View Full Version : Whine sound - tranny or front differential problem?
It is pretty long story.
My vehicle is a Legacy L 2.5i (NA) 2002 4EAT, 127k mi.
I changed engine oil on Aug 22 morning at local Firestone. While check out, they suggested to change timing belt and front & rear differential oil. I said I will consider these.
Returning to home after oil change, I feel that the car is less powerful than before. And I heard whine from the front. So, I test the car with full throttle and the car seems Ok.
That day evening I drove a few miles, and I heard sharp and large metal scratching sound from the front and there were shocks as if the car hits a curb (no collision happened what so ever).
Next day (Aug 23) morning, I checked under the hood. And found that both ATF and front differential oil levels are very low; ATF can touch just bottom of the dipstick, and no front differential oil is shown at dipstick. I can see only black metal particles from differential dipstick.
I took the car to the Firestone again and said about it. After 1 hour, he said that they checked the car and ATF was slightly low. I asked about differential oil and he said that is Ok. And he could not find why the whine happens.
I drove back to home. ATF color is much brighter than before and it may suggest Firestone added significant amount of ATF. And found that still dipstick cannot even touch the differential oil. So I thought that the oil level is slight low since Firestone said the oil level is Ok. Then I went to local Pepboys to buy 1 quart differential oil (75W90). I poured it into the differential and checked the oil level, but dipstick still cannot touch the oil. So I bought another 1 quart and poured 0.5 more quart. Then finally the oil level shows full. Manual says that the front differential oil capacity is 1.3 quart, and I poured about 1.5 quart (including some spill and overfill). So I guess that the differential oil was empty. It is surprising that they only filled the ATF although I said both ATF and differential are low. I even found that Firestone improperly installed engine air filter casing, maybe they checked the air filter and did not properly put it back. I installed it back properly.
Even after the oil is full, I still hears whine (sound like smooth scratching) when I push throttle pedal. And the sound become larger and larger. Today, I hear even irregular whine.
After the oil change, I frequently check the ATF and front differential oil. ATF seems Ok. But differenrial contains metal particles. When I stop the car and check the differential dipstick, oil looks black and contains metal particles. Then I put back the dipstick and pull it again, dipstick shows clean (no metal particle) and bright color.
I have Firestone recommended estimate to change (not low fluid level) differential oil. It suggest that the differential was not empty when I 1st went to Firestone. I have receipts for 2 bottles of differential oil and I think it may be a proof that differential was empty.
What happened? What can I do?
green97gt
09-16-2009, 12:34 AM
if your getting metal shavings on your front diff dipstick, theres not alot you can do. no amount of fluid can fix it,
it is possible a bearing or race is becoming worm and causeing the shavings, or a a worse case the diff gears themselves are wearing improperly, theres really no way to tell without removing the front diff..
take out the drain plug for the front diff and check the magnet on the end of it... a little fine shavings should be normal, but larger chunks/pieces are not.
to extend the life of a wearing diff, i would recommend using a bit thicker LUCAS diff oil.
when the front diff of a 4EAT was EATING itself, we put some REAL thick lucas diff oil in there and it shut up , and i beleive got a few hundred more miles out of it.
but this diff was bad..i mean real bad.
take out the drain plug for the front diff and check the magnet on the end of it... a little fine shavings should be normal, but larger chunks/pieces are not.
There are metal particles on the dipstick. Small slices, about 1~2mm.
green97gt
09-16-2009, 01:04 AM
may have been just from being low/out of fluid, keep it topped off, and it might not get any worse.
the only metal shavings produced from a diff should be tiny. like dust.
i would remove your drainplug and see whats stuck to the magnet.
edit: sounds to me like you may have a bearing going
ouch1011
09-16-2009, 01:33 AM
My guess is they drained the diff oil instead of the engine oil. Have you checked your engine oil? Someone I used to work with a long time ago did this by accident.
If there are metal shavings on the diff dipstick and you added 1.5qts in order to see any oil on the stick, its toast.
Yup sounds like Firestone screwed up and damage has been done.
My guess is they drained the diff oil instead of the engine oil. Have you checked your engine oil? Someone I used to work with a long time ago did this by accident.
If there are metal shavings on the diff dipstick and you added 1.5qts in order to see any oil on the stick, its toast.
Firestone drained engine oil, front diff, and ATF. But filled only engine oil.
I found it and complained about front diff, and ATF. But this time they filled ATF only.
the only metal shavings produced from a diff should be tiny. like dust.
IMO, metal shaving is larger than dust. It is small and thin 1~2mm metal slice.
green97gt
09-16-2009, 01:09 PM
Firestone drained engine oil, front diff, and ATF. But filled only engine oil.
I found it and complained about front diff, and ATF. But this time they filled ATF only.
what?!?!?!? and you werent outraged and demanding they fix there mess up? might be to late now, but i would go have words with the manager, beats hacving the shell out $$$$ to fix firestones mistake
Firestone drained engine oil, front diff, and ATF. But filled only engine oil.
I found it and complained about front diff, and ATF. But this time they filled ATF only.
what?!?!?!? and you werent outraged and demanding they fix there mess up? might be to late now, but i would go have words with the manager, beats hacving the shell out $$$$ to fix firestones mistake
I did not know it at that time, unfortunately.
Yup sounds like Firestone screwed up and damage has been done.
I sent an e-mail about it to Firestone through their website last night. I could not get any response yet. I do not know whether it goes to HQ or local. But considering HQ maililg address shown at this page, I guess that it goes to HQ.
http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.co ... act.action (http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/feedback/getContact.action)
It seems that Firestone does not provide reparing transmission nor differental. I check Firestone website but could not find such a service.
http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.co ... gnment.jsp (http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/repair/alignment.jsp)
http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.co ... engine.jsp (http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/repair/engine.jsp)
It suggest that Firestone cannot repair my transmission or differental.
green97gt
09-19-2009, 09:58 AM
they cant repair it, but they f*ck with it....thats silly.
good luck dude...if i were in your shoes i would put in some lucas diff oil, can usually be found a little thicker than normal, and its good stuff, but admittedly a little pricey
and just ride it out, odds are it will get alot worse before it becomes a major prioblem, if you just have a whine, you probably have pitted rollers, or a scarred bearing race. ive seen some of these diffs make noises like you wouldnt believe.
