Alignment Issues (Practical and Theoretical)

[Soul Shinobi]

Today I went to Town Fair Tire to get some tires I acquired on Craig's List mounted. I was expecting to pay around $60 for 4 tires mounted and balanced with new valve stems, but then the guy at the counter tells me he'll throw in a 4 wheel alignment (which is $70 on its own) for a total of $99. Alright I'm in, and I remembered Whiteline's recommended touring specs, which I forwarded:

Front Toe: Zero
Front Camber: -1.0 degrees (or max while being even left to right)
Rear Toe: 1mm (here's where it get's tricky, because I know their alignment rack uses degrees instead of mm, I just told them to toe it out as much as factory spec allows. I've recently calculated the spec in degrees, I explain below)

I come back an hour and a half later, and not too surprisingly the technician explains that everything is rusted to shit. Well that happens when you pay $300 for a car from some New Hampshire woodsman who parked it on a pile of salt under a waterfall. Which I'm quite sure he did. The tech couldn't move the rear eccentrics or the fronts. All he did was zero out the front toe. He told me that I have 30 days to try to improve the situation and they'll try again at no charge. I told him I'd give it PB B'laster therapy for a couple weeks. Good guys; good policies anyway.

Oh, and he said that he didn't think the fronts actually had eccentric bolts, which sounded crazy to me, I'm sure you'd agree, right? I think the tech was a bit green.

Before and after specs sheet:

http://home.comcast.net/~subrosa135/car/alignment_specs_001.jpg

Okay, first things first, the guy set the computer up for an Outback, which has different specs. I'll be sure to be clear about that next time. Based on the high right side camber you'd think it'd be noticeably better at left turns. We'll see. After I soak all the bolts in PB B'laster for a few weeks I'm going to go back with the same alignment specs, and a copy of the service manual printout on performing an alignment, in case I get the green guy again.

As for the specs again, they're:
Front Toe: Zero
Front Camber: -1.0 degrees (or max while being even left to right, more like around -0.50 to -0.75)
Rear Toe: 1mm (0.2 degrees)

The reason I chose these specs was because they're modest for my daily driver so I shouldn't expect abnormal tire wear or scary rear end liveliness. Just a little toe out to nudge the rear around the corners, and improved front end corning grip without sacrificing too much straight light braking. My only concern is how that rear toe is going to do in the winter; anyone have experience with non-stock alignment specs on snow? Winter drifting is a definite yes, so I don't know if toe out is going to be too unstable. My snow tires will be on about 1/4 the year, they're 185/75R14, a bit taller than stock. Otherwise it's 195/60R14, a bit lower than stock. While I'm mentioning them, will my off size tires effect my ABS at all?

Kind of funny, I elaborately converted 1mm toe out to degrees by using the exact diameter (http://www.rims-n-tires.com/rt_specs.jsp?showAd=-1) of the stock tire size (http://www.cars101.com/subaru/tiresandwheels.html#legacy), calculating the circumference (http://www.datedial.com/datCircle_Solver.asp) in millimeters then calculating what 1mm would equate to in degrees; ONLY TO FIND that Whiteline now gives the spec in degrees on their site. But hey, good news is I can still do math, I got the same numbers (1mm = 0.2 degrees)! The service manual gives stocks specs in mm.

In closing: Any tips on helping to loosen rusty suspension? Any tips on my choice of alignment specs the conditions?

[jey]

My snow tires will be on about 1/4 the year, they're 185/75R14, a bit taller than stock. Otherwise it's 195/60R14, a bit lower than stock. While I'm mentioning them, will my off size tires effect my ABS at all?

It won't affect ABS as long as all the tires are the same.

[Huffer]

The front struts do have eccentric bolts. The rears don't.

Also - keep in mind that Whiteline's specs might be useful only if the car has been lowered. A lowered car typically has a little negative STATIC camber anyway, which MAY mean achieving a camber of -1.0 can only be obtained by lowering the car or by using adjustable camber plates.

[jamal]

you really, really need to do something to get more camber in the front if you ever want the car to actually handle well. You absolutely need to have at least -1.5°

I took a grinder to the lower holes of my struts and it resulted in -2.5°. With anything less I was wearing off the outside edges of the tires.

[Soul Shinobi]

Also - keep in mind that Whiteline's specs might be useful only if the car has been lowered. A lowered car typically has a little negative STATIC camber anyway, which MAY mean achieving a camber of -1.0 can only be obtained by lowering the car or by using adjustable camber plates.Yeah, I've heard -0.5 to -0.75 are common maximums when stock.


I hit everything with PB B'laster today, it's not looking good (rusty), especially in the rear since you can't get an impact gun on the nuts. Any ideas? Find a shop who has a heavy guy with a long 6 point wrench?

[jamal]

the toe adjustment bolts in the lateral links could be seized to the inner bushings. I had to do this:

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/images/imported/2009/11/latlink-1.jpg

[Soul Shinobi]

http://jamie-online.com/random-jamz/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/facepalm.jpg


Fannnnnnntastic.


Must say, I expected as much. Quick, try to convince me my alignment is actually fine!


EDIT: I'll try to get into the bushings too during my PB B'laster therapy.

