Alignment Specs on Lowered Cars

[99gtlimited]

I am about to get my alignment done and i wanted to start a thread for all of you with lowered subies to share your ideas on how we should dial in our alignment.

What kind of numbers are you guys running for camber & toe? please include the type of car (year, model, chassis code) and what type of suspension you are running (stock w/ lowering springs, aftermarket struts and springs, coilovers, etc.) and what the main purpose of the car is (DD, DD and autox, full track, etc.)

THanks!

[Huffer]

99 GF Impreza (wagon) was
-0.5 front camber 0 toe
-1.0 rear camber 0 toe
both static measurements.

Stock struts + King Springs Low - about 1" lower than stock but uprated spring rate.

Purpose for car: daily driver, cruiser and weekend hillclimbs. Successful at all.

[99gtlimited]

why more camber in back then front? i've generally heard of people doing it the other way, not knocking you at all just curious as to why you had it set up this way,

so far i think i plan to go around -1.5 front and -1.0 rear static camber, with 0 toe front and back. i know this will wear the tires faster but i'll just rotate them often and change them out when need be.

[Huffer]

Rears tend to break loose first. So with a little more negative camber in the rear they stayed more planted, even in oversteer situations.

My alignment is why my supporting shop (Maclennan Performance) thinks I was able to keep up with the STi's in the corners. That and the fact that I was running the lightest possible wagon shell, with Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 tyres.

I actually had nearly perfect wear on these tyres over 2 years of use. In NZ you can run hi-po summers year round if you don't take the car off road or go skiing.

Either that, or I'm an awesome driver.

[99gtlimited]

Either that, or I'm an awesome driver.

most likely both.


Thanks for the input huffer!

Anyone else with a BD care to chime in?? it would give me a little better reference. [/i]

[decke48]

my old car
98 legacy rs-b (DD)
cusco zero2r lowered 2" front 1.7" rear
front
camber -0.7
toe 0
rear
camber -1.2
toe 0
static

[Grafton]

Rears tend to break loose first. So with a little more negative camber in the rear they stayed more planted, even in oversteer situations.

My alignment is why my supporting shop (Maclennan Performance) thinks I was able to keep up with the STi's in the corners. That and the fact that I was running the lightest possible wagon shell, with Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 tyres.

I actually had nearly perfect wear on these tyres over 2 years of use. In NZ you can run hi-po summers year round if you don't take the car off road or go skiing.

Either that, or I'm an awesome driver.

might have to copy your alignment, but not your weight theories mr "the speakers where to heavy"

[peugoby]

I can chime in as I've had a couple different set-ups.

BD Legacy
KYB GR-2's, Espelir Lowering springs, STi top hats, Eibach camber bolts

This is my favorite:
-1.5 Front camber
0 Total Toe
-1.0 Rear camber
0 Total Toe

The car rotates so well with this set up. It stays very planted and secure in cornering. No snap oversteer. Its very progressive and neutral. I love it, and I'd highly recommend the exact same settings.

Old setup (pre camber bolts)
-1.0 Front camber
0 Total Toe
-1.5 Rear camber
0 Total Toe

Understeered a lot more with this old setup, not as neutral, felt like I was driving a front wheel drive car. It made the car harder to rotate & not as fun to drive.

Its amazing how much a good alignment can help

I hope that helps. This thread helped me out a lot: http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=33431

[99gtlimited]

peugoboy- those are the exact same settings i had planned on running, glad to hear you thing they are so good, this is what i'll get dialed in to then i'll update this thread with my opinion as well. thanks for your input!

[99gtlimited]

I'm dialed in and I love the new feel. Didn't even need the camber bolts.

-1.4 front camber
0 toe
-1 rear
0 toe

[2.5GT]

Bumping this up for more alignment specs.

Year: 1998

Model: Legacy GT

Suspension: KYB struts/ H&R springs w/Paranoid Fabrication spacers in rear.

Setup: Daily driver, spirited driving.

Front

Caster:
L = 3.34*
R = 2.92*

Camber:
L = -1.29*
R = -1.23*

Toe:
L = 0*
R = 0*

Rear

Camber:
L = 1.45*
R = 1.56*

Toe:
L = 0*
R = 0.01*

[Grafton]

can we make this a sticky? i was looking for this thread a few days ago and couldn't find it

[jey]

Added to threads of note.

