just they need to loose the union or change the contracts

[Reason]

personaly i dont think the "big 3" should go under. just they need to loose the union or change the contracts

It's not the union, it's the product they sell. If they sold a quality product with good gas millage at a competitive price then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Cutting jobs and stop giving free coffee at breaks will only help for a VERY short time. I don't think Chrysler will be around next year. If anything they will merge some of the line with the Dodge lineup. Jeep is garbage too, and they all look the same.

[decke48]

well the need to drop the high payed wages of assemble line workers. then the might invest some money on quaity. but im afraid they will fail somehow. they need to drop saturn before 2011. pontiac needs to go soon. jeep needs to be sold off. chrysler is a lost cause

[LunchBox04V]

I think tha you all have the pieces of the pie. It is not just one thing, it is the combination of all the parts. Poor product quality, poor product choice, poor gas mileage, and union wages. I currently work under a union, and in my job they are a needed part of the job. I have to be able to tell the company "no, that is dangerous, and we are not going for safety." That baing said, a starting wage at a UAW job is about twice I make per hour..... Something is a little wrong with that. my company went through chapter 11 (More of a ploy so that NWA could pick us up for cheap..... but stilll), and our wages were cut to basically what they are now. I see the unions at a major part of the cost in the cars. Don't forget the retirement payments for these workers too. United Airlines wacked they retirement funds to prevent chapter 11 not so long ago. Just my 2 cents..... we shall see what happens....

[legacygt420]

let em burn!!!! their cars suck anyways

[rougeben83]

I think tha you all have the pieces of the pie. It is not just one thing, it is the combination of all the parts. Poor product quality, poor product choice, poor gas mileage, and union wages. I currently work under a union, and in my job they are a needed part of the job. I have to be able to tell the company "no, that is dangerous, and we are not going for safety." That baing said, a starting wage at a UAW job is about twice I make per hour..... Something is a little wrong with that. my company went through chapter 11 (More of a ploy so that NWA could pick us up for cheap..... but stilll), and our wages were cut to basically what they are now. I see the unions at a major part of the cost in the cars. Don't forget the retirement payments for these workers too. United Airlines wacked they retirement funds to prevent chapter 11 not so long ago. Just my 2 cents..... we shall see what happens....

Yeah a lot of the costs for GM are from the legacy benefits of their retired workers and their spouses. I think they have to contribute like $12 million (or was it billion?) per year to the UAW healthcare funds alone, Chrysler and Ford have to do so but I think they're both under that amount. Which goes without saying that if you have to put that money towards benefits and other perks then you won't have money to put towards R&D and actual car manufacturing etc.

[Huffer]

Hence if they go "bankrupt" then they don't have to pay out those benefits, they can completely renegotiate the UAW contracts (or not have them at all - lets face it, a job doing what you're trained to do is better than standing outside a plant getting hungry), shut down and sell off the massive plants that have very few lines running, and cost more to run than they actually make...

Instead of encouraging the debt (with a bailout), wipe the slate clean.

[Tornadobrain]

I think tha you all have the pieces of the pie. It is not just one thing, it is the combination of all the parts. Poor product quality, poor product choice, poor gas mileage, and union wages. I currently work under a union, and in my job they are a needed part of the job. I have to be able to tell the company "no, that is dangerous, and we are not going for safety." That baing said, a starting wage at a UAW job is about twice I make per hour..... Something is a little wrong with that. my company went through chapter 11 (More of a ploy so that NWA could pick us up for cheap..... but stilll), and our wages were cut to basically what they are now. I see the unions at a major part of the cost in the cars. Don't forget the retirement payments for these workers too. United Airlines wacked they retirement funds to prevent chapter 11 not so long ago. Just my 2 cents..... we shall see what happens....


I agree that it's all these things together. In addition to these, it's that the big3 have over supplied their products. They kept making cars that no one was buying. I saw that GM had something like 48 models last year. Seemed to me to be more like 108 models, and they were all either copies, or look alikes. To me, they bought into too many other brands, or created too many new brands and flooded the market with unsellable garbage.

On top of this, I remember reading about the UAW as unwilling to restructure their contracts or help out their employers. That to me sounds arrogant. If your employer is about to go under, wouldn't it benefit you to help out as best you can? If restructuring your contract is going to help, do it. The alternative is that you could be looking for work elsewhere.

Just my two cents.......

