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Thread: EJ22D=153awhp. N/A. With room for more.

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    EJ22D=153awhp. N/A. With room for more.



    Through a 4eat.
    Last edited by Alucard; 11-12-2021 at 07:38 AM.

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    I like this a lot! But i’ll Disagree on one thing, phase-I gear isn’t all inferior. 96-98 was a pretty good time for the phase-I engine. The solid lifter EJ25D in Japan was making 175hp at the crank, stock, without AVCS... the AVCS DOHC EJ254 released in 98 made less power (167hp), in the persuit of economy (though the phase-II does have more potential if you use that AVCS for evil, not for good ). The solid lifter EJ20D (facelift) heads are also superb, they make much more torque than the prior hydraulic EJ20D from the preface lift TS-R. I’ve driven plenty of TS-R’s, and I can tell you now that the facelifts always haul ass compared to the prefacelifts, even though on paper they only made 155hp crank, rather than the pre facelift 150 hp crank. Meanwhile the EJ20K was hitting 280hp crank all day every day!

    So yeah, there are still some gems in the Phase-I world. I’m planning on using some port and polished USDM 25D heads in my next build, they were dyno’d at about 165whp on the last engine, with “street” ground cams. I’m looking to go with some slightly more aggressive cams for my build with those heads. Though that all represents quite a bit of coin. It’s crazy to see how good numbers you can get without any of that.

    For reference i’m Currently running a JDM hydraulic EJ25D, only mod is an EJ20K manifold and large throttle body, and a link ECU. Dyno’d 110hp atw (160hp crank factory for that engine). Still plenty fun, loads of low down torque (a bit more than stock thanks to the tune)

    Keep up the good work! We need more N/A love!

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    JDM hydro EJ25D?

    Install the following:
    MSD 8239 (if wasted spark).
    Grimmspeed lightweight pulley.
    Grimmspeed intake manifold spacers.
    NGK copper plugs gapped to .056.
    Headers (EL or UEL).
    2.25in catback.

    If all other parts are fresh enough, like filters and fluids, you should pick up a nice chunk of power.

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    SLi Supporter mike-tracy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard View Post
    JDM hydro EJ25D?
    The 96 USDM ej25d had unique heads with hydraulic lifters. It's ecu is tuned for premium, but a fella could use a 97 EJ25d ecu so it runs well on regular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggone.doglegs View Post
    The 96 USDM ej25d had unique heads with hydraulic lifters. It's ecu is tuned for premium, but a fella could use a 97 EJ25d ecu so it runs well on regular.
    I know. Haha, I was just giving him suggestions to get more power out of it. He could also try STi head gaskets for that extra compression bump. 87 is okay for power, but 89-91 seem to be what the Phase 1 ECU's genuinely like.

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    i dont think you can run the EJ257/5 head gasket on the EJ25D. The Thickness of the D is .055 and the EJ257 and EJ255 are like .035 ish if I recall. I believe the crown of the piston will hit the head on the Ej25D. But then after I typed that I realized he's running a EJ22 short block huh..

    Years ago i built a EJ251 for a guy's GC8 with Wisco 12:1 pistons and a bunch of other stuff. It was sort of fun to drive, but power to dollar ratio was not good compared to turbo setups. i think he made like 150-160WHP (which is pretty phenomenal at 8600 feet of elevation here in utah)
    No, no ,no I'm not insulting you, I'm describing you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard View Post
    I know. Haha, I was just giving him suggestions to get more power out of it. He could also try STi head gaskets for that extra compression bump. 87 is okay for power, but 89-91 seem to be what the Phase 1 ECU's genuinely like.
    Are you talking to Reuben? or?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggone.doglegs View Post
    Are you talking to Reuben? or?
    Addressing your earlier statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord flashheart View Post
    i dont think you can run the EJ257/5 head gasket on the EJ25D. The Thickness of the D is .055 and the EJ257 and EJ255 are like .035 ish if I recall. I believe the crown of the piston will hit the head on the Ej25D. But then after I typed that I realized he's running a EJ22 short block huh..

