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Thread: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) INFO!!

  1. #31

    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    Here's some helpful info I've put together elsewhere

    Thread about swapping subaru brakes:

    http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... p=18085854

    Might be missing a little bit of info specific to newer legacies so I'll have to update it.

    Here's all the different brakes on pretty much every subaru in north america:

    http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=1529797

    and a general brake FAQ:

    http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=30989

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    YAY!! jamal's alive!!!!!!!

    Have you found any mistakes in my info?

    -Chuck

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    haha- looks good so far

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    Here's a quick comparo of the USDM 98 GT brake caliper vs the USDM 04 GT caliper:
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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    i have a 2008 legacy limited. i put ebc sport rotors front and back, red stuff pads on the front and hawk pads on the back. will those red calipers (wrx) work on my car

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    Quote Originally Posted by invi
    i have a 2008 legacy limited. i put ebc sport rotors front and back, red stuff pads on the front and hawk pads on the back. will those red calipers (wrx) work on my car
    Your car has:
    Brakes Power assisted anti-lock, 4 channel with EBD (elec. brake force distribution),
    11.5 vented front disc
    10.6 solid rear disc

    You have 17" wheels, so yes you could fit the 4 piston/2 piston brakes on your car. Not really worth it though because your car still weighs about the same as the 00-04 Legacy, and has just 5 more HP on the engine.
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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    backstory ... So I have a BD 2.5GT (daily driver for the mrs.) that has been on the backburner for a long time, give or take 10 years. Around 3 or 4 years ago I bought GR-2s with whiteline springs and end links. I finally installed the struts a week ago. I am excited about the sube again. The long term plan was a '04 STi swap, somehow I had it in my head that as the donor cars aged the price would become affordable. But something happend ... the popularity of swaps has exploded and I dare say increased the cost (damn VW, porsche, & sandrail guys) ... and my car got old which forces me to question the practicallity of a $8-10k investment in a 14 year old chassis. To make matters worse I start to worry that the number of guys messing with BD legacys has probably decreased from a few to even fewer. Also, with stock turbo LGT's, spec b's, and 3.0Rs rolling around would a sleeper BD really be cool anymore. Would I actually be smarter to by a STi or LGT? Had I let my dream die when I wasnt looking?!

    Enter Chuck and Huffer .... the dream is alive!

    Huffer I totally agree with your message here;

    Quote Originally Posted by Huffer
    ^^^ all good info Chuck, but maybe preface the thread with something like "figure out WHY you need a bigger (size) brake system, keeping in mind that bigger systems are not always better depending on your application". I hate seeing people put massive brakes and end up complaining that their 60-0mph time is worse...because they just added a whole bunch of unsprung weight.
    One of the things the older chassis have going for them is potentially reduced weight. Watching everything car bloat up lately fills me with flashbacks of the mid 70's. Thankfully I doubt we will see big blocks with under 200 hp again but 4000 lb cars with 400 hp are also a step in the wrong direction. It is a cruel irony that many mods although cool actually decrease performance due to added weight (brakes and/or drivetrain).

    So are weights available for the upgrades above?

    What is the penalty for each step?

    Is the LGT setup the sweet spot for cost and weight are minimized, and performance is maximized when compared to the alternatives?


    I am also trying to pull together a similar camparison for popular engine swaps EJ207, EJ255, EJ257, EZ30, EG33, EZ36. For some reason it is really hard to get consistent numbers I will post what I find on SLi. The goal is to minimize weight, and cost at a torque level agreeable to the 5MT.

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    Unfortunately I don't have weights - there are a lot of variables depending on if you use stock pads, rotors and not just the calipers.

    Put it this way - the 04 LGT FRONT brakes are heavy, but they have better cooling vanes in them to allow heat to dissipate faster. They are marginally heavier than the 1998 GT Front brakes.
    The rears are on the 04 LGT are significantly heavier buy a few pounds because the rotor size is nearly an inch larger. Keep in mind though, that neither upgrade is "necessary".

    For the lightest factory brakes, a set of STi Brembos is the only place you can go without doing crazy fabrications or going to a brake manufacturer like Stop Tech for their "BBK" hardware.

