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Thread: ej20t or ej25???

  1. #31
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    Forget N/A, get some air blown into your engine. It's fun.

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    Th3 EviL OvErLORd Reason's Avatar
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    Quote Originally Posted by lord flashheart
    Ps ill have it running by Wednesday. And I'll bet you it will make 220.
    I'm going to have to quote this and see your guys if so
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    t3h ub3r m3mber lord flashheart's Avatar
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    Metric motors is the bomb. Infact when I was looking to get a motor rebuilt I discovered the dealer doesn't actually rebuild them. Instead They send it to metric motors, and metric rebuilds it. They build 800 HP SUBARU motors all the time. The long block they built for my outback is the same long block they build to handle 800hp. Granted my motor puts out a humble 300 because I don't want to fry the trans and I don't want to go crazy.. but yeah they are freaking awesome.
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  4. #34
    t3h ub3r m3mber lord flashheart's Avatar
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    Quote Originally Posted by Reason
    Quote Originally Posted by lord flashheart
    Ps ill have it running by Wednesday. And I'll bet you it will make 220.
    I'm going to have to quote this and see your guys if so
    This also depends on if my outbackXT is running. As I need a car. And my gf would kill me if I took the motor out of the only running car I have. The outback and my truck are both down.
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    Im lost now, I didn't noticed you had an XT. What is the car withtl the high comp build going on?
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  6. #36
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    ^ yea your not the only one that doesn't understand what is going on...

    <--still doesn't believe in the mythical 220chp $1500 NA EJ25 with no EM. and if the mythical creature does exist, can't imagine how it is only $1500 and if that is anywhere near the "anybody can get it for that much" price tag...
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    Quote Originally Posted by StatGSR
    ^ yea your not the only one that doesn't understand what is going on...

    <--still doesn't believe in the mythical 220chp $1500 NA EJ25 with no EM. and if the mythical creature does exist, can't imagine how it is only $1500 and if that is anywhere near the "anybody can if for that much" price tag...

    +1. if its under $1500, its a way better option than a WRX swap. ill be watching this to see the results.
    -Joey

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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    Yeah I have a outbackxt, it spun a rod bearing so I had, the same company built me a ej257 long block with forged internals, acl race bearing, custom wisco pistons, cams etc.
    And to be honest I really don't care if you believe me. And you act like I'm the first one to do this I know 2 other locals who have this motor, infact when my outback was running I raced a guy with a 1994 legacy turbo and he swapped his ej22t out for it.. I won, but he gave my car a pretty good run for its money. Later I talked to him and he told me about the built 2.5 he stuck in it and that's where I started entertaining the idea. I was also curious about the ej25/ej22 hybrid hi comp, so I asked metric about it,and he told me that he could build me a 2.5 n/a that would stomp the 2.2/2.5 hybrid. And he has always impressed me before so I told him to build it. Usually when I race a 2.0 wrx I smoke them, where as this legacy put up a dang good fight. It was closer to beating me than most of the 2.0 wrx and it made one bell of a good sound. Btw the n/a motor is going in a 1995 legacy sedan. See my rally car project thread in members rides. The reason I see people not doing this swap is because everyone wants to say 'I put a wrx engine in my car' everyone is so obsessed with turbos that people never look at other alternatives and no one has any faith in n/a.
    Is it so hard to believe that a engine that does 175hp at 10:1 can make 220ish HP at 14:1 with headers, port and polish, intake, injectors etc? Well wat ever..
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    Quote Originally Posted by lord flashheart
    And to be honest I really don't care if you believe me. And you act like I'm the first one to do this I know 2 other locals who have this motor, infact when my outback was running I raced a guy with a 1994 legacy turbo and he swapped his ej22t out for it.. I won, but he gave my car a pretty good run for its money. Later I talked to him and he told me about the built 2.5 he stuck in it and that's where I started entertaining the idea. I was also curious about the ej25/ej22 hybrid hi comp, so I asked metric about it,and he told me that he could build me a 2.5 n/a that would stomp the 2.2/2.5 hybrid. And he has always impressed me before so I told him to build it. Usually when I race a 2.0 wrx I smoke them, where as this legacy put up a dang good fight. It was closer to beating me than most of the 2.0 wrx and it made one bell of a good sound. Btw the n/a motor is going in a 1995 legacy sedan. See my rally car project thread in members rides. The reason I see people not doing this swap is because everyone wants to say 'I put a wrx engine in my car' everyone is so obsessed with turbos that people never look at other alternatives and no one has any faith in n/a.
    Is it so hard to believe that a engine that does 175hp at 10:1 can make 220ish HP at 14:1 with headers, port and polish, intake, injectors etc? Well wat ever..
    its not that i dont believe it cant be done, i know its been done many many times.
    the thing i find hard to believe is that it can be *easily* done for under $1500 and without EM. also, to the whole wanting to be able to say "i put a wrx engine in my car", i'm the opposite (to a point, i'd like me an ez30r or eg33). i'd rather build up a powerplant than just swap one in. i'd really like to have a >200HP NA EJ, the power curve would be so much smoother and more usable than a turbo setup. but when you compare prices for building up an NA engine, to turboing the engine, (with the same, somewhat low HP goals like 220CHP) the turbo option usually comes out cheaper and easier. i really do want to see some dyno sheets on your engine though, and a parts list as well. also, what EJ25 are you speaking of that has 175CHP stock? the EJ251 from the SOHC RS's only made 166CHP, and that was an optimistic power rating from SOA.
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    ^ this, i know an ej25 can make it its been done, but the parts list doesn't equal 1500, let alone paying somebody to put it together. expect 700 for pistons alone, plus 300 for reground cams, then add a good port and polish? hell a professional one of those can cost you 1000 on easy.....