UNLESS of course you can get in touch with the store manager and raise hell about them draining, and not refilling your diff...which is stupid, and they should pay for...
they cant repair it, but they f*ck with it....thats silly.
good luck dude...if i were in your shoes i would put in some lucas diff oil, can usually be found a little thicker than normal, and its good stuff, but admittedly a little pricey
and just ride it out, odds are it will get alot worse before it becomes a major prioblem, if you just have a whine, you probably have pitted rollers, or a scarred bearing race. ive seen some of these diffs make noises like you wouldnt believe.
UNLESS of course you can get in touch with the store manager and raise hell about them draining, and not refilling your diff...which is stupid, and they should pay for...
I found the front differential drain. It is not easy to find since it is covered by exhaust. And there is marking "diff oil". It is just a plain hex head. The above link (changing diff oil) was very helpful to know where it is. (between both CVJs) Thank you.
I found that the front differential drain is still wet. Wet drain suggest that the diff has been drained recently. ATF drain is still wet also. I took a few photos of it. I will post pictures if possible.
Is there any local on-line forum to post it? I expect different types of advise from local forum.
I am in Buffalo, NY, USA area.
green97gt
09-20-2009, 02:43 AM
what different types of advice can be given?
want someone to recommend a shop or something?
or looking for someone to tell you it isnt broken?
or tell you that firestone didnt screw up?
or that your not a little bit silly for not catching it/raising all kinds of hell because a shop/morons f*cked up your car?
or looking for someone to offer to fix it?
i guess im just confused....subarus, for the most part are subarus, at least in the states. so im puzzled what advice your looking for...
no front differential oil is shown at dipstick. I can see only black metal particles from differential dipstick.
I took the car to the Firestone again and said about it. After 1 hour, he said that they checked the car and ATF was slightly low. I asked about differential oil and he said that is Ok. And he could not find why the whine happens.
I drove back to home. ATF color is much brighter than before and it may suggest Firestone added significant amount of ATF. And found that still dipstick cannot even touch the differential oil.
obviously these guys are a joke and i would find another auto shop...
what different types of advice can be given?
want someone to recommend a shop or something?
or looking for someone to tell you it isnt broken?
or tell you that firestone didnt screw up?
or that your not a little bit silly for not catching it/raising all kinds of hell because a shop/morons f*cked up your car?
or looking for someone to offer to fix it?
i guess im just confused....subarus, for the most part are subarus, at least in the states. so im puzzled what advice your looking for...
no front differential oil is shown at dipstick. I can see only black metal particles from differential dipstick.
I took the car to the Firestone again and said about it. After 1 hour, he said that they checked the car and ATF was slightly low. I asked about differential oil and he said that is Ok. And he could not find why the whine happens.
I drove back to home. ATF color is much brighter than before and it may suggest Firestone added significant amount of ATF. And found that still dipstick cannot even touch the differential oil.
obviously these guys are a joke and i would find another auto shop...
Firestone might damage other car. I may find other victim of Firestone. Their experience can be helpful.
Yup sounds like Firestone screwed up and damage has been done.
I sent an e-mail about it to Firestone through their website last night. I could not get any response yet. I do not know whether it goes to HQ or local. But considering HQ maililg address shown at this page, I guess that it goes to HQ.
http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.co ... act.action (http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/feedback/getContact.action)
I could not get any response for 4 days from Firestone.
So I filed a complaint at BBB (Better Business Bureau). Link is the Firestone complaint stat.
http://www.bbb.org/upstate-new-york/bus ... e-ny-3309/ (http://www.bbb.org/upstate-new-york/business-reviews/auto-repair-and-service/firestone-tire-and-service-in-williamsville-ny-3309/)
There is also Forestone's own customer survey.
http://www.firestonesurvey.com/
I selected negative answers then the site wanted me to leave contact info for area manager.
Is there any other way to file complaint or claim?
I could not get any response for 4 days from Firestone.
So I filed a complaint at BBB (Better Business Bureau). Link is the Firestone complaint stat.
http://www.bbb.org/upstate-new-york/bus ... e-ny-3309/ (http://www.bbb.org/upstate-new-york/business-reviews/auto-repair-and-service/firestone-tire-and-service-in-williamsville-ny-3309/)
There is also Forestone's own customer survey.
http://www.firestonesurvey.com/
I selected negative answers then the site wanted me to leave contact info for area manager.
Is there any other way to file complaint or claim?
I got a phone call 2 days ago from Firestone. Caller's area # 630 is west Chicago where is the region for HQ.
The Firestone staff (Dave) said that he is confused. Since it is not possible to drain diff and ATF during engine oil change. I said that "Firestone technician might think that I agreed to change diff oil".
Dave also said that it is not possible for technician to drain ATF since a car cannot move with ATF drained. I said that car can still move with 1/2 ATF drained; full ATF drain requires special device. And there are thread on Subaru forum that a car moves with 1/2 drained.
Dave argued that there was ATF leak, not ATF drain. My answer is that I cannot find any sign of leak; ATF does not decrease and there is no oil on the ground under the car.
Dave also said that the diff might be previous damaged but one could not notice. I said I have been to Subaru dealer a few times, but there was no mention about it. Then Dave said that even Subaru dealer may not find it since there is no dipstick for diff. So I told him that there is diff dipstick in Subaru. It seems that he do not believe that Subaru has diff dipstick.
I said "Come and see. Diff and ATF drain are still wet with oil." But Dave said that he cannot do it before damage report.
Dave wanted me to inspect my car at the mechanic I selected. And fax him the report that the car was damaged by oil drain. He said he can start to to something only after the report. And I agreeed.
After the conversation, I found a problem. To inspect diff and trannny, mechanic may need to drain oil. Then Dave may argue that the drain is wet because of the inspection. I left a voice message about it to Dave yesterday evening, but there was no response yet.
green97gt
09-24-2009, 07:02 PM
your probably screwed because you waited so long after you had it in the first time....that sucks
Then Dave said that even Subaru dealer may not find it since there is no dipstick for diff. So I told him that there is diff dipstick in Subaru. It seems that he do not believe that Subaru has diff dipstick.
