Off the Shelf coilovers versus Bilsteins on a BH wagon

[wiisass]

So need some opinions as I'm new to what works well with these things.

I need something for the car, that will allow me to lower it and fit awesome wheels, but it's also going to need to ride well, as it's a daily, and handle well because it's supposed to. I've been looking at off the shelf coilovers. There's cheaper options available, D2, Ksport, Stance, etc, which would probably be easier and may work alright. Anyone have any feedback on these or any other coilovers on a wagon? And what spring rates seem to work the best? All these off the shelf setups seem to have different rates which I'm attributing it to these companies just don't really know what's best for these cars.

Now the other option is Bilsteins with sleeves and 2.5"ID coil springs and Noltec camber plates. Obviously more work as I would have to modify some things and assemble it all as well as figure out spring rates and decide if I need to revalve the dampers. But it would be a sweeter setup and minimally more expensive than an off the shelf coilover setup. The only problem is I don't know if the OE fitment Bilsteins will have enough travel to lower the car as much as I would like to. Does anyone have any ideas on that? Or would this have to be a lot more work in terms of picking another Bilstein damper and making it fit and doing a lot more stuff that I don't want to.

So any thoughts? Opinions? Ideas?

Tim

[Huffer]

How far are you wanting to lower? Bilsteins have been used on some pretty low vehicles - and to be honest the shock length in the rear of a BH isn't that long anyway.

It depends entirely on your goal - and most of those companies you mention are designing the coilover with the aim of satisfying MOST of their customers - people who are very specific either go custom valving coilover or they build something 100% custom at a much greater cost.

[wiisass]

I want to be able to go low enough to tuck the tire a little.

Do you have any examples pictures of subarus lowered like that on OE fitment Bilsteins? I just need to make sure the shock body itself isn't too tall for how I want the car to sit. I mean if I can lower it enough, but then only have 1/2" of damper travel, that's not going to cut it. I don't want to order a set of Bilsteins and test fit them on the car and then realize that they won't work.

My goal is just to have a good ride, good handling, have the car as low as I want and for it not to cost too much.

The Off the shelf stuff will get the car as low as I want and it won't cost too much, but I'm not sure about the ride or handling. Ride just because of the use of questionable dampers. Handling because everyone is using different spring rates and I haven't done the calcs myself to figure out what would work best.

So if the Bilsteins will go low enough, then I have to find out what the valving is like in them from Bilstein. Then decide if a revalving is necessary. It seems a lot of the Bilsteins I've worked with have agressive rebound damping already and compression isn't that far off is you aren't going too crazy with the spring rates. I mean it won't be perfect but it will be good. But revalves aren't expensive through Bilstein.

Tim

[Huffer]

search under Member Rides 1, look for sansmysti or ndto... both those guys have used springs & struts before and have very good looking cars that handle well.

My bet is that you'll be perfectly happy with some Bilsteins & H&R springs.

[wiisass]

I definitely do not want to run a lowering spring.

I will look at those dudes pictures and see if it is low enough for me. I looked through some stuff before and haven't seen any cars that are low enough on lowering springs.

And I want the height adjustability that coilovers or at least sleeves would afford me.

[Huffer]

Odd. There's nothing wrong with a lowering spring.
So you want to be low enough to tuck the tires BUT you want height adjustability?

Then buy some coilovers. Unless you can find some Ground Control sleeves that work with your chassis, or can be made to work.

[wiisass]

What's so odd? I don't like lowering springs. I don't like not being able to fine tune the height of the car. I don't like not being able to balance the car. Most of the time, it seems like the spring rates they pick are not even close to being a good balance. So in my mind, I would rather stick with stock springs that go to lowering springs.

So yes, I want to be low enough to tuck tire and I want height adjustability. I'm going with a more agressive wheel setup, so I need the height adjustability to get everything to fit right.

Your last line is my whole question in this thread. It's just a buy or make decision that I have to make and I am looking for input from people who have more experience with Subarus and may have made a decision like this in the past.

