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Thread: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

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    Wagon Mafia don sybir's Avatar
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    Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    I'll reiterate this (and probably cut and paste it as a disclaimer). Consider it my wheel and tire primer if you're going to ask my opinion; I want to help people, but I really, really, really don't want people to be disappointed with new wheel setups when they don't fit without a bit of work. I've run a ton of different wheel and tire setups, and a ton of suspension setups. However, without exception, every set has been on aggressive suspension, and I rolled and pulled my rear fenders from the very start, because when I was running my Ground Control coil setup, I RUBBED WITH 215's IN THE REAR.
    That's this setup:



    17x7.5 Gram lights, ET48, 215/45/17 S03's. Ground Control coilover sleeves with 250lb progressive rear springs and 315 fronts. Those rates are stiffer than most lowering springs, and you can see the car isn't slammed. I've since moved to Tein Flex's, and soon to Cusco Zero2R's. I run much bigger setups:



    ....but they're not easy to fit on the car. That's an 18x8.5 ET48 with a very narrow 235/40/18 (more like a 225).

    I've never run lowering springs, so I have no idea how much I would have rubbed on them. I never ran wide tires without coilovers so I have no idea how much I would have rubbed on them.

    That said. If you want to run a beefy wheel and tire setup, run coilovers. End of discussion. You can adjust ride height, you can raise the back if it's rubbing over bumps, you can change spring preload, you have more space on the inside, etc. Firmer rates will let you keep your wheels away from your fenders, but keep in mind that you're, well, keeping them from moving. Subarus handle rough terrain and inclement weather because they have lots of wheel travel, in addition to great balance and AWD. It's a tradeoff; my cars don't handle demolished roads well. They don't like bumpy gravel. Suspension is meant to keep your wheels on the ground at all times....and stiff suspension can't do that on rough terrain.

    So, that said, I can run a pretty mean setup on my car with the suspension and fender mods I've done. I don't rub anywhere, over any bump, in any corner, with a 235/40 on a 17x8 ET48. With a 17x8 and a 245/40/17, I buzzed the front fender liners just a touch under hard cornering. That is on, as most people will agree, a pretty heavily modified car.

    If you are not willing to roll your fenders, don't run 18's.
    If you are not willing to roll your fenders, don't run 17x8's or wider.
    If you are not willing to roll your fenders, don't run over a 225.
    If you are not willing to roll your fenders, don't slam your car with anything other than stockers. Something else might work, but I'm not going to be the person responsible for someone spending hard-earned money and being unhappy.

    My wheel fixation is not natural. Normal people don't spend 25% of the book value of their car on a set of wheels, let alone have a garage full of them. Find someone like me in your local area once you get your suspension. Be nice to them. Ask if you can test fit a wheel in their driveway so you can see if it has any chance of fitting. Understand when they say no and thank them for their time. Be patient. Don't rush car stuff - a better deal will always come along.


    Other facts of the tire world that are very, very important.

    Tire width is not absolute. This is the most important point I can make. A 225 from one manufacturer is not the same size as a 225 from another manufacturer, or even another tire from the same manufacturer. STi OEM tires, an RE070, that's labeled a 225/45/17, are as wide as most 235's, if not more so. The "235" Nexen's I had on the Slipstreams were wider, on a 17x8 wheel, than a 245/40/17 Dunlop UHP tire on 17x8.5's on my STi. Their 225's are the same way. A Falken all-season 225 is narrow, a Falken RT615 is wide......I'm talking at least 1/2" difference. Measured section width is the only thing that matters when ordering tires; you can find it on tirerack, vulcan, edge, etc. Ask, and look around at meets, too; you soon see what tires run narrow or run wide. The most important thing is, run what fits your car. There's no reason to cram a 235 on an 8" rim on your DD with no suspension; you'll get less steering feel, more body roll with the increased grip, rubbing, etc. Run a 225 on a 7.5 instead, and save yourself from heartache.

    I always stick to this idea; you pick the component most important to you, then you make the necessary other mods to keep the car functional/safe along with it.