    Years ago i built a EJ251 for a guy's GC8 with Wisco 12:1 pistons and a bunch of other stuff. It was sort of fun to drive, but power to dollar ratio was not good compared to turbo setups. i think he made like 150-160WHP (which is pretty phenomenal at 8600 feet of elevation here in utah)
    You're right. Lol. It can't be done. The pistons come up way above the STi head gasket. He could try a Cometic 1mm head gasket, though. The pistons won't come up above that.

    As for your N/A build, that's actually good for that elevation. Down here, that would likely be a 200+awhp car. I'm trying to get 150-160awhp at 50ft above sea level. Lol. I only spent MAYBE almost $600 on my current EJ22D setup and almost a grand on this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard View Post
    Addressing your earlier statement.
    I meant when you wrote this, Who were you directing that towards:

    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard View Post
    JDM hydro EJ25D?

    Install the following:
    MSD 8239 (if wasted spark).
    Grimmspeed lightweight pulley.
    Grimmspeed intake manifold spacers.
    NGK copper plugs gapped to .056.
    Headers (EL or UEL).
    2.25in catback.

    If all other parts are fresh enough, like filters and fluids, you should pick up a nice chunk of power.

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    since we are on the subject, i also want to add a note about this gen of cylinder head. At the shop used to work at, we put these on the flow bench. from an airflow standpoint the castings of the 20K and 25D are virtually identical. the D heads were clearly designed for a 2.0 bore, the edge of the combustion chamber don't reach anywhere near the edge of the the 2.5 head gasket. because of this, the valve is sort of (for want of a better term) crowded by the casting, which interferes with low lift airflow. we used to "unshroud" the valves on the seat cutting machine. it drops the compression a bit because of the lost material, however on a turbo build that is negligible. here would be my ideal N/A build:

    EJ25D heads unshrouded
    EJ20K shimless bucket lifters and springs
    99 "eight-blot" EJ25D block
    12.5:1 forged pistons
    ported and polished heads
    re-ground camshaft
    stock STi rods

    or...

    EJ257 Shortblock
    EJ254 (the one with DOHC and AVCS on intake)
    EJ253 intake manifold
    12.5:1 forged pistons

    Also, I know this is a N/A thread, but the principle is the same.
    My EJ23K "Destroker/BigBore" build.
    So i put a EJ205 crank in 'pinned' ej251 block with ej257 rods which made the displacement 2.37 liters rather than the 2.5L the reason i did this was because the rate of expansion for the ignited fuel is constant. the speed of the piston is dictated by the stroke. (Meaning if you have a 2 inch stroke, the piston has to cover 4 inches of distance each revolution of the crank). if you change the stroke, you change the speed of the piston at a specific rpm, and thus you change the force the expanding gas can put on the piston. by shortening the stroke you essentially keep the same volumetric efficiency of the heads, while moving the power band later in the rpm range. this is because the ratio of speed of expanding gasses vs speed of the piston is more favorable at high rpm. I would be really interested to see a Hi-comp 2.37 liter destroker/bigbore build.
    if people are interested in this ill bust out my ol engine math book. it explains it better than I do.

    discuss.
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    EJ20K shimless buckets? You wish!

    I converted the ej20k sti heads I bought from you to ez30r shimless exhaust buckets. Felt literally no difference, but I don't have to worry about the shims falling apart at higher revs and possibly damaging something. Not worth the money unless you can get the appropriate buckets from a junkyard or a buddy.

    I don't personally think wanting to build up an NA is a waste of time, but I think for all the money you spend on an H4, you could have a less stressed H6 making the same or similar power and sounding arguably way cooler. I put an ez30d into my baja, and it really feels like an ej25d with way more balls and top end. Maybe someday I'll convert to ez30r, but the cost difference, especially with the standalone required to run it to it's potential, plus the fact it won't pass emissions any more (my baja is running the stock h6 ecu so it'll still pass), limits my ability to sell it some day.