[wiisass]

Oh and anyone know stock wagon spring rates?

[dodik]

if you want to go with coilovers try sourcing jic, apexi, eifel/prova, tanabe, and few others from jdm land those are the best for our cars but they are pricy around 2k for a new set, and anywhere from 400-1.5k used if you go off the shelf like d2 or ksport they'll do but they are not really street friendly. ride will be pretty harsh on anything not flat. you will feel every crack in the pavement even without bigger sways and strut bars. you can also research koni inserts and just convert your stock struts and throw sleeves on them mind you that in rear you not going to get much more room than you already have, BE/BH, use a pretty small diameter mcpherson strut that is basically non-height adjustable coilover. other things you have to look at is the shocks withing coilovers if they are adjustable and then find the right set of springs for them. there is pretty amount of info between here and nasioc but you should read before making a decision. and definately get suspension first install it and then see how much room you have and which wheels would fit in there and only then buy a set of wheels. gl. oh and tein coilovers are somewhere in between expensive and off-shelf.

[rougeben83]

if you want to go with coilovers try sourcing jic, apexi, eifel/prova, tanabe, and few others from jdm land those are the best for our cars but they are pricy around 2k for a new set, and anywhere from 400-1.5k used if you go off the shelf like d2 or ksport they'll do but they are not really street friendly. ride will be pretty harsh on anything not flat. you will feel every crack in the pavement even without bigger sways and strut bars. you can also research koni inserts and just convert your stock struts and throw sleeves on them mind you that in rear you not going to get much more room than you already have, BE/BH, use a pretty small diameter mcpherson strut that is basically non-height adjustable coilover. other things you have to look at is the shocks withing coilovers if they are adjustable and then find the right set of springs for them. there is pretty amount of info between here and nasioc but you should read before making a decision. and definately get suspension first install it and then see how much room you have and which wheels would fit in there and only then buy a set of wheels. gl. oh and tein coilovers are somewhere in between expensive and off-shelf.

I just want to add that ksport/d2 for all the features they list on paper, aren't that good compared to a coilover/spring strut that is specifically tuned for the application. There's a reason they give 32 "levels" of dampening - they use the same catridge for every car and its up to you to figure out which settings are best. Furthermore, the actual dampening varies so much from one damper catridge to another that its almost impossible to get all 4 corners to match or be adjusted properly (a "4" on one damper =/= a "4" on another damper). People have dyno shocked these coilovers on NASIOC - they are highly inconsistent, something you don't want on your suspension. Also, the springrates on a lot of coilovers are very high - the BE/BH stock springrates are in the 150-200lb/in range which are about 2-4kg/cm - coilover springrates that I have seen are in the 7-10kg/cm, and unfortunately given how little stroke coilovers have, you cannot go lower on the springrate or else risk bottoming out the catridge.

And one of the most common misconceptions people have is that a car feels like it handles on rails from the lack of body roll, but you give up a lot of contact patch from the lack of suspension movement. Contact patch = grip. Grip = handling.
I cannot emphasize this enough on subarus given the front macpherson suspension. Everything suspension engineers do to a car is all about maximizing that contact patch under the situations of turning, accelerating, and braking.

[Huffer]

^^ addendum to that, the shock dyno readings from the highly touted KYB AGX "adjustables" showed the same major flaws. It was near impossible to find four shocks that matched and the adjustments were nearly useless.

Oh, and FWIW IIRC, Bilstein USA is capable of re-valving to do shock matching... which makes things that much nicer. Not too many coilover companies can say they can do that... and if they can expect them to be pretty pricey.

[wiisass]

So any personal experience with any of these setups?

I know all the D2/Ksport are cheap stuff, Tein is kind of OK but still cheap and not really worth paying extra for, the other ones are whatever. I mean as far as I am concerned most off the shelf coilovers under $2k are not as good as I can make a Bilstein or Koni setup.

I'm just looking for actual feedback. Like I have XX brand on my car and it's awesome, the handling is neutral, the ride is a little harsher than stock, but not unbearable, etc.