    The greatest weight saving on a brake system is in this order:
    Caliper + bracket
    Rotor
    Pads

    You could easily swap in a Forester XT/Legacy GT or WRX engine and keep the same size brakes on your BD - just upgrade your pads and spend the money on grippy tires.
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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    great advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huffer
    Keep in mind though, that neither upgrade is "necessary" ..... You could easily swap in a Forester XT/Legacy GT or WRX engine and keep the same size brakes on your BD - just upgrade your pads and spend the money on grippy tires.
    agree 100%, I have never had a complaint with the BD brakes. I have no plans to race the car, I just want to be able to pass on single lane highways with confidence. The car is torquey around town but falls on its face once I move into the oncoming lane! What I would love to do is take some serious weight out of the car ... then I need less HP and smaller brakes.

    That said the brakes are 14 years old when the time comes to rebuild/replace I imagine that the cost to upgrade will be negligable so it is great information to have.

    Also if I stumble across a engine donor car it helps to know what brakes on on what because I may decide to take the brakes as well.

    I wonder if there is a bracket to use brembo's with smaller vented rotors?

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    I've been asked this question over and over through Private Messages.

    If your not looking for incrediable braking and have no plans for track duty then a simple combination of:
    - EBC/Hawk Pads
    - Generic Vented Rotors
    - Stainless Steel brake lines

    The pads on their own will yield fantastic 60-0 times :-D

    If the calipers are an issue for use vs age then a simple trip to your local aftermarket parts depot will happily have rebuilt calipers in stock or you can source 02+ 2.5RS/WRX brakes.. Same jazz as the BD's 2-piston brakes :-D

    I'll see if i can find caliper & rotor weight. I doubt pad weight is a concern.

    -Chuck

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    BTW - the new BRZ uses 2 piston front brakes and 1 piston rears, on a lightweight 200hp car.
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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckthefuk
    I'll see if i can find caliper & rotor weight. I doubt pad weight is a concern.
    -Chuck
    Thanks Chuck.

    I am not worried about pad weight. The rotor and caliper weights would be great info.

    If an option existed to reduce unsprung weight while maintaining equivalent braking performance I would consider that a great "upgrade".

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    ^^ you could always use used rotors. They'll have been turned to be thinner, but still within safety spec.

    Not really worth the risk. Other alternatives would be the 2 piece type rotors - they have a lot less mass and are used for racing applications mainly. At some point you reach a critical juncture between cost vs. actual results produced.
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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    chuck

    Can you revised the H6 upgrade to where you need the whole caliper out of 2000-2004 legacy (probably more) because the cardone/h6 bracket won't work with the older phase 1 rear caliper. The phase 1 calipers uses 1 bolt and a stud and its bolted to the bracket. While the H6 upgrade uses slide pins.


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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    So from your post it seems that the

    1) 95-99 Phase 1 rear 1-pot caliper is not compatible with the H6 bracket.
    Solution --> Upgrade to 00-04 Legacy Phase 2 rear 1-pot calipers

    2) Based on the H6 caliper p/n = 26625AE000 and a cross-reference search @ opposed forces it shows that the same p/n is used on all 00-04 Legacy / L-Outback H4-H6 / Baja

    3) So does this mean that the BE/BH guys don't need the bracket and can go directly to the rotors?

    4) And does this now mean this upgrade needs new pads? I am also confused as to how the GD impreza calipers work with this bracket? Considering the caliper itself is only used on the BE/BH chassis p/n = 26692AE000.

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    1) Correct, Phase 1 needs the whole caliper w/bracket from 00-04 legacy phase 2 rear 1 pot calipers

    2) Yup. This upgrade is more for the bd/bk (dunno about the previous legacy) since the 00-04 legacy/outback/baja comes with it stock

    3) No, I believe BE/BH already come with it stock already

    4) Basically buy everything off a 00-04 legacy (rear calipers w/brackets, rotors, pads and clips). The phase 1 impreza's also have the same rear calipers as the bd/bk (1 bolt). Phase 2 (99 and up) started to have the 2 slide pins so it will work with the H6 bracket.