    This means compromise. Set A as a requirement, then figure out what it requires in systems x,y, and z. Do them along with A if not prior to it, or you're setting yourself up for failure, damage, unsafe vehicle, etc. Do not halfass any parts that affect the safety or control of the 3000lb+ weapon you're trusting your life to.

    You want to run wide wheels and tires, or an aggressive setup, etc - better plan on fender mods and stiff coilovers so you can keep them off the fenders, and you need suspension first.
    You want to run the car low, you run a narrower wheel or tire setup that will tuck in easier.
    You want a cushy ride, you set up your suspension first and then figure out what wheels fit under it.

    "What fits" is a relative question for each car and its intended use - there isn't an easy answer, which is why we ask so many questions in response. I hate to use a cliche, but when dealing with aggressive wheel fitment especially, if you don't know, you shouldn't be trying it, especially on a small-market car that doesn't have a huge tuner base. Only one way to learn, to be sure - but you need to understand the fundamentals of offset, wheel width, suspension clearance, camber curves, scrub radius, etc. It all matters. I can look at the specs of a specific wheel and tell you exactly where it's going to sit in the wheelwell. I can't tell you if it's going to touch your fender under your conditions. You need to understand what the measurements mean to you and how they affect your car.

    Put into perspective, I know exactly what fits on my car with my specific mods, spring rates, camber, ride height, sways, driving style, vehicle loadout, etc. How do I know? I've had 37 different sets of wheels and tires on the car, from 205/45/16's all the way up to 2435/35/18's. Still doesn't allow me to say "this will fit on your car", because I don't own your car, and in many cases have never run a setup like yours. I've never run lowering springs. I went to RS wheels on wide tires years before I lowered my car on a custom setup - custom as in the shop I was working for was owned by the guy that did kit design and fitment for Ground Control back in the early days. I've *never* had an off-the-shelf component (besides OEM) bolt onto the car and work without mods with the exception of a Legacy-specific front sway bar and an ALK. I want to help, but my experience is limited with stock-type suspensions. The last 5 Subarus I've owned have either been on Tein Flex's or a custom Ground Control setup, with no exceptions, and put on that suspension prior to playing with wheel fitments.

    There's my rant for now, I'll add more later. Sorry if my fat fingers made some typos

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    "FNG" boricuajr's Avatar
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    very well said!
    how do you like the gc coilovers?
    im thinking about purchasing gd coil overs from a 02 wrx to run on my BD

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    Wagon Mafia don sybir's Avatar
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    Quote Originally Posted by boricuajr
    very well said!
    how do you like the gc coilovers?
    im thinking about purchasing gd coil overs from a 02 wrx to run on my BD

    Sorry, terminology confusion. When I mention GC, I'm referring to Ground Control, a suspension manufacturer here in NorCal that makes coilover sleeves (adjustable perches, basically). These mount to stock struts and replace the stock coil and spring perch, but have limitations just like lowering springs; they wear out struts faster, and the lower you go, the less travel you have.

    A "coilover" in the generally accepted aftermarket world means a threaded strut body that may or may not allow height adjustment independent of spring preload. Most basic coils still work like a lowering spring, they go lower by lowering the spring perch. This has a 1:1 relationship with reducing suspension travel before you hit bumpstops. This is a bad thing if your goal is to lower your car more than an inch (tops) as less travel means less time/space before you bottom on your bumpstops and your spring rate rises to infinity, give or take. These coil setups (KW Variant 2's, Tein Super Streets, etc etc) have a recommended adjustment range that's only about 1/2" up or down. You can lower them more, but you run into issues with tire/perch clearance and travel, as noted.

    Most higher-end coilovers (KW's are a notable exception) use an independent height adjustment, where the body is fully threaded. The lower spring perch is adjustable so you can set spring preload/sag. The whole strut body then threads into the lower knuckle/hub mount, and is independently adjustable. This means you can adjust ride height independent of spring preload, so you don't eat into travel on a lowered car. Keep in mind that on Subarus, you'll hit the fenders (and rub the axles on the frame in front) long before you bottom the suspension.

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    "Proby" aurelius's Avatar
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    Great read but do you think it's possible to get aggressive without coilovers?