[jamal]

I'm happy with my alignment:

Front camber: -2.5 degrees
Rear camber: -1.1

toe: 0 all the round

suspension is out of an sti with slotted front struts and camber bolts in the rear. I'd say it lowers the car about 3/4 of an inch.

[kite_tmr]

-2.1 front camber

-1.5 rear camber

o toe f/r

BD with STI drivetrain. Just set this up so not sure yet on tire wear or performance...

[Huffer]

Bump for this. Want to see more data.

[jamal]

added RCE lowering springs and offset top mounts for more caster along with 225/45-17 hankook v12s. starting to notice just a touch of inner wear with the same alignment setting of -2.5 degrees or so up front. For canyons/auto-x/hard driving it's perfect though- grip and balance are incredible and I get scuffing right to the little triangles on the outer sidewalls. After about 10k miles on these tires I've rotated them twice and it's not a big issue.

[Huffer]

added RCE lowering springs and offset top mounts for more caster along with 225/45-17 hankook v12s. starting to notice just a touch of inner wear with the same alignment setting of -2.5 degrees or so up front. For canyons/auto-x/hard driving it's perfect though- grip and balance are incredible and I get scuffing right to the little triangles on the outer sidewalls. After about 10k miles on these tires I've rotated them twice and it's not a big issue.

What make/model of car?

[Kansei]

97 BD

KYB GR2
H&R Sport springs
OBX Trailing arms
MASSIVE Lateral links

F toe: 0
F camber: -1.0

R toe: 0
R camber: ....-2.1....

sadly i cant put any closer to 0 in the back... havent figured out if its just the laterals or if the car is too low. haha

[chromehorn]

98 brighton wagon

BC racing coilovers
Front and rear camber plates.
Ingalls camber bolts all around.
Whiteline roll centre kit

It's much pretty dumped. Daily driven at over 100kms a day. 10000kms on a new set of Falken 512s, did not see any camber wear.

front
camber -3.0
toe 0

rear
camber -4.0
toe 0

[Soul Shinobi]

I'm happy with my alignment:

Front camber: -2.5 degrees
Rear camber: -1.1

toe: 0 all the round

suspension is out of an sti with slotted front struts and camber bolts in the rear. I'd say it lowers the car about 3/4 of an inch.

Pretty damn close to what I have right now on my '98 wagon with '05 STI struts (slotted and shimmed)/springs and camber bolts all around, but I'm on junk tires and expect this setup to start eating tires a bit on my daily driver (even if I do hit a few corners daily).

What I PLAN to do with is:

-1.50 degrees front camber
-0.15 degrees front toe out
0.00 degrees rear camber
0.00 degrees rear toe

I'm still looking around for ideas, but currently I plan to cancel out the rear camber because that's good for predictable rotation and controlled slides, and add a touch of front toe out for sharp turn-in (as stated in this article here). Other reference I've used are the recommended alignment table at North Ursalia's site (geared toward first gen Imprezas which are VERY similar to first and second gen Legacy's), and the Making It Stick series at Modified.com, scroll down and go to part 2 for alignment suggestions.

Whiteline likes more negative rear camber than anyone else, and I think that's because they like smashing lap times more than having fun whipping the car around; only good for the track IMHO. Whiteline and Rallispec suggest a little rear toe out to help rotation, however I've tried it and don't like it, the car's a little less stable and not as predictable -- Mike Kojima fells similarly, he wrote the two articles above and has been a chassis engineer for Nissan and TRD as well as a consultant for race teams.

Hope you find these resources as helpful as I did! Add them to the OP is you like.

[Soul Shinobi]

Just got aligned with new snow tires. '98 wagon with '05 STI struts (slotted and shimmed)/springs and camber bolts all around. Oversteers EVERYWHERE. I had the front toed out for sharp turn in, but the car wallows a little. After some driving around I have to say it's anxious to get the tail out, ESPECIALLY on throttle lift-off or braking, it's kind of scary. Not sure how I feel about it.

Having a friend over soon to tell me what he thinks. He's driven FR's hard so he can tell me if it's FR-like or just dangerous.

EDIT: He didn't get a chance to drive it, but I drove it again the next day and feel better about it. Definitely controllable, but it'll take some getting used to. The toe-out requires that the steering wheel is turned a bit more to get the same result, which is good because it's harder to overdo it, but there's a delaying in the steering that bothers me and I'm not sure the cause.