    thats why i say BS, if your builders have some magical way to put down that kinda power on the cheap, it needs to be shared with the subaru world, cause nobody else has done it.

    also talking about a tleg with a na 2.5 vs new turbo outback... the weight difference alone is a huge advantage for the tleg.
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    Quote Originally Posted by StatGSR
    ^ this, i know an ej25 can make it its been done, but the parts list doesn't equal 1500, let alone paying somebody to put it together. expect 700 for pistons alone, plus 300 for reground cams, then add a good port and polish? hell a professional one of those can cost you 1000 on easy.....

    thats why i say BS, if your builders have some magical way to put down that kinda power on the cheap, it needs to be shared with the subaru world, cause nobody else has done it.

    also talking about a tleg with a na 2.5 vs new turbo outback... the weight difference alone is a huge advantage for the tleg.

    *high five*
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    Well, the headers, injectors, intake, etc is not included. Again I didn't build it. So I don't know what went into it. I said this is what I want this is how much I have to spend. He said here you go. Also this didn't occur to me till now, but he may be giving me a deal on this since I spent $7000 last month at the shop. Regardless, what I speak is the truth.

    The power curve is the reason I chose the n/a ej over the ej20k swap. I sacrificed 60 whatever HP for n/a. As it is a rally cross project and turbo lag is a real pain on dirt.

    And yes I am aware that the legacy was like a quarter of a ton lighter. Which is why his car kept up. Seeing how my car has much more power. It compensates for the extra weight.

    But to be honest I really tired of arguing, so your right I lied there is no 200+ HP n/a motor for $1500. End of discussion. If u want to see how the motor plays out, follow my 1995 build thread. The outback is still having problems so I haven't started the swap yet.
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    Quote Originally Posted by lord flashheart
    ...what I speak is the truth...


    ...your right I lied...
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    He is ending it because he doesn't want to go back and forth with the same shit. If he dropped 7k earlier the guy is probably giving him a deal. If that's the case he is getting it for what he said. What's the big deal? Wait for the car do ne done. If be shows dyno numbers then you can get on his ass if they aren't at what was expected.
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    Quote Originally Posted by Reason
    He is ending it because he doesn't want to go back and forth with the same shit. If he dropped 7k earlier the guy is probably giving him a deal. If that's the case he is getting it for what he said. What's the big deal? Wait for the car do ne done. If be shows dyno numbers then you can get on his ass if they aren't at what was expected.
    i understand that hes done arguing, i just thought his post was contradictory.