    I'm thinking of 17x7 +38 with a 25mm spacer.
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    Wagon Mafia don sybir's Avatar
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    errrr. That's a narrow wheel, so you might be able to fit that with a really narrow, short tire. Wouldn't recommend it though. Something that small and that narrow is going to look weird, like pizza cutters on the corners. Keep in mind that "aggressive" is partly about a wide wheel with a decent sized tire on it as opposed to just offset.

    To give you an idea, that outer edge of that wheel will be in the neighborhood of 2 inches farther out than your stock setup. That much weight out that far is going to mess with scrub radius really bad. It's like running a 17x9 with almost 2 inches cut out of the inside...without the sidewall slope that you'd get with a 225 or 235 on a 9" to help with clearing a fender.

    I'd start with bolting on the wheel and see how it fits - that spacer is really going to mess up your world.

    Not running coils is a completely different issue. Springs mean you can't do anything if it rubs. Lowering springs are usually softer than a coil setup to boot, so you've got even more chance of heavy rubbing.

    I rubbed, with springs stiffer than most lowering springs, with a 215/45/17 on a 17x7.5 ET48 wheel (the gram lights, above). You're talking a setup that at the very least is going to be 30+mm past that on the outside. Why make your life difficult?

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    "Proby" aurelius's Avatar
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    Alright, I was only contemplating that as the super budget way to go.

    I'm mostly worried about strut clearance because I won't have enough money for coils for a long time. I know it's the safest and smartest option but I can barely get a break finding cheaper ones.

    What rim would be the safest bet to run without coilovers?
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    Wagon Mafia don sybir's Avatar
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    Honestly, aggressive is not a budget-oriented style. You see it more now because guys have figured out what "works" on WRX's through trial and error, and Rota started making those fitments. I'd stick with a 17x7.5 or 17x8 around ET40 and a 215 or 225 if you're worried about strut clearance and you're ok with heavy fender modifications. I've never, ever run lowering springs or anything with big perches, so I'm not much help there. I'm not a big fan of the aggressive movement because it sacrifices utility on Subarus. I like big wheels, but I like big tires wrapped around them - even a 235 on a 8.5 looks narrow or stretched to me. My narrowest wheels are 17x8's, and those with 235's barely fit under my pulled fenders with a 48 offset.......

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    SLi Lurker Lone_legacy's Avatar
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    I have 16X7" ET55 RS 6 spoke wheels that I want to throw wider tires on. Stockers are 205/55/16. I've just lowered the car roughly 1.5" all around on tanabe gf210s on wrx struts. I want to run a 225/50/16. I know the first post states that 225s on stockers will rub. Will I have rubbing issues?
    97 Legacy GT (5MT)
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    SLi Supporter jey's Avatar
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    Possibly - may depend on the tire.
    - Jey
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    t3h ub3r m3mber impreza_GC8's Avatar
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lone_legacy
    I have 16X7" ET55 RS 6 spoke wheels that I want to throw wider tires on. Stockers are 205/55/16. I've just lowered the car roughly 1.5" all around on tanabe gf210s on wrx struts. I want to run a 225/50/16. I know the first post states that 225s on stockers will rub. Will I have rubbing issues?
    I have 225/50/16 on my RS 6-spokes with Tanabe GF210s. I am on a spring/strut combo, not coilovers and the fitment in the back was so close to the spring perch that I had to get the car realigned to make sure it cleared. (Had to change to hardly any negative camber in the back). This is on a GC 2.5RS but the concept is the same. I had to roll the fender lips as well. So it can be done, as long as your alignment is good and you are willing to roll the fenders.
    -'97 Legacy Outback - 5MT, DOHC EJ25D/EJ22T hybrid w/ VF8 turbo @ 11psi - 170 whp / 200 wtq (untuned)
    -'00 Impreza 2.5RS - 5MT, LSD, STI Ver 4 interior, I/H/E, spring/strut combo, still N/A