[rougeben83]

I think tha you all have the pieces of the pie. It is not just one thing, it is the combination of all the parts. Poor product quality, poor product choice, poor gas mileage, and union wages. I currently work under a union, and in my job they are a needed part of the job. I have to be able to tell the company "no, that is dangerous, and we are not going for safety." That baing said, a starting wage at a UAW job is about twice I make per hour..... Something is a little wrong with that. my company went through chapter 11 (More of a ploy so that NWA could pick us up for cheap..... but stilll), and our wages were cut to basically what they are now. I see the unions at a major part of the cost in the cars. Don't forget the retirement payments for these workers too. United Airlines wacked they retirement funds to prevent chapter 11 not so long ago. Just my 2 cents..... we shall see what happens....


I agree that it's all these things together. In addition to these, it's that the big3 have over supplied their products. They kept making cars that no one was buying. I saw that GM had something like 48 models last year. Seemed to me to be more like 108 models, and they were all either copies, or look alikes. To me, they bought into too many other brands, or created too many new brands and flooded the market with unsellable garbage.

On top of this, I remember reading about the UAW as unwilling to restructure their contracts or help out their employers. That to me sounds arrogant. If your employer is about to go under, wouldn't it benefit you to help out as best you can? If restructuring your contract is going to help, do it. The alternative is that you could be looking for work elsewhere.

Just my two cents.......

theyre starting to budge, but I agree they do have to do more. It's unfortunate that it will probably mean cutting off all the retirees of their benefits, but a lot of the automaker's costs are being put into legacy programs and other things that aren't even involved with designing and making a car at the present day.

[Huffer]

What is the average hourly wage of a UAW auto worker?


According to the Indianapolis Star:
Base wages average about $28 an hour. GM officials say the average reaches $39.68 an hour, including base pay, cost-of-living adjustments, night-shift premiums, overtime, holiday and vacation pay. Health-care, pension and other benefits average another $33.58 an hour, GM says. - September 26, 2007 UNITED AUTO WORKERS OFF THE JOB, Striking back at globalization. By Ted Evanoff

According to the National Review:
Massive job cuts at General Motors, America's largest carmaker — coupled with the bankruptcy of Delphi, America's biggest autoparts maker — have provoked predictable handwringing from liberal pundits who worry that America is "losing its manufacturing base." But the wrenching change now buffeting the auto industry defies the usual press formulas. Just listen to Steve Miller a turnaround specialist who is steering Delphi's restructuring process. He exploded the myth of America's "endangered" union manufacturing jobs at his October press conference announcing Delphi's move into Chapter 11: "We cannot continue to pay $65 an hour for someone to cut the grass and remain competitive."
Take grass cutting. As defined by the current United Auto Worker contract negotiated with the "Big Five" (GM, Ford, Chrysler, and top parts makers Delphi and Visteon), an auto "production worker" is a job description that covers anything from mowing grass to cleaning the toilets. In the real world, these jobs would be outsourced to $8 an hour, no-benefit wage earners, but on Planet Big Five, these jobs get the same wages as any auto line-worker: an average $26 an hour ($60,000 a year) plus benefits that bring the company's total cost per worker to a staggering $65 an hour.
But at least the grass cutters are working for their pay. The UAW contract also guarantees that 12,000 autoworkers get full wage for doing nothing. On the heels of Miller's straight-talk, the Detroit News reported that "12,000 American autoworkers, instead of bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank." These aren't jobs. And they certainly aren't being "lost" to China.
"We just go in (to Ford's Michigan Truck Plant) and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," The News quoted one UAW worker as saying. "Otherwise, I've just sat."
The coming months will be painful for many American autoworkers. Accustomed to a certain lifestyle, they will see their wages cut in half, jeopardizing second homes, college tuitions, and car payments. One blue-collar Delphi worker interviewed by the Detroit News makes $103,000 a year operating a forklift and fears the consequences if his pay is drastically reduced. But many Americans will ask how a forklift operator felt entitled to a six-figure income in the first place (according to Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average forklift operator wage in the U.S. is $26,000).
It is an opportune time for political leadership to step to the plate and speak with candor, but the signs are not encouraging.
- November 29, 2005, Labor Pains, Detroit needs to play by market rules. By Henry Payne
Source(s):
The Indianapolis Star and the National Review

* 1 year ago


However:

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008 ... 99179.html (http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/12/13/299179.html)


UAW Wage Vs. Non-Union Labor At Transplants a Surprising Look
PHOTO

Editor's Note: After seeing these wage comparisons. it looks like labor is being made the scapegoat once again, by not only inept auto company management and inept U.S. Senators, but also the by UAW leadership...if these numbers are fact then the UAW should have agreed out of hand to the Senates request for parity and eliminated the drama and negative feeling to working men and woman.