"dave" is obviously a bit stupid
and to properly inspect the front diff on a subaru, alot more than draining the fluid has to occur...such as taking out the motor, or trans to figure out if the bearings are wearing, or the teeth on the gears
After the conversation, I found a problem. To inspect diff and trannny, mechanic may need to drain oil. Then Dave may argue that the drain is wet because of the inspection. I left a voice message about it to Dave yesterday evening, but there was no response yet.
I called Firestone Dave a few times, but I could not talk with him; it was directed to voice mail every time. I left a voice message again.
BRSleeper2
09-24-2009, 07:27 PM
Myth that sucks... I am from buffalo... What firestone? Also speaking from a current case of suing Jasper Motors and lots of research it is EXTREMELY difficult to sue and win against an auto garage unless it is extremely obvious (which is still not easy, Head gasket went with in 500 miles of reman. motor in my motorhome and they are fighting it???!!!!) I am really not a fan of any mechanic and try to so all my own work... but if it has to go to a mechanic I won't take it to a chain... they hire anyone. You can have all the training in the world and still be an idiot. Hind sight is 20/20 I know... Trust me I am 12,000 dollars into a motor for a 18,000 dollar motorhome!
Myth that sucks... I am from buffalo... What firestone? Also speaking from a current case of suing Jasper Motors and lots of research it is EXTREMELY difficult to sue and win against an auto garage unless it is extremely obvious (which is still not easy, Head gasket went with in 500 miles of reman. motor in my motorhome and they are fighting it???!!!!) I am really not a fan of any mechanic and try to so all my own work... but if it has to go to a mechanic I won't take it to a chain... they hire anyone. You can have all the training in the world and still be an idiot. Hind sight is 20/20 I know... Trust me I am 12,000 dollars into a motor for a 18,000 dollar motorhome!
I am glad to see another member in Buffalo.
It was done by:
Firestone Complete Auto Care Store # 018112
3931 Maple Rd., Amherst, NY 14226
(716) 837-7721
It seems that the Firestone technician of 1st visit was not in normal condition. He checked engine air filter, but did not properly installed it back. He also broke driver side internal aux mirror(~$5). And finally, he drained front diff and ATF but did not refill them. It was Sat morning (8:00 am) and experienced technician may not like to work at that time.
I will do the works myself if I can, as you do. But if you need a professional mechanic, I recommend "Gary service, Tonawanda" and "Amton Auto & Truck Repair, Kenmore, http://www.amtonautoandtruck.com/" They are both independent garages. All my friends are fan of them. About Gary, you can check his high reputation with google search.
I will appreciate if I can hear more about your Jasper Motors case. Maybe it is better to start a new thread. You may find another person with similar problem.
I checked Jasper Motors website (http://www.jasperengines.com). They advertise for quality and warranty. But they refuse to honor warranty for you.
I found the front differential drain. It is not easy to find since it is covered by exhaust. And there is marking "diff oil". It is just a plain hex head. The above link (changing diff oil) was very helpful to know where it is. (between both CVJs) Thank you.
I found that the front differential drain is still wet. Wet drain suggest that the diff has been drained recently. ATF drain is still wet also. I took a few photos of it. I will post pictures if possible.
Now I post pics.
Diff drain plug. Only plug and around are wet. Note the marking "DIFF OIL"
http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73764&d=1253855430
ATF drain plug. Only plug and around are wet.
http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73765&d=1253855430
Front diff dipstick.
http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73766&d=1253855870
Front diff dipstick head. See black oil on the dipstick.
http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73767&d=1253855870
Front diff dipstick was cleaned with napkin. See black oil on napkin
http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73768&d=1253855870
After cleaning the dipstick, I put it back in place then pull it out again.
front diff dipstick head. See clean oil on the dipstick this time.
http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73769&d=1253856318
front diff dipstick was cleaned with napkin. See clean oil on napkin this time.
http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73770&d=1253856318
ATF dipstick head. See oil on the dipstick
http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73771&d=1253856449
ATF dipstick was cleaned with napkin. See fresh red oil on napkin.
http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73772&d=1253856449
Pics are taken Sep 21, Mon.
p.s. How to upload and post pics into sl-i.net?
BRSleeper2
09-25-2009, 02:43 AM
http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak- ... 0_5835.jpg (http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2319/161/87/1483501343/n1483501343_30220020_5835.jpg) .................on the top of text window were you post there is a bunch of boxes, Hit the one that says Img and paste you link in between tags. BUT for some reason when you paste on this site it removes the 2nd tags [ from the beginning... make sure it is there. hope that helps...
Making sure I was correct... My subaru on the beach.
http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2319/161/87/1483501343/n1483501343_30220020_5835.jpg
http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2319/161/87/1483501343/n1483501343_30220020_5835.jpg .................on the top of text window were you post there is a bunch of boxes, Hit the one that says Img and paste you link in between tags. BUT for some reason when you paste on this site it removes the 2nd tags [ from the beginning... make sure it is there. hope that helps...
Thank you. That works well.
Now I post pics.
Diff drain plug. Only plug and around are wet. Note the marking "DIFF OIL"
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2009/09/attachmentphpattachmentid73764d125385543-1.jpg
ATF drain plug. Only plug and around are wet.
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2009/09/attachmentphpattachmentid73765d125385543-1.jpg
Front diff dipstick.
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2009/09/attachmentphpattachmentid73766d125385587-1.jpg
Front diff dipstick head. See black oil on the dipstick.
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2009/09/attachmentphpattachmentid73767d125385587-1.jpg
Front diff dipstick was cleaned with napkin. See black oil on napkin
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2009/09/attachmentphpattachmentid73768d125385587-1.jpg
After cleaning the dipstick, I put it back in place then pull it out again.
front diff dipstick head. See clean oil on the dipstick this time.
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2009/09/attachmentphpattachmentid73769d125385631-1.jpg
front diff dipstick was cleaned with napkin. See clean oil on napkin this time.