    and if he doesnt know what he spent on the engine, then i fully expect him to have dyno numbers where he said they would be. i dont mean to get on his ass, and if i offended, i am sorry, its the internet lol. i really do want to see a parts list and dyno sheets. ive always liked the concept of building up these engines for NA power, but it always seemed illogical from a budget standpoint when you compare it to used turbo parts and swaps. an engine ive been thinking about for a long time is an NA high comp EJ207 (JDM STI engine).
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  16. #46
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    I'm not offended, im just tired of the "yes it does" "no it dosent". When everything is hooked up and I find money to dyno it. I don't doubt that this motor will put its money where its mouth is. If it doesn't I'm a big enough guy to admit when I'm wrong. But I'm still confident. If these numbers don't sound right tell me.
    The dyno numbers I see there is a 45hp loss in the transmission so
    I'm accounting for 45hp loss to mechanical drag. And the Target is 220chp with 10hp margin. Which means I need to hit 175whp minimum For this to be a 'success' in my book.
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    I'm not sure at all how much power is lost in all the rotational mass in the drivetrain. But 175 sounds about right, I think it could be a tad lower though. the stock rs engine made 166 chp (again, according to SOA, I think that's a high estimate) but only put down ~90-110AWHP, depending on the dyno, altitude, temp, humidity, etcetc. And does your builder have a dyno in their facility? If so you could probably get them to let you do a few pulls so they could have some numbers to use for advertising or the like.
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    They don't have one you drive onto. They have one that you bolt to the motor to. But it takes a while and dyno time is like $65ish per hour (friend pricing). But it takes a few hours to set it up, tune it, and test it. And this dumb outback has been putting a HUGE dent in the budget for my rally car. If the outback hadn't blown a motor, the rally car budget would be about $5000 bigger. And dyno time would be no biggie..
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    Are you on a local forum for your area at all? If so, try to set up a dyno day with a bunch of other members and a local shop with a dyno that's down with the subaru community. It gets a lot cheaper that way, and its also a great way to bring the local subaru community together.
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    yeah im planning on it, i just missed the last one, it was like 3 weeks ago.
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    I'm sorry, but the only reason i am being a prick about this is because this thread is about somebody deciding between and ej20t and a ej25 na and looking for technical information, and your swaying that person with an engine that you 1) don't have running in a car yet, 2) don't know the specifics about what has been done to it, and 3) are basing its value on what is likely deflated price because of your prior business with company/ or your actually getting much less than you think you are.

    I understand your choice as to go with this motor for your project (you dont want turbo lag for a rally cross car, i get it thats why i went eg33), but your strong bias towards a motor you know very little about is extremely unhelpful in what should be a very technical thread.

    now if you said hey, these guys will make a ej25 motor for $1500-2500 or whatever that has XXX cams, XXX CR pistons, and a P&P head. and here is what mine made with injectors, exhaust and intake on a stock ecu <insert dyno plot here> then i would feel your argument would be justifiable, and belongs in a technical thread, but you talked about the motor and how great it is when at the same time you don't know much of anything about it.

    That said, i hope you get the results you are looking for and i also hope you will share with us what was actually done to your 2.5 when you get the chance. Again i apologize if i seam rude, but i hate when threads get flooded with speculation and not facts/truths, anybody can promise something, but what matters is what they deliver.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reason
    He is ending it because he doesn't want to go back and forth with the same shit. If he dropped 7k earlier the guy is probably giving him a deal. If that's the case he is getting it for what he said. What's the big deal? Wait for the car do ne done. If be shows dyno numbers then you can get on his ass if they aren't at what was expected.
    this thread is not supposed to be about Lords motor, this is a thread somebody else started asking a comparative question, that person deserves to not be biased by what could be false information. then again, this is the internet, so one will always have to wade through the shit to get any factual information. i hate to see new people pushed one way by what is presented to them as fact, which in this case it clearly isn't. freshen up on the beginning of this thread to see what i mean.

    /Rant...????
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    Quote Originally Posted by tekkitan
    Quote Originally Posted by Svenerachi
    why was ^ statgsr banned? or is that just his unique status thing?
    he was a naughty monkey
    naughty monkeys are not tolerated here

  22. #52
    t3h ub3r m3mber lord flashheart's Avatar
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    Quote Originally Posted by lord flashheart
    But to be honest I really tired of arguing, so your right I lied there is no 200+ HP n/a motor for $1500. End of discussion. If u want to see how the motor plays out, follow my 1995 build thread. The outback is still having problems so I haven't started the swap yet.
    ^that.

    And yeah your being a prick. I told you, ok, don't have a dyno so ill shut up till I have one.
    No, no ,no I'm not insulting you, I'm describing you!

  23. #53
    t3h ub3r m3mber StatGSR's Avatar
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    As much as i would like to see a dyno of your motor (and I'm sure we all will eventually), i am also just as interested in what was specifically put into it, which was something i hoped you could provide well before you could actually get it on a dyno.

    and yea, you don't have to tell me I'm being a pick, i admitted to that in my last post. i guess i deserve an arguing over the internet award....
    97 Legacy Brighton w/ EG33 swap.... still a work in progress
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reason
    Quote Originally Posted by tekkitan
    Quote Originally Posted by Svenerachi
    why was ^ statgsr banned? or is that just his unique status thing?
    he was a naughty monkey
    naughty monkeys are not tolerated here

  24. #54
    t3h ub3r m3mber lord flashheart's Avatar
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    Sorry. Your right that was uncalled for. My frustrated that I agreed to stop bragging about a motor i don't have proof of its.capability, and yet you continued to go off about it. You have made your point. I don't have that info because I've been busy with other things. I'll get it posted. However it will be in my build thread. As stated, this isn't about my motor, so if you want to hear about it you will need to go there.
    No, no ,no I'm not insulting you, I'm describing you!