[cgoldhill]

Your entire alignment issues could probably be permanently repaired for around 150 bucks, with the added benefit of a symmetrical performance oriented alignment. Replace the front and rear camber eccentrics with standard grade alignment eccentrics. Napa can get ahold of them, or even advance or auto zone. Thats how every major chain repair shop gets them. They run about 25 bucks for a set if you purchase them yourself. Go to a shop and have them impact the old ones out ( one mechanic will have a decent impact gun that will either force the bolt and nut apart or break it, in which case that doesnt matter because you have a replacement). Any shop worth anything should have an oxy acetlyne torch, so really they should be able to free up almost anything including your rear toe adjustments. That should be included in the 4 wheel alignment price. Dial in some front negative static camber with maybe just a pinch of toe out, and then zero out the toe in the rear id say. So maybe -1.2 front camber, -.05 to -.08 degrees front toe and then -.7 rear camber and 0 degress rear toe. You may want even alittle more camber. If you had caster adjustments I'd say max those out.

2 sets of camber bolts for front and rear - $50
Hour or so labor time for installing new camber eccentrics (Calculating labor rates about $80ish or so an hour) - $100
Warrantied alignment - Free
Giving your older subaru a great new feel ( and trust me, even just a balance and rotation with a proper alignment will make a car feel sooooo much better to drive) - Priceless


P.S. from looking at your alignment sheet, it looks like you kinda got screwed. You steer ahead is at -.15 which means if the steering wheel is properly centered to the steering rack, the steering wheel itself was about 15 degrees turned to the left (just a guesstimate) when your before readings were saved. If your wheel was then recentered, the new front toe measurements would read front left -.04 degrees and front right -.05 degrees with the steer ahead now at 0 degrees. Your alignment was already about as good as it could get, unless your steering wheel was off and it bothered you. With your alignment now your still probably gonna be all over the road depending on conditions. Caster causes pull while camber causes drift, almost like slight torque steer except all the time.

[Soul Shinobi]

So, you're saying get a couple set of replacement eccentrics like the ones in the top front of the struts, and put one set in the bottom of the front struts, and the other in the top of the rear. Sounds like a good idea.

The only issue not addressed is the rear eccentrics on the subframe for toe adjustment, which are likely rusted to the bushing inserts like jamal demonstrated. Getting them heated up might help them too, but might that destroy the bushing? Not sure if I can replace that bolt easily, let alone the bushing, may be pricey dealer items.

[jamal]

Replace the front camber eccentrics with standard grade alignment eccentrics.

NEVER, EVER, EVER do that. Aftermarket bolts have a smaller shaft and cam than the OEM adjustment bolt, so it will not fit in the hole correctly.

If you want to use aftermarket camber bolts they should go in the lower front hole and be set to max negative. Then any cross camber can be adjusted with the upper stock eccentric.

in the rear there is no adjustment so aftermarket bolts can go in either hole.

[Soul Shinobi]

After the PB B'laster therapy for a couple weeks, I took it back for a realignment today. I gave them my warnings:

-Car is a Legacy L wagon, NOT an Outback!
-DO NOT adjust tire pressure (I set 38F 34R)

..and specs:

Front Toe: Zero
Front Camber: -1.0 degrees, or max while being even left to right
Rear Toe: -0.2 degrees

When I came back I was stunned that they got anything done in the rear, seeing as it was rusty as hell. They couldn't get the rear toe as negative as I wanted, but I wasn't disappointed, I'm told the tech bitched the whole way. As for the front, it didn't look like they got much of anything done. I asked the guy at the counter to ask the tech why, but it turned out the tech left. The guy at the counter said he'd see to it personally if I'd come back in a half hour, so I did. When I got back he told me he got the front camber bolts loose after taking the torch to it, but he couldn't get any negative camber on the driver's side. He said if I could get it sorted he'd take care of fixing the alignment, still at no charge.

So this is where I am, I need to figure out why the front left caber is so stubborn and what I can do to fix it. My plan was to get an eccentric bolt straight from the dealership and have it installed on the lower hole in the strut. The other option is to buy a pair of aftermarket eccentrics and have them installed on the bottom of each side, and I should be able to get a full -1.0 degrees camber. I was surprised how little that wheel could be adjusted, do you think maybe the knuckle is still partially rusted to the strut?


http://home.comcast.net/~subrosa135/car/alignment_specs_002.jpg

[Soul Shinobi]

I ordered some SPC Camber Bolts (http://www.turninconcepts.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_9_10_1496_1502_1518&products_id=540) from Turn In Concepts (http://www.turninconcepts.com/). I'll put them in the bottom holes up front and see if I can get the camber where I want. Don't know why anyone let me buy them, I'm not sober and waving a credit card around. Okay okay, not true, I'm just a little buzzed.

[Soul Shinobi]

Alright, brought my car back for the third and final time. The news is good--not only were they able to get the camber I wanted up front but they also tried again on the rear and got me -0.22 degrees toe out! However, now that everything that's adjustable is straight, there are a few minor issue that are apparent. Front left caster is off, and so is rear left camber. The car has always seemed to droop visibly on the left side, I'm not sure why; the car seems consistent on the bounce test at each corner. Likely, it is still the struts, which aren't OEM and are getting old, but at least the previous owner has the brains to get KYB GR2s. :grin:

http://home.comcast.net/~subrosa135/car/alignment_specs_003.jpg