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2009/09/attachmentphpattachmentid73770d125385631-1.jpg
ATF dipstick head. See oil on the dipstick
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2009/09/attachmentphpattachmentid73771d125385644-1.jpg
ATF dipstick was cleaned with napkin. See fresh red oil on napkin.
https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2009/09/attachmentphpattachmentid73772d125385644-1.jpg
Pics are taken Sep 21, Mon.
BRSleeper2
09-25-2009, 07:10 PM
Glad I could be of help... As far as the jasper case we are currently corresponding with the attorney general's office which is taking forever! They use snail mail and they seem to take their sweet ole time sending it out... wife is getting to the point of getting our lawyer involved to speed up the process.
I got a phone call 2 days ago from Firestone. Caller's area # 630 is west Chicago where is the region for HQ.
The Firestone staff (Dave) said that he is confused. Since it is not possible to drain diff and ATF during engine oil change. I said that "Firestone technician might think that I agreed to change diff oil".
Dave also said that it is not possible for technician to drain ATF since a car cannot move with ATF drained. I said that car can still move with 1/2 ATF drained; full ATF drain requires special device. And there are thread on Subaru forum that a car moves with 1/2 drained.
Dave argued that there was ATF leak, not ATF drain. My answer is that I cannot find any sign of leak; ATF does not decrease and there is no oil on the ground under the car.
Dave also said that the diff might be previous damaged but one could not notice. I said I have been to Subaru dealer a few times, but there was no mention about it. Then Dave said that even Subaru dealer may not find it since there is no dipstick for diff. So I told him that there is diff dipstick in Subaru. It seems that he do not believe that Subaru has diff dipstick.
I said "Come and see. Diff and ATF drain are still wet with oil." But Dave said that he cannot do it before damage report.
Dave wanted me to inspect my car at the mechanic I selected. And fax him the report that the car was damaged by oil drain. He said he can start to to something only after the report. And I agreeed.
After the conversation, I found a problem. To inspect diff and trannny, mechanic may need to drain oil. Then Dave may argue that the drain is wet because of the inspection. I left a voice message about it to Dave yesterday evening, but there was no response yet.
In worst case, it will cost $2000 even without warranty. I dropped the car at transmission specialist. It will take 3~4 days of work.
I have been to an independent mechanic with high reputation. I said about the story to mechanic. And he said that car cannot move with drained diff. A few hours later, I heard that it may be a transmission problem. But he cannot find exactly what is wrong and exact inspection requires huge work to disassemble. He suggested to find a transmission specialist. I asked him to recommend a tranny expert. And he recommended “x x transmission”(not the real name. the word transmission in name.).
Then, I moved to recommended tranny expert and told the story. He test drove the car and said “final drive shot” immediately. He said that there should not be such a whining sound. He will never drive a cars like mine since it can hit any time. He have fixed so many these cars (meaning Subaru?) and sait that “tranny + difff + final drive” is the most expensive part. I told about the oil drain, and he asked who did it. I said Firestone, and he said I should not go there. To know whether the damage was caused by oil drain, he need to take apart “tranny + difff + final drive” part. If the damage was done from oil drain, he will take photos of it. In worst case, the “tranny + difff + final drive” need to be replaced to a used one at about $2000 ($1500 part + $500 install). Worse news is that used part has no warranty. If it can be repaired without replacement, he will do it at lower price with 1 year warranty. It will take 3~4 days.
There is no response from Firestone Dave about my voice message yet.
Glad I could be of help... As far as the jasper case we are currently corresponding with the attorney general's office which is taking forever! They use snail mail and they seem to take their sweet ole time sending it out... wife is getting to the point of getting our lawyer involved to speed up the process.
Maybe also Firestone is using a similar strategy; delay, delay, delay … and delay. So that customer will be tired of it and stop pursuing claim.
It took 5 days to get 1st response from Firestone about my claim. I tried to contact Firestone Dave but failed, then left voice message. But there was no response for 2 days yet.
BRSleeper2
09-25-2009, 07:45 PM
I hope that transmission shop is not on Sheridan near Niagara Falls Blvd!!! I hope I hope, I Hope!
green97gt
09-25-2009, 07:51 PM
And he said that car cannot move with drained diff.
whoever said that is an idiot. dont let him touch your car.
I hope that transmission shop is not on Sheridan near Niagara Falls Blvd!!! I hope I hope, I Hope!
No, it is in North Tonawanda, fortunately.
It seems that the shop you mentioned is B*******, according to google map.
In worst case, it will cost $2000 even without warranty. I dropped the car at transmission specialist. It will take 3~4 days of work.
I have been to an independent mechanic with high reputation. I said about the story to mechanic. And he said that car cannot move with drained diff. A few hours later, I heard that it may be a transmission problem. But he cannot find exactly what is wrong and exact inspection requires huge work to disassemble. He suggested to find a transmission specialist. I asked him to recommend a tranny expert. And he recommended “x x transmission”(not the real name. the word transmission in name.).
Then, I moved to recommended tranny expert and told the story. He test drove the car and said “final drive shot” immediately. He said that there should not be such a whining sound. He will never drive a cars like mine since it can hit any time. He have fixed so many these cars (meaning Subaru?) and sait that “tranny + difff + final drive” is the most expensive part. I told about the oil drain, and he asked who did it. I said Firestone, and he said I should not go there. To know whether the damage was caused by oil drain, he need to take apart “tranny + difff + final drive” part. If the damage was done from oil drain, he will take photos of it. In worst case, the “tranny + difff + final drive” need to be replaced to a used one at about $2000 ($1500 part + $500 install). Worse news is that used part has no warranty. If it can be repaired without replacement, he will do it at lower price with 1 year warranty. It will take 3~4 days.
There is no response from Firestone Dave about my voice message yet.
It is even worse than the worst case. The tranny expert said that the cost will be $2200~2300. He cannot fix it because inside has gone so badly. The problem is bearing as he guessed. He paid $1800 for used one. And the installation will cost $400~500. And he think that the damage has been done because of a oil drained driving.
After hearing it, I tried to call Firestone Dave. But it was forwarded to voice message again. I left a voice message “I have a problem to discuss with you.”. But I do not think there will be any response.