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    Speaking of the ej25x heads with AVLS, apparently all you need to run those on a non-avls, phase 2 car, is an RPM switch or similar. Here's a link I found: https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2793484.
    Woulda been useful back in the day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggone.doglegs View Post
    I meant when you wrote this, Who were you directing that towards:
    Oh, to Reuben. Lol. My bad.

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    oh yea!! i forgot i sold you my old EJ20K heads! ah. good times.
    yea that's the purpose of the shimless buckets tho, not for added torque, simply allows you to spin the shit faster. although, I have the 25D shimbuckets and I spin it to 7k without problem.

    oh absolutely, N/A H6 is preferred to the EJ25D N/A.
    i prefer a EG33 bored to 99.5mm over the EZ30. The problem is it don't fit in my lego.

    also I have a set of those JDM only AVCS heads in my garage I'm saving for the next phase of my build.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord flashheart View Post
    since we are on the subject, i also want to add a note about this gen of cylinder head. At the shop used to work at, we put these on the flow bench. from an airflow standpoint the castings of the 20K and 25D are virtually identical. the D heads were clearly designed for a 2.0 bore, the edge of the combustion chamber don't reach anywhere near the edge of the the 2.5 head gasket. because of this, the valve is sort of (for want of a better term) crowded by the casting, which interferes with low lift airflow. we used to "unshroud" the valves on the seat cutting machine. it drops the compression a bit because of the lost material, however on a turbo build that is negligible.
    Many moons ago, I purchased a 2.0 from JDM Depot down in New Jersey. It was a blown JDM EJ20D, so I knew what I was getting to. Couldn't beat it for $280. It had destroyed timing, so bent valves were definitely a given.

    Upon sight, I confirmed this engine was physically similar to our 1997-1999. Exterior was exactly the same minus the EGR. It even had the same intake manifold and timing assembly. The more I dug in, the more I learned about it.

    The heads were cast the same as the late EJ25D, and I learned that this was the final revision of the EJ20D that was released in the final Legacy TS-R that would be released in the 2nd Generation Legacy line in Japan. This can be referred to as the late or final version EJ20D.

    The heads have 46.6cc clover chambers, same sized intake ports (smaller than the G/H/K/R/early 25D/early 20D), and no EGR port. The cams and springs were hotter, though. Cams have 8.3mm lift, intake and exhaust, while springs are significantly stiffer. Valves are the same as the late EJ25D.

    Bottom end is different, with 92mm pistons, 75mm stroke, 52mm rod journals, and a 10mm oil pump vs the EJ25D's 8mm/9mm oil pumps. The head gaskets were 92mm bore with 1.3mm head gaskets. Crowns had a small dish. 4cc would make sense, considering that this is a 9.5:1 engine.

    This engine was rated at 150hp@6500rpm/135ft-lbs@4800rpm and had a 7500rpm limit (manual) and 7000rpm limit (auto).
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    Last edited by Alucard; 11-13-2021 at 08:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord flashheart View Post
    So i put a EJ205 crank in 'pinned' ej251 block with ej257 rods which made the displacement 2.37 liters rather than the 2.5L the reason i did this was because the rate of expansion for the ignited fuel is constant. the speed of the piston is dictated by the stroke. (Meaning if you have a 2 inch stroke, the piston has to cover 4 inches of distance each revolution of the crank). if you change the stroke, you change the speed of the piston at a specific rpm, and thus you change the force the expanding gas can put on the piston. by shortening the stroke you essentially keep the same volumetric efficiency of the heads, while moving the power band later in the rpm range. this is because the ratio of speed of expanding gasses vs speed of the piston is more favorable at high rpm.
    For this exact reason, I urged a friend of mine to create a prototype EJ23T for himself. This combo consists of the following:

    EJ22T heads.
    EJ22T rods.
    EJ22T oil pump.
    EJ222 crank.
    EJ251 block and pistons.
    EJ257 head gaskets.
    End compression ratio is 8:1.