[Bimmerman]

Bumping this with my current specs, and asking for input on more aggressive Autocross/Track specs (I know what works on E36 BMWs...but this is a subaru). I had it aligned to stock specs, aside from caster, for when I drove it from CO-CA, but now that I'm here and don't drive it much and don't care about tire wear...time for something hilariously fun.

Suspension: AST 4100 coilovers, 350/350 lb-in springs, Vorshlag high caster GC front camber plates, Vorshlag rear GD plates, IPD 20mm Rear sway, Whiteline 22m Front, Whiteline endlinks, just about stock ride height.

Front Caster: 5 degrees
Front Camber: -0.8 degrees (aka stock)
Front Toe: 0.10" (stock)

Rear Camber: -1.1 (can't get any more negative because GD geometry shocks)
Rear Toe: 0.05" total (stock)

Plans are to get Whiteline lower rear adjustable arms at minimum, ALK, and probably roll center adjustment kit too soon. That should allow for more rear camber and toe adjustment as well.

Any thoughts on how to better optimize the alignment for autox/track?

Thanks!

[Soul Shinobi]

DISCLAIMER: I'm no pro, I just read a ton of magazine and online articles, and experiment a lot with my own car.

Get way more front negative camber. ALK gives more dynamic front negative camber (negative camber gain during cornering) so it'll help a lot too. If you don't mind the NVH camber plates are more reliable (won't change under hard cornering) than additional camber bolts (which I'm running F&R) when you're running sticky tires. I just realized you have camber plates, if you're out of adjustment still you might need bolts too (though it might just be the alignment shop not knowing how to use plates). I'd really suggest getting rid of the rear camber, my tail comes around very controllably with 0 rear camber. Also, since you have a wagon make sure the rear height is correctly proportioned to the front, an excessively low rear makes the car way less stable (as my car was before adding saggy butt spacers to my '05 STI strut/spring setup).

If you want "hilariously fun" I'd suggest -3.0 to -4.0 degrees front camber, 0 degrees rear camber, 0 toe all around. See the alignment info in my previous posts, and what I've done in this post. This is close to a drift alignment, but also what a lot of people use for Subarus since they understeer bad out of the box. If you ever need more grip dial in a bit of negative rear camber (-1 to -2, depending on how bad you were oversteering).

ALSO: make sure you've got good chassis bracing. AT LEAST strut bars front and rear. Reason is that stiff suspension and swaybars twist the chassis a ton, and that chassis flex dulls the car's reaction a lot. Rear subframe lock kit makes the car more predictable with very little NVH trade off, I highly recommend. I have a feeling you will not be disappointed with the Whiteline ALK, and roll center adjustment kit.

----------------------------------------------------------

So, I got my car re-aligned because I wasn't happy with my last setup. Again I have a '98 wagon with '05 STI struts (slotted and shimmed)/springs and camber bolts all around. I previously had it aligned to:

-1.50 degrees front camber
-0.15 degrees front toe out
0.00 degrees rear camber
0.00 degrees rear toe

Despite the front camber I was still wearing the outsides of my front tires due to hard driving. The toe out didn't help turn-in as much as I thought, but god DAMN did it wander EVERYWHERE. I could move over half a lane and not notice, and steering was spongy. If I was running low profile tires on big wheels (instead of stock 185/70R14) the effect would likely be closer to what I desired or expected. Removing the rear camber was a good move, no abnormal tire wear after beating on it for half a month and the tail comes around nicely.

So after that, I took advantage of their 30 day guarantee and and had them do this:

-2.00 degrees front camber
0.00 degrees front toe out
0.00 degrees rear camber
0.00 degrees rear toe

I'm much happier with this. For the aggressive way I drive the front camber is good. I've decided I'm not going to mess around with toe anymore. I've done toe-out on the rear (scary!) in the past, now I've done it in the front (wanders everywhere), and neither are good for a street car. They can help with rotation but the wandering and instability aren't worth it on a DD. On the other hand, stock toe-in will give great stability and a good hard on-center feel to the steering, but the car simply will not want to rotate. So I'm settled now, I'm very happy with 0 toe front and rear, also this will give the best tire wear and rolling resistance for better tire life and fuel economy.

You can see below they had trouble nailing the front camber to spec, but I've given them a hard enough time already, I'm lucky I got them to go this far out of their way for a very custom alignment when they're just a tire shop not a tuner. Yes it's disappointing, and maybe I'd bitch more if this car wasn't a rust bucket that I'm just experimenting with.