I tried to call Firestone Dave many times from last Wed. (6 days ago), but all the calls were forwarded to voice message. I could not get any response for so many voice messages.
green97gt
09-29-2009, 06:47 PM
$1800 for used one for a used diff?
thats INSANE.
i bought one for $450 that was DAMN near new, then found i could find them cheaper if i tried.
for $1800 you could buy an almost new trans.
hate to say it, but i think he saw you coming...
It is even worse than the worst case. The tranny expert said that the cost will be $2200~2300. He cannot fix it because inside has gone so badly. The problem is bearing as he guessed. He paid $1800 for used one. And the installation will cost $400~500. And he think that the damage has been done because of a oil drained driving.
After hearing it, I tried to call Firestone Dave. But it was forwarded to voice message again. I left a voice message “I have a problem to discuss with you.”. But I do not think there will be any response.
I tried to call Firestone Dave many times from last Wed. (6 days ago), but all the calls were forwarded to voice message. I could not get any response for so many voice messages.
trans+diff was changed.
Today (Sep 30, Wed), I have been to the trans shop. The job is nearly done and will be finished tomorrow. Another guy (not the chief?) said again that the damage was done by oil drain. At the completion, They will write the estimate and inspection (damage reason) report. I asked him to keep the old trans+diff for a while since Firestone may want to see it. He said yes, but they cannot keep it for a long time due to the core charge. (If the shop do not return the old part to remanufacturer, shop need to pay a core charge) He said he need to talk with Firestone about core charge. I asked about warranty, but the answer is not positive; Used one generally comes with 30 or 90 days warranty.
I did some google search for "Subaru transmission". The result seems different from the trans shop's word. Remanufactured (for Legacy L 2002 AT) trans cost $1800~2000 (without core charge) and generally comes with 1~3 year warranty. I cound find just 1 seller for used trans; 30~70k miles and cost $1200. If the shop used a used one, then $1800 is somewhat high. If remanufactured one is used, there shoud be a 1~3 year warranty.
Firestone Dave called me today (Sep 30, Wed) morning, finally 7 days after I left so many messages. I could not answed and he left a voice message. He said that he responded for my (7 days old?) voice message. He want to send a inspection report to him.
Tonight (Sep 30, Wed), after visiting trans shop, I called Firestone Dave after his business hour and left a following voice message. The job will be finished tomorrow. Cost will be $2300. Trans+diff was changed since tranny shop cannot fix it because of severe damage. The trans shop think that the damage was done by oil drain. The shop will write the inspection report and estimate. I will fax him the documents. The old trans+diff will be kept for Firestone inspection, but it cannot be kept for a long time because of a core charge.
$1800 for used one for a used diff?
thats INSANE.
i bought one for $450 that was DAMN near new, then found i could find them cheaper if i tried.
for $1800 you could buy an almost new trans.
hate to say it, but i think he saw you coming...
Thank you for your point.
I did some google search for "Subaru transmission". The result seems different from the trans shop's word. Remanufactured (for Legacy L 2002 AT) trans cost $1800~2000 (without core charge) and generally comes with 1~3 year warranty. I cound find just 1 seller for used trans; 30~70k miles and cost $1200. If the shop used a used one, then $1800 is somewhat high. If remanufactured one is used, there shoud be a 1~3 year warranty.
trans+diff was changed.
Today (Sep 30, Wed), I have been to the trans shop. The job is nearly done and will be finished tomorrow. Another guy (not the chief?) said again that the damage was done by oil drain. At the completion, They will write the estimate and inspection (damage reason) report. I asked him to keep the old trans+diff for a while since Firestone may want to see it. He said yes, but they cannot keep it for a long time due to the core charge. (If the shop do not return the old part to remanufacturer, shop need to pay a core charge) He said he need to talk with Firestone about core charge. I asked about warranty, but the answer is not positive; Used one generally comes with 30 or 90 days warranty.
I did some google search for "Subaru transmission". The result seems different from the trans shop's word. Remanufactured (for Legacy L 2002 AT) trans cost $1800~2000 (without core charge) and generally comes with 1~3 year warranty. I cound find just 1 seller for used trans; 30~70k miles and cost $1200. If the shop used a used one, then $1800 is somewhat high. If remanufactured one is used, there shoud be a 1~3 year warranty.
Firestone Dave called me today (Sep 30, Wed) morning, finally 7 days after I left so many messages. I could not answed and he left a voice message. He said that he responded for my (7 days old?) voice message. He want to send a inspection report to him.
Tonight (Sep 30, Wed), after visiting trans shop, I called Firestone Dave after his business hour and left a following voice message. The job will be finished tomorrow. Cost will be $2300. Trans+diff was changed since tranny shop cannot fix it because of severe damage. The trans shop think that the damage was done by oil drain. The shop will write the inspection report and estimate. I will fax him the documents. The old trans+diff will be kept for Firestone inspection, but it cannot be kept for a long time because of a core charge.
Today 3pm, I called the trans shop and heard that the job will be finished tomorrow. I asked to call me when it is finished. He said today yesterday, but now tomorrow. My car was jacked up on the lift when I visited the shop yesterday. They have only 4 lifts and there are so many cars in the backyard. It suggest that they were still working on my car?
There is no response from Firestone Dave about yesterday voice message. He is so busy that it takes 7 days to respond to voice message?
It seems that “A mechanic drain wrong oil by mistake but do not fill it back” happens sometimes. Please read the following links. I quoted a few for your convenience.
2000 Subaru needs new transmission w/ only 34K miles - 2000 Forester
http://www.my3cents.com/showReview.cgi?id=1918
“The dealer is trying to point the finger at the quicklube/express lube where I had the oil changed. He says that the tech pulled the wrong plug & drained the transmission fluid.”
“when I purchased my Subaru, the salesman warned me of this issue and advised me to only have my oil changed at the Subaru dealership. I didn't believe him. However, on two separate occasions while dropping my vehicle off for service, there were customers at the dealership with this exact problem. The dealer also told me that they had to send technicans out several times a week to oil change places because no one could get an oil filter off a Subaru unless they had special tools or know how.”
“It appears that when a auto repair place drains your oil you should warn them not to drain your differiental too. Well how was I too know this would cost me $3500 to replace my the front differential in my 2002 Outback with less than 8k miles.”