DETROIT, Dec 12, 2008; Poornima Gupta writing for Reuters reported that the wages and benefits for the United Auto Workers union are at the center of a debate on a $14 billion package in emergency loans to U.S. automakers.

Some Republican senators want Detroit autoworkers to have pay parity with foreign auto manufacturers.

But the UAW has said the wages and benefits of its members are now competitive with workers employed by Japanese automakers following landmark labor agreements the union reached with General Motors Corp, Chrysler and Ford Motor Co in 2007.

The agreement slashed wages for new hires and created a trust for retiree healthcare called a Voluntary Employee Beneficiary Association, or VEBA, to shift liabilities to a union-aligned trust to be established in 2010.

Here are details of the average hourly labor cost of UAW workers employed at Ford and those employed by non-U.S. based automakers with plants in the United States. The figures are similar across the three Detroit automakers.

WAGES: Base hourly wages and cost of living adjustments

* UAW: $29
* Transplants: $26

WAGE RELATED: Paid vacation, overtime, holidays, night and weekend pay, break time

* UAW: $14
* Transplants: $9

BENEFITS: Healthcare, training, etc

* UAW: $12
* Transplants: $11

LEGACY COSTS (Without VEBA): Pension and healthcare benefits for retirees

* UAW: $16
* Transplants: $3

LEGACY COSTS (With VEBA): Pension and healthcare benefits for retirees

* UAW: $3
* Transplants: $3

TOTAL LABOR COST:

* UAW (without VEBA): $71
* UAW (with VEBA): $58
* Transplants: $49

Source of data Ford Motor Company.

The VEBA Plan is a tax-free health reimbursement arrangement (HRA) that enables your employer to make tax-free contributions into a special trust account on your behalf. These tax-free funds can then be used to pay or reimburse eligible out-of-pocket health care costs and premiums for yourself, your spouse, and your qualified IRS dependents.

Note: Average wage assumes 20 percent entry-level employees.

Editing for Reuters by Gary Hill

[rougeben83]

[quote]What is the average hourly wage of a UAW auto worker?


According to the Indianapolis Star:
Base wages average about $28 an hour. GM officials say the average reaches $39.68 an hour, including base pay, cost-of-living adjustments, night-shift premiums, overtime, holiday and vacation pay. Health-care, pension and other benefits average another $33.58 an hour, GM says. - September 26, 2007 UNITED AUTO WORKERS OFF THE JOB, Striking back at globalization. By Ted Evanoff

According to the National Review:
Massive job cuts at General Motors, America's largest carmaker — coupled with the bankruptcy of Delphi, America's biggest autoparts maker — have provoked predictable handwringing from liberal pundits who worry that America is "losing its manufacturing base." But the wrenching change now buffeting the auto industry defies the usual press formulas. Just listen to Steve Miller a turnaround specialist who is steering Delphi's restructuring process. He exploded the myth of America's "endangered" union manufacturing jobs at his October press conference announcing Delphi's move into Chapter 11: "We cannot continue to pay $65 an hour for someone to cut the grass and remain competitive."
Take grass cutting. As defined by the current United Auto Worker contract negotiated with the "Big Five" (GM, Ford, Chrysler, and top parts makers Delphi and Visteon), an auto "production worker" is a job description that covers anything from mowing grass to cleaning the toilets. In the real world, these jobs would be outsourced to $8 an hour, no-benefit wage earners, but on Planet Big Five, these jobs get the same wages as any auto line-worker: an average $26 an hour ($60,000 a year) plus benefits that bring the company's total cost per worker to a staggering $65 an hour.
But at least the grass cutters are working for their pay. The UAW contract also guarantees that 12,000 autoworkers get full wage for doing nothing. On the heels of Miller's straight-talk, the Detroit News reported that "12,000 American autoworkers, instead of bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank." These aren't jobs. And they certainly aren't being "lost" to China.
"We just go in (to Ford's Michigan Truck Plant) and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," The News quoted one UAW worker as saying. "Otherwise, I've just sat."
The coming months will be painful for many American autoworkers. Accustomed to a certain lifestyle, they will see their wages cut in half, jeopardizing second homes, college tuitions, and car payments. One blue-collar Delphi worker interviewed by the Detroit News makes $103,000 a year operating a forklift and fears the consequences if his pay is drastically reduced. But many Americans will ask how a forklift operator felt entitled to a six-figure income in the first place (according to Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average forklift operator wage in the U.S. is $26,000).
It is an opportune time for political leadership to step to the plate and speak with candor, but the signs are not encouraging.
- November 29, 2005, Labor Pains, Detroit needs to play by market rules. By Henry Payne
Source(s):
The Indianapolis Star and the National Review