  25. #55
    t3h ub3r m3mber StatGSR's Avatar
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    ^ looking forward to it!
    97 Legacy Brighton w/ EG33 swap.... still a work in progress
    05 Outback XT - DD
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    03 Silverado 2500HD Duramax - Tow Rig
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reason
    Quote Originally Posted by tekkitan
    Quote Originally Posted by Svenerachi
    why was ^ statgsr banned? or is that just his unique status thing?
    he was a naughty monkey
    naughty monkeys are not tolerated here

  26. #56
    t3h ub3r m3mber
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    Quote Originally Posted by Reason
    I would do a turbo build only if I had another car on the road that was reliable and ready to bring my ass to work every day.
    I'm buying another car specifically for that reason. The only way I would run a swapped Subaru as a daily driver is if you literally took everything from the donor car (ALL the powertrain parts, electronics, etc) and put it in your car. Even a stock WRX engine will probably break an N/A 5spd over time, which means probably being left stranded and downtime.

    For a Legacy, I wouldn't run a EJ20 personally. They have no power w/o boost, and require a LOT of boost to make good power. For a heavy Legacy, that would be far from ideal. I'd planned on going with a JDM STI engine (one with AVCS) but both the cost of importing one and the lack of power out of boost pushed me away. Now I've got an EJ257 sitting in the garage, waiting for a rebuild. The EJ255/257 has plenty of power even below 3k rpm (my friends STI feels faster even down to 1500rpm than my LGT). It should say something that the only turbocharged engines available in the 2nd Legacy were sequential twin turbo (to help compensate for turbo lag/lack of NA power)
    Kevin B.
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  27. #57
    t3h ub3r m3mber lord flashheart's Avatar
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    Yeah agreed. After driving my obxt for a while I drove a 02wrx and it made hardly any power till 4500, then you had ok power till 6k then you shift and put at the beginning of the boost. They just felt so laggy and slow, however I must make a couple points.
    1, the stock wrx will break a stock wrx 5 speed over time. Its all about how hard on the trans you are. That's why subaru made it so you can't dump the clutch as hard on the 02+ wrxs. The 01s you could do it as hard as you wanted.

    Point 2: the second gen legacy 5spd (TZ45 or whatever the code is) will hold up to stock ej257 HP. If you set it up right and don't slam gears and POP the clutch. When you dog the gear box, something gotta give and with AWD it will probably not be the tires and if you get a high performance clutch, the only thing left to break is trans or diff. I know multiple people who run a ej257 with a 2.2 5spd with no problems (about 15k miles now). They got a high pressure pressure plate with a soft clutch plate. You get the grip in the clutch you want but if you over do it the clutch gives first. Personally I think That's why the 05+ legacy 2.5gt clutches are known for slipping. Because the clutch giving loose it saves the gears box. I think subaru set it up that way.
    No, no ,no I'm not insulting you, I'm describing you!

  28. #58
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    to OP: sorry its late
    I put in a "used" cosworth cam in my ej252 after getting the stock heads replaced under warranty, new rings and borla heads, with a custom exhaust.... cam costed $300 with 35k on it which was installed at 110k and the exhaust was put on a month after I bought the car with 45k on it.. Basically I spent $750 total on my cam, heads, intake, labor... and had a friend do the job in 9 days... so I don't want to say look for cheap parts but if you know some good people and take your time you can make out like a bandit looking for upgrades...Piece together what you want done to your car, unless you have alot of $$. I've never dyno my car but once the cams and heads were replaced, I felt a significant difference in first to third gear.. also I'm just now hitting 175k on original motor and running strong as a fairly dailey driver, but I figure once the motor craps the bed I will do a swap for something turbo. But I do like giving my friends with ej20t a run to 50mph or so.

    but heres a link for a 00' swap in CO
    http://www.sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=4346
    01' LGT BLK+ a bunch of money wasted for a few horsies

    Black Betty!!

  29. #59
    Cone Eater
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    Re: ej20t or ej25???

    Lol, I've pretty much broken every "rule of thumb" that you shouldn't do to a swapped subaru.

    My simple advice is this: You want a turbo? Go big the first time or forget about it. There's nothing special about dropping a few grand only to end up with a *stock* turbocharged car.

    Got a budget that you have to really stick to? Stick with bolt-ons and cams on your car, make roughly 200bhp and be happy with your torque curve and linear power delivery.
    2005 Outback XT
    2003 Legacy L "Special" Edition...RIP CLICK HERE

    GO > Show. Every time.

    STI is the new medically accepted term for STD.

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