    With a turbo setup running a TD04HL-13T, this engine responds QUICKLY. His Legacy Turbo wagon moves with an urgency it didn't have before with the original EJ22T.

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    Edit: a 2.5 bottom end with 22t heads is still a ~2.5L engine. No wonder it's responsive. I built one of those back in the day, forged bottom end ej255, ej20k heads machined for the larger bore. That thing was brutally fast off the line. Top end was fine, but it was something special down low.



    I have an ej22t short block and stroker pistons, need to find a machine shop that machines those blocks to accept phase 2 cranks. I don't trust the ej25d cranks with boost (for long).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggone.doglegs View Post
    Edit: a 2.5 bottom end with 22t heads is still a ~2.5L engine. No wonder it's responsive. I built one of those back in the day, forged bottom end ej255, ej20k heads machined for the larger bore. That thing was brutally fast off the line. Top end was fine, but it was something special down low.
    His prototype has an EJ222 crank, so decreases displacement to 2.35L (codenamed "EJ23T because of the T heads). The next setup will be 205 heads on a 251 block using a 2.2 crank. It will be codenamed "EJ235." We've surmised that because of the 51cc chambers of the 205 heads, 2mm+ rods will be needed to get compression up, unlike the 22T heads that have 41cc chambers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doggone.doglegs View Post
    I have an ej22t short block and stroker pistons, need to find a machine shop that machines those blocks to accept phase 2 cranks. I don't trust the ej25d cranks with boost (for long).
    The friend with the EJ23T had this done yesterday. In the inner part of the 5th position where the main bearing sits on Phase 2's, take off 0.9017mm of material, divide between the inside and out. You'll end up with a double thrust block, but the crank may not rotate well or even rotate, having dual thrust bearings.
    Last edited by Alucard; 11-16-2021 at 11:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord flashheart View Post
    oh yea!! i forgot i sold you my old EJ20K heads! ah. good times.
    yea that's the purpose of the shimless buckets tho, not for added torque, simply allows you to spin the shit faster. although, I have the 25D shimbuckets and I spin it to 7k without problem.
    I want shimless buckets or welded shim-to-bucket so that I can add launch control at some point and not worry about flinging shims and tearing things apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord flashheart View Post
    N/A H6 is preferred to the EJ25D N/A.
    I like the challenges of making these N/A EJ's produce significantly higher power than what was previously believed for them. I also find it easier for Phase 1's to do it than N/A Phase 2's. Naturally aspirated Phase 2's usage of deep chambers is what I believe to contribute to the difficulty of producing power with them. Naturally aspirated Phase 1 heads have smaller chambers and using them on Phase 2 naturally aspirated blocks with thin head gaskets usually produces much more power.

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    Where was the machine work done, to make the ej22t accept a phase 2 crank? I've called all those shops mentioned online, nobody currently offers that service that I've talked to.

    Sorry I missed the part where you said the 75mm crank was used. I like the idea of destrokers, the first 9k rpm subaru I ever experienced was one of those. But the fuel consumption is stupid, even for a subaru
    Last edited by Doggone.doglegs; 11-14-2021 at 03:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggone.doglegs View Post
    Where was the machine work done, to make the ej22t accept a phase 2 crank? I've called all those shops mentioned online, nobody currently offers that service that I've talked to.
    His grandfather owns a machine shop that helps to repair old racing Porsches. I can get the information later on today as to the name and where exactly it is.