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    SLi Lurker Lone_legacy's Avatar
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    [quote=impreza_GC8]
    Quote Originally Posted by "Lone_legacy":45rvgln3
    I have 16X7" ET55 RS 6 spoke wheels that I want to throw wider tires on. Stockers are 205/55/16. I've just lowered the car roughly 1.5" all around on tanabe gf210s on wrx struts. I want to run a 225/50/16. I know the first post states that 225s on stockers will rub. Will I have rubbing issues?
    I have 225/50/16 on my RS 6-spokes with Tanabe GF210s. I am on a spring/strut combo, not coilovers and the fitment in the back was so close to the spring perch that I had to get the car realigned to make sure it cleared. (Had to change to hardly any negative camber in the back). This is on a GC 2.5RS but the concept is the same. I had to roll the fender lips as well. So it can be done, as long as your alignment is good and you are willing to roll the fenders.[/quote:45rvgln3]

    I see.. I guess 225s are out then. Thanks for the help. Can I safely assume that 215/50/16 will fit? I know that the same size tires can differ in their overall width. My research has shown that 9" or less should fit without issue. True?
    97 Legacy GT (5MT)
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    Wagon Mafia don sybir's Avatar
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    It should fit, but I'd test-fit one before getting 4 mounted. Totally depends on the tire - narrow vs wide measures.

    I ran 225/50/16's on my OB at stock height with no rubbing issues, but the perches are higher in the rear. I was also doing it in 2001, lol.

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    t3h ub3r m3mber impreza_GC8's Avatar
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    Outback cannot really compare to these regular legacy folks because our spring perches are so much higher, unfortunately for them . I'd be very surprised if you couldn't make a 225 work with minimal rolling. But a lot of people aren't willing to do that.
    -'97 Legacy Outback - 5MT, DOHC EJ25D/EJ22T hybrid w/ VF8 turbo @ 11psi - 170 whp / 200 wtq (untuned)
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    SLi Lurker Lone_legacy's Avatar
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    Quote Originally Posted by impreza_GC8
    Outback cannot really compare to these regular legacy folks because our spring perches are so much higher, unfortunately for them . I'd be very surprised if you couldn't make a 225 work with minimal rolling. But a lot of people aren't willing to do that.
    I have 02 wrx spring perches. Do you think that will provide more or less room than stock BD perches?
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    t3h ub3r m3mber impreza_GC8's Avatar
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    It will be the same, most likely. Outbacks have really tall spring perches because their shock bodies are actually several inches taller than regular legacy.
    -'97 Legacy Outback - 5MT, DOHC EJ25D/EJ22T hybrid w/ VF8 turbo @ 11psi - 170 whp / 200 wtq (untuned)
    -'00 Impreza 2.5RS - 5MT, LSD, STI Ver 4 interior, I/H/E, spring/strut combo, still N/A

    Past ROTM winner! Thanks for the support SL-i!

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    SLi Lurker Lone_legacy's Avatar
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    Quote Originally Posted by impreza_GC8
    It will be the same, most likely. Outbacks have really tall spring perches because their shock bodies are actually several inches taller than regular legacy.
    The previous owner had outback stuts and springs in the back and damn they are long. Long gone now though. I may just stick with stock size tires and save the headache. They are also cheaper and a more common size. Thanks for the advice guys.
    97 Legacy GT (5MT)
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    Wagon Mafia don sybir's Avatar
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    I always stick to this idea; you pick the component most important to you, then you make the necessary other mods to keep the car functional/safe along with it.

    This means compromise. Set A as a requirement, then figure out what it requires in systems x,y, and z. Do them along with A if not prior to it, or you're settingyourself up for failure, damage, unsafe vehicle, etc.

    You want to run wide wheels and tires, or an aggressive setup, etc - better plan on fender mods and stiff coilovers so you can keep them off the fenders, and you need suspension first.
    You want to run the car low, you run a narrower wheel or tire setup that will tuck in easier.
    You want a cushy ride, you set up your suspension first and then figure out what wheels fit under it.

    "What fits" is a relative question for each car and its intended use - there isn't an easy answer, which is why we ask so many questions in response. I hate to use a cliche, but when dealing with wheel fitment especially, if you don't know, you shouldn't be trying it, especially on a small-market car that doesn't have a huge tuner base. Only one way to learn, to be sure.