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    bump for WRX/2.5RS caliper / bracket info?

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    I can't find any info on the wrx/2.5rs rear brackets but this list the sizes of the rear rotor and the rear pad numbers

    Rear Brakes

    266x10mm
    The most common Subaru rear rotor. It uses a single piston sliding caliper, of which there are a few variations. Early Legacy sedans (non-turbo) and Imprezas have a smaller piston than Legacy wagons and turbos, and there are a few bracket/caliper revisions.
    Applications:
    90-99 Legacies/Outbacks with rear discs non-turbo
    93-07 Imprezas with rear discs (except sti, 06-07 wrx)
    98-08 Foresters with rear discs
    Bajas

    274x10mm
    This rotor is on most 05-09 Legacy/Outbacks. The exception is the LGT and probably the 3.0R. Parking brake is 170mm. Seems to be only be on these models.

    286x10mm
    2008+ impreza/wrx
    2009+ forester (with rear discs)
    2010+ Legacy 2.5i
    uses a 190mm parking brake and 1-pot sliding calipers.

    290x10mm
    This is well known as the H6 rear rotor. The Legacy caliper is the same as most other 99-07 1-pot Subaru calipers so you can upsize to this rotor simply by purchasing the brackets and correct pads
    Applications:
    00-04 Legacy/Outback non-brighton
    SVX (5x114.3)

    Bonus points: SVX bracket + this rotor in 5x100 = old style caliper H6 upgrade (probably).

    266x18mm
    This is the Legacy turbo rear rotor. The caliper is similar to the other calipers but is wider to accomodate the vented rotors. I hear it was also found on the v1 WRX (93-94).
    Applications
    91-94 Legacy turbo

    290x18mm (170mm parking brake)
    290x18mm (190mm parking brake)
    290x18mm (2010+ Legacy GT)
    This is a new rotor size for Subaru (in the US anyway). It uses either a 2-piston opposed caliper or a 1-pot slider. The 2-pot will not bolt up to other Subarus without something like the Kartboy brackets or having a new backing plate pressed onto the spindle. There are three versions of this rotor, one is for the regular 170mm parking brake, the others are for the sti 190mm parking brake in both 5x100 and 5x114.3
    Applications:
    05+ Legacy GT (1-pot)
    06-07 WRX (2-pot)
    SVX (5x114.3) (only in JDM-land)
    Some older non-us spec-b Legacys and wrx/sti models (see rear brake redux)

    Note: The LGT uses a different brake line than older Legacies and Imprezas. So I think you need to grind down part of the caliper where the line mounts to get it to work on an Impreza. The LGT lines are a different shape and mount and a different angle and you can't use them.

    316x20mm (5x100)
    316x20mm (5x100, 170mm parking brake)
    316x20mm (5x114)
    STi brembos. There are multiple versions of this disc. One for the 04 STi, one for 05-07, one for 08+ and one with a 170mm parking brake drum. There's an explanation how to install rear brembos on other cars a little farther down. 08+ sti rear rotors have a different backspacing.
    Applications
    04+ STi

    320x18mm
    Hey that's an odd size now isn't it. I was previously wrong with my thinking the Tribeca uses the same rotor as an STi. It does have the same bolt pattern (5x114.3) though. AFAIK, it uses a 170mm parking brake but don't quote me on that.

    Some D-plate numbers
    I should note that the caliper bracket, and not the caliper, is what determines pad shape. So while there are a few different pads, in some cases the calipers are the same.
    Rear 1-pots

    D471:
    1990-1999 Legacy
    1993-1998 Impreza
    1993-1997 SVX

    D770:
    2000-2004 Legacy
    2005-2009 Legacy GT
    1999-2002 Impreza

    D1004:
    11/2002-2005 WRX
    2003-2007 Impreza

    D1114:
    2005+ Legacy 2.5i/Outback (incl 2010+)
    2008-2011 Impreza
    2008-2012 WRX
    2009+ Forester

    D1124:
    2010+ Legacy GT

    FHI 4/2-pots
    Front: D647 (or D1170, D460, D1182)
    Rear: D461

    STi Brembos
    Front: D1001
    Rear: D961

    Reference: Jamal's nasioc link from top of the page (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... p=18085854
    )