* 1 year ago


However:

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008 ... 99179.html (http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/12/13/299179.html)


UAW Wage Vs. Non-Union Labor At Transplants a Surprising Look
PHOTO

Editor's Note: After seeing these wage comparisons. it looks like labor is being made the scapegoat once again, by not only inept auto company management and inept U.S. Senators, but also the by UAW leadership...if these numbers are fact then the UAW should have agreed out of hand to the Senates request for parity and eliminated the drama and negative feeling to working men and woman.

DETROIT, Dec 12, 2008; Poornima Gupta writing for Reuters reported that the wages and benefits for the United Auto Workers union are at the center of a debate on a $14 billion package in emergency loans to U.S. automakers.

Some Republican senators want Detroit autoworkers to have pay parity with foreign auto manufacturers.

But the UAW has said the wages and benefits of its members are now competitive with workers employed by Japanese automakers following landmark labor agreements the union reached with General Motors Corp, Chrysler and Ford Motor Co in 2007.

The agreement slashed wages for new hires and created a trust for retiree healthcare called a Voluntary Employee Beneficiary Association, or VEBA, to shift liabilities to a union-aligned trust to be established in 2010.

Here are details of the average hourly labor cost of UAW workers employed at Ford and those employed by non-U.S. based automakers with plants in the United States. The figures are similar across the three Detroit automakers.

WAGES: Base hourly wages and cost of living adjustments

* UAW: $29
* Transplants: $26

WAGE RELATED: Paid vacation, overtime, holidays, night and weekend pay, break time

* UAW: $14
* Transplants: $9

BENEFITS: Healthcare, training, etc

* UAW: $12
* Transplants: $11

LEGACY COSTS (Without VEBA): Pension and healthcare benefits for retirees

* UAW: $16
* Transplants: $3

LEGACY COSTS (With VEBA): Pension and healthcare benefits for retirees

* UAW: $3
* Transplants: $3

TOTAL LABOR COST:

* UAW (without VEBA): $71
* UAW (with VEBA): $58
* Transplants: $49

Source of data Ford Motor Company.

The VEBA Plan is a tax-free health reimbursement arrangement (HRA) that enables your employer to make tax-free contributions into a special trust account on your behalf. These tax-free funds can then be used to pay or reimburse eligible out-of-pocket health care costs and premiums for yourself, your spouse, and your qualified IRS dependents.

Note: Average wage assumes 20 percent entry-level employees.

Editing for Reuters by Gary Hill
[/quote:3ewy4tve]

yeah under the old system with the $28/hr wage, some autoworkers were even able to make $100,000/year with overtime and bonuses, according to Wagnoner's press conference regarding GM's financial restructuring this week. I think they implemented a 2tier system that will have the newer employees being paid at a relatively competitive rate. The problem is the older workers that are still under the old pay system...part of why Ford/GM started buying out those workers a couple of years back to get them off the payroll and be replaced with younger workers.

[evolegacy]

I'll put my 2 cents in on this topic....in the form of a vid i watched, some of you may have heard of it, i highly recomend watching it if you are wondering about the rise and fall of the economic state of the US, and what all of this bailout money is really doing to us.

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

the movie that came out in october is what you will want to watch if you want to learn more about the economic crisis and the federal reserve, etc.

[Plays_with_Toys]

^^^ Thanks for posting that. I had seen the original Zeitgeist and didn't know there was an update. I've only watched about 40 minutes of it though. I love watching documentaries on google video, but tend to watch them at night- so I end up falling asleep and have to rewatch the darn things like 5 times.

FWIW, I went and saw The International and it was very interesting because it didn't go totally neck deep into what international banks goals are, but it does mention at one point that control of the debt is control of the people, and it talks about that banks are not concerned with the flow of money, but rather the flow of control. Very cool movie.

[evolegacy]

I love watching documentaries on google video, but tend to watch them at night- so I end up falling asleep and have to rewatch the darn things like 5 times.


and thats why i have yet to finish it, haha


but back to main topic...

Down with the unbelievers of the flat-4!!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

*storms out of room draped in a cloak, screaming strange beliefs about a subaru god*

[Plays_with_Toys]

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2442/1235374450837.jpg

[MacNews]

GMC/Pontiac/Chevy is garbage too, and they all look the same.

Fixed.