My real question is, I want to know if there are any budget off the shelf coilovers that aren't total pieces of crap so that I can save the extra time I would need to build this Bilstein setup and do something more productive with it like finish a race car or get drunk.

And Bilstein USA can revalve any of the their shocks for a fee. You can spec it out how you want and they will get it close. I mean you really just spec out a force in rebound and a force in compression at about 2in/s and the rest of the curve is kind of whatever, so it's not the best, but definitely better than most off the shelf stuff would be.

But you can also convert the stuff to take apart and if you can get it on a shock dyno and have a shim kit, there is so much you can do to manipulate the curve to exactly what you want. It's pretty awesome and a great feeling when you do all the dynoing and then the car feels exactly like you simulated.

Tim

[00legacy]

Budget and coilovers don't belong in the same sentence. You really gotta pay to play most of the time with coilovers, unless you get lucky with a quality used find. If you want coilovers, Teins are actually worth the price, Cusco's are a hell of a lot of fun as they are specifically valved for each car and very consistent IMO (though a bit on the stiff side, but very bearable). I know someone who ran Koni inserts w/ Ground Control sleeves, very very very stiff, as in race stiffness.

Everyone bags on Teins, but they do have a U.S. branded distributor that also handles all of their coilover overhauls and they can do custom valving and custom spring rates. Custom valving is less than $100 per strut, different spring rates are cheap as well. Endless also has a U.S. side and I've met a few of the guys who work there, the first 25k maintenance on the coilovers is included in the price, they manufacture possibly the best coilovers money can buy (and dare I say, better than Ohlins). JIC can also do the same as they have a stateside business (they mainly handle all of the Porsche stuff, but can do any of the JIC branded coilovers). I've seen a set of brand new JIC's on ebay going for $899 w/ free shipping, and the spring rates are more friendly for U.S. roads too.

Always make sure you get some with front camber adjustment, as when you go with more and more aggressive wheels, you'll need it. I've run HKS coilovers, Cusco, Teins (SS and Flex), random German brands (sucky on anything but German cars), and some nice JDM Silk Road coilovers (need to be installed, opinion may change :wink: )....my favorite of all of them...the Cusco Zero-1's I ran on my Impreza wagon, even my girlfriend at the time loved them. If you get ones that have dampening adjustment, all you're going to do is endlessly adjust them all the time, trust me :razz:

[wiisass]

Budget and anything can be in the same sentence. Obviously the cheaper coilovers may not have the same quality as more expensive coilovers, that's why I am asking for any personal experience with these to figure out if there are any that are worth it.

Which Teins have you used that you think are worth the price? I've never really been impressed with them on any of the cars that I've driven that had them. I mean they might have felt a little better than real cheap stuff, but not worth the price difference. But I definitely would not trust them to do custom valving. I mean they say they'll do it and it doesn't seem like they even ask about the car. There's a lot that you need to know in order to even try and get close to what the valving should be.

Koni's with a ground control setup can be pretty awesome. It's going to totally depend on what spring rates are picked. The Koni's are adjustable and revalvable.

Oh and, no offense, but your opinion now means nothing to me. Tein is not better than Ohlins in any way, ever. That's retarded.

[dodik]

another thing to keep in mind is ABS, it seems to be pretty picky on when to engage while with hard suspension but it also depends on the road conditions in your area, i had quite a few problems when abs would kick in if you are braking on cracked, broken, bumpy or any other non smooth pavement. scares the crap out of you lol.

and be a little more sensitive to people dont write " your opinion means nothing to me" thats just rude and shouldnt be tolerated. 90% of the time people will give you opinions unless its a specific question.

[Huffer]

So need some opinions as I'm new to what works well with these things.

I need something for the car, that will allow me to lower it and fit awesome wheels, but it's also going to need to ride well, as it's a daily, and handle well because it's supposed to.

So any thoughts? Opinions? Ideas?