“Blurt8 (09/17/2007)
I have a 2000 Subaru Forrester and it IS easy to confuse the transmission filter and oil with the engine oil...on the drivers side of the engine is a spin on filter and drain plug.....look exactly like engine filter and oil...it is NOT...I made this mistake trying to change my own oil.”
“equiptech (03/27/2008)
Subaru is one of the SMART designers to make a spin on filter for the Trans ( and a drain Plug) It is up to the Service shop to TRAIN their personnel to know how to CHANGE OIL!!!
…
I speak as a retired ASE Tech & a former Auto shop owner!!
These places hire by price & change personnel by the DAY!”
subaru transmission problems
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f133f60
Today 3pm, I called the trans shop and heard that the job will be finished tomorrow. I asked to call me when it is finished. He said today yesterday, but now tomorrow. My car was jacked up on the lift when I visited the shop yesterday. They have only 4 lifts and there are so many cars in the backyard. It suggest that they were still working on my car?
There is no response from Firestone Dave about yesterday voice message. He is so busy that it takes 7 days to respond to voice message?
The trans+diff replacement has been finished today. Today (Oct 2, Fri) 4pm, I called the trans shop and heard that the job has been done.
I will pick up my car tomorrow (Sat) or Monday.
There is no response from Firestone Dave. Why does not he call me?
The trans+diff replacement has been finished today. Today (Oct 2, Fri) 4pm, I called the trans shop and heard that the job has been done.
I will pick up my car tomorrow (Sat) or Monday.
There is no response from Firestone Dave. Why does not he call me?
I just (0:42, Oct 3, Sat, EST) left a voive message to Firestone Dave:
The repair has been finished. The cost will be $2300+tax. Trans+diff has been changed. I asked to keep the old trans for Firestone inspection. But the tranny shop cannot keep it long because of core charge. Please call me back ASAP.
How long will it take to get a response? Will Firestone want to see the old trans+diff?
The trans+diff replacement has been finished today. Today (Oct 2, Fri) 4pm, I called the trans shop and heard that the job has been done.
I will pick up my car tomorrow (Sat) or Monday.
There is no response from Firestone Dave. Why does not he call me?
I picked up my car back. It runs well.
Receipt says:
R&R 7.7 hours at $65.00 pin incl. bench dissas for insp. $500.50
supply salvage trans unit $1800.00
diagnosis finia drive assmly run no lube
R&R transaxle dissas for insp. final drive overheatin ring & pinion gears cut diff bearings bad, install salvage trans unit 2300.50
guarantee 90 days salvage trans unit
I asked and he said that it has 55k mi and runs pretty well.
I will send this receipt and letter to Firestone Dave using both fax and certified mail.
Trans shop charged $1800 for 55k used trans with 90 days warranty. They said that they bought it at $1800. It is reasonable?
It seems that used trans with 1 year warranty cost less than $700.
http://www.automotix.net/usedengines/20 ... ntory.html (http://www.automotix.net/usedengines/2002-subaru-legacy-inventory.html)
http://www.used-auto-transmissions.com/ ... store.html (http://www.used-auto-transmissions.com/usedtransmissionsales/subaru-legacy-2002-store.html)
Trans with remanufactured torque converter cost $1890. Core deposit is $500.
http://market.autopartsfair.com/subaru- ... 4sp_2.html (http://market.autopartsfair.com/subaru-transmissions/legacy-2002-automatic_transmissions-subaru4sp_2.html)
Trans shop mentioned about core charge, but core charge is not mentioned with used one, only with remanufactured one. 90 days warranty is too short; both used and reman one comes with 1 year warranty.
Firestone contact history. I will keep updating this history for record and quick reference.
Oct 3, Sat
I left a voive message to Firestone Dave:
The repair has been finished. The cost will be $2300+tax. Trans+diff has been changed. I asked to keep the old trans for Firestone inspection. But the tranny shop cannot keep it long because of core charge. Please call me back ASAP.
Sep 30, Wed, evening.
After visiting trans shop, I called Firestone Dave after his business hour and left a following voice message. The job will be finished tomorrow. Cost will be $2300. Trans+diff was changed since tranny shop cannot fix it because of severe damage. The trans shop think that the damage was done by oil drain. The shop will write the inspection report and estimate. I will fax him the documents. The old trans+diff will be kept for Firestone inspection, but it cannot be kept for a long time because of a core charge.
Sep 30, Wed, morning
Firestone Dave called me, finally 7 days after I left so many messages. I could not answer and he left a voice message. He said that he responded for my (7 days old?) voice message. He want to send a inspection report to him.
Sep 29, Tue, afternoon
I tried to call Firestone Dave. But it was forwarded to voice message again. I left a voice message "I have a problem to discuss with you.". But I do not think there will be any response.
I tried to call Firestone Dave many times from last Wed. (6 days ago), but all the calls were forwarded to voice message. I could not get any response for so many voice messages.
Sep 24
I called Firestone Dave a few times, but I could not talk with him; it was directed to voice mail every time. I left a voice message again.
Sep 22
I got a phone call 2 days ago from Firestone. Caller's area # 630 is west Chicago where is the region for HQ.
The Firestone staff (Dave) said that he is confused. Since it is not possible to drain diff and ATF during engine oil change. I said that "Firestone technician might think that I agreed to change diff oil".
Dave also said that it is not possible for technician to drain ATF since a car cannot move with ATF drained. I said that car can still move with 1/2 ATF drained; full ATF drain requires special device. And there are thread on Subaru forum that a car moves with 1/2 drained.
Dave argued that there was ATF leak, not ATF drain. My answer is that I cannot find any sign of leak; ATF does not decrease and there is no oil on the ground under the car.
Dave also said that the diff might be previous damaged but one could not notice. I said I have been to Subaru dealer a few times, but there was no mention about it. Then Dave said that even Subaru dealer may not find it since there is no dipstick for diff. So I told him that there is diff dipstick in Subaru. It seems that he do not believe that Subaru has diff dipstick.
I said "Come and see. Diff and ATF drain are still wet with oil." But Dave said that he cannot do it before damage report.