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    nissan 2 pots

    I looked into the possibility of using a DBA celica ST205 rotor on the rear with the nissan 2pots,
    http://www.dba.com.au/catalogue/online-catalogue/

    DBA 649 (WRX)
    Description Dimension
    Vent Vented
    Diameter 266
    Height 67.5
    Thickness 18
    Min Thickness 16
    Centre Hole Dia 58
    Bolt Holes 5

    DBA 653 (STi)
    Description Dimension
    Vent Vented
    Diameter 290
    Height 67.5
    Thickness 18
    Min Thickness 16
    Centre Hole Dia 58
    Bolt Holes 5

    DBA 561 ( Celica ST205)
    Description Dimension
    Vent Vented
    Diameter 315
    Height 59
    Thickness 16
    Min Thickness 15
    Centre Hole Dia 55
    Bolt Holes 5

    I see some problems here ...

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckthefuk
    bump for WRX/2.5RS caliper / bracket info?
    there are three different rear brake setups for the 266x10mm rear rotors. The early one that's pre-99, one that covers something like 00-04 depending on the model/year, and then a later 04-07 bracket. The 05+ non-gt legacy and 08+ impreza use a different size rotor and caliper setup that we don't really need to be concerned about because it's not any bigger or better than "H6" brakes.

    The 90-99 setup uses that pin and bolt setup. You can probably do an H6 upgrade on these with an SVX caliper bracket but I haven't actually confirmed that.

    The 99+ brakes are what's found on, for example, an 02 WRX. They use the same pads as the H6.

    The 04+ brakes use the same actual caliper as an 00-04, but the bracket and pad are different. If you have an 04 wrx and want to do the H6 upgrade, you need to get the older pad style. On that note, if you want to upgrade your pre ~03 LGT or RS with the bigger WRX front brakes, you have to use an 02 WRX bracket because they don't interchange between the caliper styles.

    As for the term "H6," ALL 00-04 Legacies have these brakes, regardless of whether they are an L, GT, H6, whatever.

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    quick update.

    I was very close to going with a nissan setup with subaru rotors. I planned to design and fabricate my own cnc "kartboy style" brackets (no bushings or spacers). As luck would have it, I found a JDM FHI 4/2 subaru setup for less money and much less work .... but still far more work and expense than a H6 rear upgrade for equivalent performance.

    Thanks again to all the tech contributors.

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    added info about rear 2-pot backing plates .. thanks Waren/Jamal/25rs.com

    added info about H6 upgrades for pre 2000+ Legacy

    ALWAYS DOUBLE CHECK MY INFO! BE SAFE NOT CHEAP!

    -Chuck

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    In order to run the 05 lgt calipers do you need the bracket too?
    1996 Subaru Legacy L

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    Quote Originally Posted by Baddog
    In order to run the 05 lgt calipers do you need the bracket too?
    Yes you need the caliper/bracket for it. I did this to my car viewtopic.php?f=12&t=23399

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    USDM 04' STi Brembo 4-piston up front are direct bolt on.
    For 2000 legacy gt?

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    Yes

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    Thx Chuck
    what about the 05-0? front caliper blot on ?
    it is batter than the 2000 oem or is the same thing

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    Quote Originally Posted by Chogokin
    Thx Chuck
    what about the 05-0? front caliper blot on ?
    it is batter than the 2000 oem or is the same thing
    Yes it bolts on. It is larger, and requires 17" rims minimum. Is it better? They weigh a whole lot more than your brakes. Does a rim almost completely filled out with brake discs look awesome? IMO YES!!!
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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    than im gonna go for 05 caliper n dis sinc i have the 17" rim n save me some
    money compear to sti brembo
    thx mike

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    Re: Brake Upgrade - All Generations (FHI, Brembo, Nissan) IN

    I know this is an old thread but do 05 lgt brakes bolt on to first gen legacy ss or do I need the backing plates or hubs or ebrake setup or adapter brackets? I bought 05 lgt calipers and I don't know if I need anything else. Never seen this swap on a first gen before.
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