Tim

I'm requoting this because I've re-read the thread, and frankly, even though you've asked people for their ideas, thoughts and opinions, you've basically shot them all down because they don't match your holy grail of suspension. I've also read the thread you started on NASIOC asking the same things - and some of the same people on this board have tried helping you on NASIOC too.

Stop being rude to people or you'll earn yourself a lock and a strike-1 warning. You don't tell people their opinions are crap when YOU are asking for them. You'll take the good with the bad, or you'll get the boot.

[wiisass]

another thing to keep in mind is ABS, it seems to be pretty picky on when to engage while with hard suspension but it also depends on the road conditions in your area, i had quite a few problems when abs would kick in if you are braking on cracked, broken, bumpy or any other non smooth pavement. scares the crap out of you lol.

and be a little more sensitive to people dont write " your opinion means nothing to me" thats just rude and shouldnt be tolerated. 90% of the time people will give you opinions unless its a specific question.

Well I don't want the suspension to be hard. I want it to work correctly and only be as stiff as it needs to be. But that would suck if the abs went crazy.

And I did say "no offense."




So need some opinions as I'm new to what works well with these things.

I need something for the car, that will allow me to lower it and fit awesome wheels, but it's also going to need to ride well, as it's a daily, and handle well because it's supposed to.

So any thoughts? Opinions? Ideas?

Tim

I'm requoting this because I've re-read the thread, and frankly, even though you've asked people for their ideas, thoughts and opinions, you've basically shot them all down because they don't match your holy grail of suspension. I've also read the thread you started on NASIOC asking the same things - and some of the same people on this board have tried helping you on NASIOC too.

Stop being rude to people or you'll earn yourself a lock and a strike-1 warning. You don't tell people their opinions are crap when YOU are asking for them. You'll take the good with the bad, or you'll get the boot.

So I shot down the lowering springs idea. I don't like them and don't want them. They aren't going to do what I want.

Everyone else is just saying names and general stuff about them or at least it seems that way. I'm looking for personal experience on the ride/handling that some of the different coilovers will offer. I guess I should have prefaced all of this by saying that I think 99% of the off the shelf asian coilovers are crap. And that I forgot that you guys don't know how awesome I am with this suspension stuff, so the generalities and vague descriptions of how they may feel based on other people's experience are things that I do not need.

So how about this, I'm only looking for opinions on your actual use of certain dampers. And really only Bilsteins or cheaper off the shelf stuff, Stance, D2, BC, etc. Basically, I'm not spending more than it will cost me to build Bilsteins which should be about $1k.

Let's also talk a little more about spring rates. What are stock spring rates? I found newer legacy info, but nothing on a BH. And the spring rates that come with some of these coilovers are very different. Some will be stiffer in the front, some will be stiffer in the rear, it really doesn't make any sense. But depending on what stock rates are, before even knowing much more about the car, you can eliminate some of the coilover setups just based on incorrect spring rate choices.

And I apologize about the last statement in my previous post, I meant to say that Endless is not better than Ohlins in anyway. I mean it may be a little rude, but I'm just being honest. I mean how can I trust an opinion when a statement like that is made.

So let's just talk more technical like now. I want more data and stuff like that. Spring rates, car weights, installation ratios, natural frequencies, damping ratios, etc.

Tim

[dodik]

well it wasnt on my BE but it was on a BD a set of no name coilovers from 02-03 wrx, spring rates were 8k/6k f/r i think, i dont know which dampers or what they were set to i think called NEX or some other crap like that. and they were awesome on the highway outside of the city only. they really sucked on all the bumps BD was way lighter than BE/BH so to make a comfy set up i'd be looking for a spring rate somewhere in between of that and stock rates (hopefully someone posts them here later) and thne just get bilsteins to fit them. and if you can do that with bilsteins get them revalved and put a set of propers springs it will be your best option. not really technical but it probably wont go much into the depths simply of because it isnt popular/feasilble for most DD around here. gl.

[Huffer]

You want technical:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=750470

Googled "Subaru BH spring rate".