Dave wanted me to inspect my car at the mechanic I selected. And fax him the report that the car was damaged by oil drain. He said he can start to to something only after the report. And I agreeed.
After the conversation, I found a problem. To inspect diff and trannny, mechanic may need to drain oil. Then Dave may argue that the drain is wet because of the inspection. I left a voice message about it to Dave yesterday evening, but there was no response yet.
Sep 22
I could not get any response for 4 days from Firestone.
So I filed a complaint at BBB (Better Business Bureau). Link is the Firestone complaint stat.
http://www.bbb.org/upstate-new-york/bus ... e-ny-3309/ (http://www.bbb.org/upstate-new-york/business-reviews/auto-repair-and-service/firestone-tire-and-service-in-williamsville-ny-3309/)
There is also Forestone's own customer survey.
http://www.firestonesurvey.com/
I selected negative answers then the site wanted me to leave contact info for area manager.
Sep 19
I sent an e-mail about it to Firestone through their website last night. I could not get any response yet. I do not know whether it goes to HQ or local. But considering HQ maililg address shown at this page, I guess that it goes to HQ.
http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.co ... act.action (http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/feedback/getContact.action)
I just (0:42, Oct 3, Sat, EST) left a voive message to Firestone Dave:
The repair has been finished. The cost will be $2300+tax. Trans+diff has been changed. I asked to keep the old trans for Firestone inspection. But the tranny shop cannot keep it long because of core charge. Please call me back ASAP.
How long will it take to get a response? Will Firestone want to see the old trans+diff?
Firestone has denied my claim. This is pretty long to read. There is a summary on bottom.
Yesterday (Oct 05, Mon) morning, Firestone Dave called me but I could not answer. He left a message; He need the document from the shop and we really need to talk about it. Yesterday afternoon, I sent the bill with fax. Today (Oct 06, Tue) afternoon, I sent it again for overkill. And I tried to call him 3 times, but they were forwarded to voice messages “I sent the document, please call me back.”.
Today 5:43pm, Firestone Dave called me and I answered. He got the document. He quoted their Aug 23 record; there is a transmission leak. And there is a orange gasket which shows that my transmission has been repaired by another shop. I asked whether it is possible that a mechanic cannot see such a large ATF oil spot of underbody on 1st visit at Aug 22, and he said he does now know. There was no transmission repair while I am having it for 3 years. I pointed out that the failure happened in diff, not trans. Then he said that there is no proof that Firestone drained diff. Then I mentioned about Aug 22 record suggesting oil change which implies that the diff oil was not low at Aug 22. He said that the suggestion (change diff oil) does not mean that Firestone checked diff oil. He said that the suggestion can be just a scheduled maintenance. Then I asked again whether Firestone can suggest service without checking it and without knowing the service history , and he said yes. He does not know whether the diff oil has been checked or not. Then he said that my claim has been denied. He said that my chance is worse because my car has been already repaired. I told him that Firestone may see the old transmission if he want, but he said that it is not necessary since the claim has been denied. He said I may go to small claim court if I want. I asked to send a denial letter to me and he said yes. Just after phone call, I called him again to request the record about orange transmission gasket. He said that the claim has been denied and he would not say about it anymore. But after I requested for record, he said yes.
I guess he could have refused my claim from the start with the same reason; no clear proof that Firestone drained the diff oil and ATF. But, instead, he asked me to inspect my car saying that he need the inspection report to do anything. To inspect, the diff+transmission need to be pulled out and I need to repair it for ride. Now the possible proof in my car has gone, and he denied. Even if I showed the empty diff oil at 2nd visit (Aug 23), they could have argued the same manner; no clear proof.
What is my option now? I have no clear proof that Firestone drained the oil; Just situations. Firestone suggested to change diff oil at Aug 22, And I bought diff oil at Aug 23 (I have receipts) . And there is a trans shop description that the damage has been done due to no lube. What can I do?
Is it practically possible to clearly prove that a damage is caused by a mechanic shop? In most cases, shop can argue that the damage has existed previously.
I am somewhat surprised that Firestone Dave argued that Firestone sometimes recommend service without checking it. Not I, but a Firestone staff argued it.
Summary:
Firestone denied my claim. Firestone said that there is no clear proof that they drained oil. Suggesting diff oil change does not necessarily mean that they checked diff oil. I may go to small claim court if I want.
What is my option, now?
green97gt
10-06-2009, 09:05 PM
Is it practically possible to clearly prove that a damage is caused by a mechanic shop? In most cases, shop can argue that the damage has existed previously.
I am somewhat surprised that Firestone Dave argued that Firestone sometimes recommend service without checking it.
it is very difficult to prove they did it, and even if they did the paperwork you sign when you drop your car off is very cleverly worded in the shops favor.
and firestone dave is correct, they dont need to touch it to recommend it. hell, most of these quick lube/etc will reccoment alot od stuff before even opening the hood.
if its worth it to you, hire a lawyer, have him write some letters, be prepared to spend $$
it is very difficult to prove they did it, and even if they did the paperwork you sign when you drop your car off is very cleverly worded in the shops favor.
and firestone dave is correct, they dont need to touch it to recommend it. hell, most of these quick lube/etc will reccoment alot od stuff before even opening the hood.
if its worth it to you, hire a lawyer, have him write some letters, be prepared to spend $$
Even if that is the practice, arguing it is another problem. Dave argued that his company is ripping off people by recommending unnecessary service.
Summary:
Firestone denied my claim. Firestone said that there is no clear proof that they drained oil. Suggesting diff oil change does not necessarily mean that they checked diff oil. I may go to small claim court if I want.
What is my option, now?
I filed a claim through BBB. Since I could not get any response from my 1st contact to Firestone for a few days. I posted it in this thread before.
Now BBB forwarded me a Firestone's response to BBB. It seeme that the message to BBB is different from message to me; Firestone told me "CLEAR proof", but wrote to BBB just "proof".
===============================================================================
October 07, 2009
Better Business Bureau, Inc.
100 Bryant Woods South
Amherst, NY 14228
re: Firestone Tire and Service (complaint ID #A8276-F538E-18463-0AD3A-8FBEC-9AC14-F2)
Dear **** ****:
Enclosed is the company response to the complaint you filed with us.