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    As was stated about, the stroke of the 2.2 and the 2.0 are the same thus EJ22 crank + EJ25 block = EJ23X
    as was my prediction, when I put my 2.3 Destroker in place of my EJ25K, the tune was rich down low where my previous peak torque was, and then leaned out as it approached redline, which tells me I gained more top-end.
    I have always wanted to build a 2.2 with a 2.5 crank.
    alas, if I blow my engine (Knock on wood) I think I will either put a Honda J35A, or go back to the ol EJ22D turbo set up. or maybe a 10:1 + boost w/ a street tune and a race gas tune.

    this is why subarus are such a blast. they are a tinkerer's car

    also, on the topic of fuel consumption, I wanted your guys thoughts.
    I have 245/40r18s on my car, so when the speedo says 60, I'm doing 72ish. this is roughly 20%. so am i right in thinking that i am traveling 20% further per tank of fuel, and thus i am getting 20% better mileage than i had originally thought? if that's the case, I'm getting 24ish to the gallon, before the RWD conversion.
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    also, another thing
    We were talking about the 25D with 257 gasket deal. Those D pistons have a dish, and its mostly the crown that pokes up. how crazy would you have to be if you put them on a lathe and took the crown off?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord flashheart View Post
    this is why subarus are such a blast. they are a tinkerer's car
    That's why I love them. They do wrong when bad is done to them and dramatically yield results when the right things are done.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord flashheart View Post
    I have 245/40r18s on my car, so when the speedo says 60, I'm doing 72ish. this is roughly 20%. so am i right in thinking that i am traveling 20% further per tank of fuel, and thus i am getting 20% better mileage than i had originally thought? if that's the case, I'm getting 24ish to the gallon, before the RWD conversion.
    What transmission are you running? If the wheels are lightweight/tires grip well, you're RWD, and your transmission has the right gearing for the power you're making, you're definitely getting more miles to the gallon.

    For example, my wheel/tire, and transmission setup were the following:

    215/55/R16.
    '04 WRX 3.90 5mt transmission.

    With the EJ22E, I would average 320mi to a tank, mixed driving.

    Now with the EJ22D, I get 450 a tank with the same kind of driving and almost 500mi a tank driving like I'm a cruise control unit.

  26. #26
    SLi Supporter mike-tracy's Avatar
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    It sounds like you have an Outback/Forester speedo gear, Lord

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord flashheart View Post
    We were talking about the 25D with 257 gasket deal. Those D pistons have a dish, and its mostly the crown that pokes up. how crazy would you have to be if you put them on a lathe and took the crown off?
    Crazy is how I do things. Crazy enough to agree to a friend lopping off the domes off his EG33 piston crowns so he can have poor-man Spec C reps with thick ringlands in 2.2 size for his impending EJ225 build, which will use EJ22T spec MLS head gaskets, ARP studs, and bolt-on's (I hope he picks up an FP Green, they're such nice turbos).

    That being said, if you wanted to lop off the crowns for a Phase 1 engine (pick any one), 0.3mm would be the exact amount of material to remove. After that, head gasket thickness and compression ratio choice are at your command to create whatever powerband you wish.

  28. #28
    t3h ub3r m3mber lord flashheart's Avatar
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    Yea, i know the speedo is wrong. but what I'm wondering, is if when i tested my fuel milage by filling the tank, driving, filling the tank, i came up with like 19 ish. if the speedo is off by 20 percent this means my fuel milage was off by 20 percent.. right? or am i missing something?

    Also, if you are getting 450 per tank, you drive like an old lady and deserve to be stripped of your drivers license.

    Also #2, i bought another legacy today.. FML. 2005 GT. got er for 1500. wont start, owner was dinking with it. he thinks he bent the valves.
    No, no ,no I'm not insulting you, I'm describing you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord flashheart View Post
    Also, if you are getting 450 per tank, you drive like an old lady and deserve to be stripped of your drivers license
    Oh, this is with mixed driving. Part grandma driving, part gunning it (literally ripping it at 6500rpm in the first 3 gears). I'll get closer to 500 if I don't do any of that. EJ22D's have improved efficiency over the EJ22E. That's the prime reason I love building them. I'm betting that I can still get 300mi a tank if I ripped it every week, no grandma driving.

  30. #30
    t3h ub3r m3mber lord flashheart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard View Post
    I'm betting that I can still get 300mi a tank if I ripped it every week
    I hate you.

    If I ride behind the semi trucks and drive my car like it has glass pistons, I might get 300.
    No, no ,no I'm not insulting you, I'm describing you!

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