If you do some math you should be able to work out the stock spring rate from omahasubaru's post. Omaha is also on www.sl-i.net (http://www.sl-i.net)

[wiisass]

Dodik, the only thing is that BD and wrx's and such had strut rear suspensions. I think with the BH, the installation ratio is going to be different than it would be with a strut so the spring rate comparison between cars doesn't tell you as much.

But I do agree that it does seem like the Bilstein setup would be the best in order to get everything I want. And as long as they can lower the car as much as I want without running out of travel is does seem like the best bet. But if they couldn't lower enough that would be a deal breaker.

Huffer, thanks for that thread. I did look through that before in my research, but it went off topic and I didn't keep reading, but I did this time and found this:
Front 18.9 - 23.8 N/mm (107.9 - 135.9 lb/in)
Rear 39.2 - 42.6 N/mm (223.8 - 243.3 lb/in)
This is stated to be the spring rates for the BH directly from Subaru.

So stiffer rear springs than fronts. So that pretty much means that any off the shelf coilovers with stiffer front springs than rear is going to understeer like crazy on a BH. It also means that the installation ratio in the rear is lower than in the front. Unless the weight balance is way off, but it would need to be heavier in the rear.

Also, those ion springs seem to get softer as they compress. That's the opposite way a progressive spring is supposed to work. And they are slightly stiffer in the front than in the rear, which is the opposite of what it should be if those rates the other dude posted are correct. Not really important to this conversation just a side note.

[jamal]

yes, motion ratio in the rear is way different. the 05+ legacies and 08+ imprezas also have similar setups and use stiffer rear springs stock.

Out of the junk coilovers the stance, megan, and bc racing are regarded as being better than d2 and k-sport. I can personally attest that k-sport and D2 are absolute garbage having driven cars with the setup. Megans are marginally better at best. BC seems fairly well reviewed, but most people really have no idea what they are talking about and can only compare to stock.

The parts from an 08 wrx or 05+ legacy should be close in the rear, although I don't know how the tops and lengths and lower mounts compare to a BE.

[Huffer]

Dylan at DS1 Motorsport has plenty of info on the shock compatibility BE<->BL

[wiisass]

Do I even need to worry about compatability with newer models? I mean the Bilsteins are available. The off the shelf coilovers are available. And it seems like it may or may not be more work to use other rear stuff.

I guess the only reason I would want other stuff was if the rear shock body was shorter and it bolted up at the bottom. Then I wouldn't have to worry about shock travel.

And Jamal, I agree that most people who are reviewing coilovers don't have enough experience with them to give good feedback. And that goes for pretty much any car make/model/whatever. I mean for those brands, you'll find some people that love them and some people that hate them. Some people have run just one kind and others have switched a couple times, but the feedback never really establishes a trend.

So I started just looking at spring rates. The D2's are the only ones that seem to have a split similar to stock on the spring rates with the rear slightly stiffer than the front. The rest seem to have the same springs front and rear with Tein and Stance being softer and Ksport and BC being stiffer. I didn't look at Megan's. But I have heard good and bad things about all of them but from people driving cars that aren't Legacies.

The more and more I look at it, going with Bilsteins seems like the only way to get what I want. And I kind of knew that in the beginning I just don't want to do all that work. But it will probably be worth it in the long run.

Anyone know what front and rear installation ratios are? And sprung and unsprung weights? And sway bar rates and installation ratios?

[wiisass]

So I got talked into trying the BC's for the car. Friend is a dealer for them, so I got them at an awesome price.

They actually ride pretty well. I found out I had some crappy GR2's on the car when I took off the what i thought was stock suspension. The BC's aren't much harsher than it was before. The car is obviously stiffer, but it's not as bad as I thought it would be. So I"m pleasantly surprised with the performance of these things. I would still like to build a Bilstein setup for the car at some point, but I've got so many other projects that need to get finished that I don't have the time to spend on a daily car. So these will work for the time being.

But I also have OE fitment style shocks off the car, so I can mess around with them and see if the Bilstein setup would even let me get as low as I am with the BC setup.