The Better Business Bureau tries to settle complaints between businesses and consumers by acting as a neutral third party, and hearing both sides of the dispute. As a consequence, many complaints are resolved to the satisfaction of both parties.
In this case, we will report that the company has responded to the complaint by addressing the disputed issue(s) and exhibited a good faith effort to resolve the complaint. This category was assigned because the company responded within the BBB's desired time frame and provided a meaningful and specific response to the complaint, even though it may not fully satisfy the customer.
The information you have provided will remain in the company's file.
If this message contains a PDF file you will need Adobe Reader software to open it. If you do not currently have Adobe Reader installed on your pc, you can obtain it by visiting www.adobe.com (http://www.adobe.com) and clicking on the Get Adobe Reader button. If you do not wish to load this software onto your pc, please respond with a request for the correspondence to be sent to you via regular mail. The BBB is not responsible for any problems that you may incur while downloading software onto your pc.
Carol Bedard
Member Services
???????@upstatenybbb.org
----------------------- CONSUMER/BUSINESS MESSAGE DETAILS -----------------------
------ from the Business [received 10/7/2009] ------------------
I have just forwarded information to you about this situation under separate cover.
This customer was referred to our claims department. Our claims department denied the claim asking that something be provided that would substantiate it as we did NO service work on what the customer had complained to us about. Evidently, the customer has not provided that. We as a company stand behind everything we do, and certainly do make mistakes. If there were any form of proof that **** issues were a direct fault of our oil change service, we would certainly stand behind our work and make it right for our customer.
At this point, the claim stands with us as denied pending documented proof that we are at fault.
I believe that having our corporate claims department involved in this shows a good faith effort to resolve.
Please let me know if there are any other questions!
Thanks,
Chris Dean
------ from the Business [received 10/7/2009] ------------------
This claim was actually handled by Dave Dusak (x????). In review of the claim file it is documented that the last time Dave spoke with the customer was on 10/6/09 in which the customer stated that the vehicle was repaired and he was seeking reimbursement for what he paid the outside repair facility. The customer was then informed that a month prior the customer was informed that liability was declined. Dave requested documentation or proof that store caused failure, F/S did not service differential or transmission. The customer requested a denial letter which Dave sent out to the customer via regular mail.
If you need additional details you can reach Dave Dusak via email or phone #630/259-????.
Thanks,Rogers, DL
BFS retail & Commerical Operations, LLC
333 East Lake Street
Bloomingdale, IL 60108
Phone: 630-259-????
Fax: 630-259-????
E-mail: ????????@bfrc.com Please note new email address
----------------------- end CONSUMER/BUSINESS MESSAGE DETAILS -----------------------
I changed engine oil on Aug 22 morning at local Firestone. While check out, they suggested to change timing belt and front & rear differential oil. I said I will consider these.
Returning to home after oil change, I feel that the car is less powerful than before. And I heard whine from the front. So, I test the car with full throttle and the car seems Ok.
That day evening I drove a few miles, and I heard sharp and large metal scratching sound from the front and there were shocks as if the car hits a curb (no collision happened what so ever).
I just remembered it.
When I was driving at night of Aug 22 (the day of oil change), I stopped my car on roadside and checked what is wrong because of sharp and large noise along with shocks. Soon, a police patrol car came to me and asked about what is wrong. I said that I changed oil today and the car is making strange noise and shock. It seems that the office was mainly interested in removing my car from roadside; he asked whether I need a towing many times.
If there is any police record about it, and if I can get it, it will help to prove that the car was broken at Aug 22. Unfortunately, I cannot remember the patrol car # nor officer name. But I remember the location and time. Did the officer recorded my plate#? Did the officer reported my case?
Is there any record about it? Can I get it if it exist?
The police will probably not have any record of it unless a citation was issued.
I just remembered it.
When I was driving at night of Aug 22 (the day of oil change), I stopped my car on roadside and checked what is wrong because of sharp and large noise along with shocks. Soon, a police patrol car came to me and asked about what is wrong. I said that I changed oil today and the car is making strange noise and shock. It seems that the office was mainly interested in removing my car from roadside; he asked whether I need a towing many times.
If there is any police record about it, and if I can get it, it will help to prove that the car was broken at Aug 22. Unfortunately, I cannot remember the patrol car # nor officer name. But I remember the location and time. Did the officer recorded my plate#? Did the officer reported my case?
Is there any record about it? Can I get it if it exist?
The transmission shop found no leak.
I asked and got a memo from the trans shop that they found no oil leak from my old trans+diff, on Sep 12 Mon. I will post the memo detail later.
I got the denial letter from Firestone.
I got it on Sep 15 Wed. Postmark shows that it took 1 week to deliver the mail. Snail mail. I will post the denial detail later.
Police cannot find my record.
Even with exact location and approx (~20min range), police could not find my record. It seems that there no record as you said.
Dispute credit card charge of Firestone?
At my 1st visit to Firestone (Aug 22), they charged ~$20 for engine oil change. I can dispute for it, although it is not a big deal compared to $2500 repair.
I will ask to a lawyer.
I found that a free legal consultation. I will bring and ask my case to a lawyer.
The transmission shop found no leak.
I asked and got a memo from the trans shop that they found no oil leak from my old trans+diff, on Sep 12 Mon. I will post the memo detail later.
The transmission shop wrote it for me. Now it shows that there is no leak on old the differential.
-------------------------------------------------------
To whom it may concern,
2002 Subaru Legacy Lic#??????? Came to our repair facility with overheated differential assmly needing replacement due to lack of lube, no external or internal leaks were found on disassembly
Any questions call ??
-------------------------------------------------------
Now a next problem appear; How long will it take to damage diff without oil? Do you have any good reference for it?
bigpimpin1971
11-12-2009, 11:50 PM
So you say thats Firestone right? I had problems with Car-X. I will never take any of my car therre again. I went in for a Headgasket and after a new used motor and new tranny and sluggish motor. I'm done. I got BBB and the AG on they ass.
If you hav metal shaving. Thats bad news. BAD NEWS. I would go back and say I came in for and oil change and ya'll fu**ed my car up. Get on them. They are quick to take your money and not fix their mistake.
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