    Put into perspective, I know exactly what fits on my car with my specific mods, spring rates, camber, ride height, sways, driving style, vehicle loadout, etc. How do I know? I've had 37 different sets of wheels and tires on the car, from 205/45/16's all the way up to 2435/35/18's. Still doesn't allow me to say "this will fit on your car", because I don't own your car, and in many cases have never run a setup like yours. I've never run lowering springs. I went to RS wheels on wide tires years before I lowered my car on a custom setup - custom as in the shop I was working for was owned by the guy that did kit design and fitment for Ground Control back in the early days. I've *never* had an off-the-shelf component (besides OEM) bolt onto the car and work without mods with the exception of a Legacy-specific front sway bar and an ALK. I want to help, but my experience is limited with stock-type suspensions. The last 5 Subarus I've owned have either been on Tein Flex's or a custom Ground Control setup, with no exceptions, and put on that suspension prior to playing with wheel fitments.

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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    subscribed

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    Wagon Mafia don sybir's Avatar
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    Here's an example of wheel fitment, on a standard non-rolled fender. This is on a WRX sedan; imagine you're looking at it from above. This is just the wheel, no tire involved; tires are always centered on a wheel, so you jsut have to understand section width vs carcass width, sidewall design, rim protectors, etc etc etc etc.

    On a BD/BG, the fender lines are probably in the neighborhood of 3/4", or 19mm, farther in. Get used to converting standard to metric; most US guys have a tough time visualizing anything over about 2mm. I'll explain more below.



    Let's start with offset. Offset is the amount of distance a hub mounting flange is set back from the center point of the wheel. There is theoretically no maximum or minimum offset; you're limited by brake and suspension clearance on the positive side, and fender/body clearance as you go more negative. Higher positive numbers mean the wheel is pulled in; the hub mounting flange is moved toward the front of the wheel. As you drop the numbers (also referred to as ET) you get the hub mounting flange closer to the true centerpoint of the wheel. When you go below 0 offset, it goes negative (makes sense) because the hub mounting flange is now inside of the center point of the wheel. Widebody cars with super deep-dish wheels ave low or negative offsets; the wheel moves out from the center point to fill the additional space without getting closer tot he suspension on the inside.

    Now it should be easier to understand how spacers work. Spacers reduce the amount of offset you have by their width. A 3mm spacer lowers your offset, moving it from 55 to 52, for example. Your wheel moves out 3mm, and you gain 3mm of space on the inside of the wheel for suspension clearance.

    Now, how are my new wheels going to fit?

    Easiest way to think about it is to set a reference point - your stock wheels. Width gets split down the middle of the wheel, offset moves it in and out. So if I go from a 6.5 with a 55 offset to a 17x8 with a 48 offset, here's the breakdown.

    I add 1.5" of width to the wheel. This is roughly 38mm.
    That width is split (in a virtual sense) between the front half and back half of the wheel.
    So, 19mm gets added to the inside, and 19mm to the outside. 3/4" closer to your strut, 3/4" closer to your fender.
    That's the first part.

    Now, I measure offset. My new wheels are 48 instead of 55. That moves my wheel face farther out, by 7mm.
    Now the outer edge is 26mm (~1") closer to the fender than my stockers, and the inner is 12mm (~1/2").

    Now, go look at your car. Do you have 1" of space between your tire and your fender? If so, awesome. You can run a decent tire, right? Do you have it at full compression? Probably not. What happens when you put weight in the car? The wheels don't tuck in on Subarus like they do on, for example, Nissans. We don't gain negative camber under compression - we actually lose it after the control arms go level and the top edge of the wheel starts leaning out. Find a picture of a Honda hatchback cornering hard, then a picture of a Subaru cornering hard, like an autox, and you'll get an idea for what we're talking about.

    Well crap, it seems like you can run something big, until you put weight in your car or try to hotrod around some corners. What can you do?
    Well, you can roll your fenders. That means the new big wheel and tire won't hit the fender lip as quickly. Your other option is to run stiffer springs, so the wheel doesn't move as much up into the fenderwell under a given load. Run something really wide, and you need both. Many aftermarket lowering springs are designed for looks, not performance. The spring rates often aren't that much stiffer than stock. Now your wheels are closer to your fenders to start with, and will get even closer under load or cornering. This is the main reason people run coilovers on the street; they're not necessary for performance, they're an extra maintenance hassle, they're expensive, but they have firmer spring rates and are adjustable so you can raise or lower the car as much as you want instead of being stuck with what a lowering spring manufacturer thinks you want. It's even more of an issue on our cars, where we're not running parts designed for the weight or suspension designs (Legacies are higher in the front than Imprezas, so you need a longer strut or a taller spring); coilovers let you adjust it yourself instead of being stuck with what works on a WRX. To give you an idea, the pictures you see of my wagon over the past 3 years or so - that's as high as I can safely go on the front suspension. I can't raise the car more. WRX dampers are too short and I start pulling the strut body out of the lower knuckle mount because it's not threaded in for the full length.

    Hope that helps a bit.

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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    Very informative. If this thread wasn't already stickied, I'd sticky it. Not sure whether you are speaking directly about my situation or in general. Either way, useful stuff.
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    Wagon Mafia don sybir's Avatar
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    Speaking in general; this got spun out of an earlier thread a few years back. Hope it helps!

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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    i have 17x8 and it barely rubs but i still dont want it to obviously
    but i dont know how to fix it and changing suspension is completely out of the question for my part time job budget
    so what is rolling your fenders exactly? n how could i makethe fenders a tad wider to stop the rubbing?
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    Err, that's what rolling fenders is - getting more space in the wheelwells to stop rubbing. Very simply, you're folding up the inner fender lip for clearance. There are lots of ways to do it incorrectly, and a few ways to do it correctly. All require patience and finesse. Without trying to be offensive, if you don't understand what you need to do to your fenders to get more clearance after looking at the wheelwell, you should probably find someone to do it for you; it's very easy to cause permanent damage to the body of your car if you go at it too aggressively or without understanding the process. There's more than I can explain here, but a google search will turn up the different tools used as well as a number of tutorials on the process.

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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    thanks thats wat i figured but just wanted to make sure :P
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    I have a bone stock 1996 Subaru Legacy L wagon. Right now its got old impreza rims with 195/60/r15 tires on it. I want to bigger, wheels and tires but I just don't have the budget for suspension mods or fender stuff. Any tips or ideas on what I can do? Much appreciated!

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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    You can go up to 16" or even 17" and just the bigger wheel seems to improve the look without any suspension mods. All other Subaru models' wheels are direct replacements (except the 2005+ STi) so just look around for a good deal.
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    Quote Originally Posted by jey
    You can go up to 16" or even 17" and just the bigger wheel seems to improve the look without any suspension mods. All other Subaru models' wheels are direct replacements (except the 2005+ STi) so just look around for a good deal.
    Cool thanks man! Any idea what type of offset I'm looking for? Theres a few good deals on nice looking wheels on the craigslist in my area... Might pounce on them soon.

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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    im planning on running this setup, debating on redrilling or running a adapter spacer.
    8.5" front +37 after 20mm spacer, +17
    9" rear +45 after 20mm spacer, +25

    might be a little too crazy right?

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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooper
    Cool thanks man! Any idea what type of offset I'm looking for? Theres a few good deals on nice looking wheels on the craigslist in my area... Might pounce on them soon.
    Please read the stickied threads:

    viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12004
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    Re: Widest tires you can run without rubbing.

    ok so working out the deal with the guy I am getting some minty rota sdrs in 17X7.5 in trade for my snowflakes and all season. if i want tires i can buy some all seasons off him for $50 but they are 235/45/17. it's not dropped still running stock suspension.

    these were run on his '08 lgt

    thought one fenders need rolled. cheapest way is a by using a baseball bat (or at least I have heard) any thoughts or suggestions on that?

    thought two is that seems like it might be too wide and throw off my handling. it might be better to see if I can buy some used tires for about the same price. either way i have have spend $60 to mount and balance them.

    thought 3 is if i do get smaller tires should i get 225 or 215 for my wheels?
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