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Thread: Swaybar FAQ

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    Swaybar FAQ

    Updated 2/13/18

    I've noticed a lot of swaybar related threads in the short time I've been around here, and I also have noticed a lot of misinformation and contradictory advice. So I thought I'd polish up my old legacycentral FAQ and post it over here.

    I'd like to start by talking about how our cars handle and what happens to our tires and suspension when we go around corners.

    From a flat out, on-road performance standpoint, a subaru starts out at somewhat of a disadvantage. Off the showroom, these cars are set up to understeer, and understeer some more. And then keep on understeering. Understeer is when, in a corner, the front tires break traction and begin to slide so you are turning the wheel but the car is going straight.

    One reason for this is the AWD. You have four wheels powering the car, and give the fronts the additional task of steering. That right off the bat means that while accelerating and turning, the front tires have more work to do and will lose traction first.

    Another problem is the weight distribution. On top of asking the front tires to both accelerate the vehicle and steer, you've gone and put more weight on them. Guess where that leads.

    Now we come to the alignment and suspension geometry. When the suspension moves, the alignment changes. This can be advantageous with proper suspension design. In our case, the suspension design was based more on packaging concerns, cost, and travel for rally. A tire creates the most grip when the entire tread is in contact with the road. So driving along in a straight line or braking we want the tire to be standing straight up with the tread flat on the ground for even tire wear and optimum braking traction. However, if we set the camber to 0, that ideal contact goes out the window as soon as the steering wheel is turned. When you go around a corner with the stock car, the car leans over, the tire leans over, and you end up doing most of the cornering with the outside edge of the tire and the sidewall. Obviously the sidewall is not supposed to be in contact with the road and that's not good for grip. Additionally, when the suspension compresses past a certain point the tire will actually start to lean outwards, which makes the problem even worse.

    On top of these inherent handling disadvantages, the cars are setup to push at the limit. This is because it's generally safer to go off the road straight than it is backwards/sideways, and inexperienced drivers tend to have trouble dealing with oversteer. There's also something called lift-throttle oversteer, and it's a common cause for crashed wrxes.

    Okay so what do I do about it, and what does this have to do with swaybars?

    One part of the solution is the alignment. Start with the tire leaned in (negative camber), and when the car rolls the tire ends up with more tread contact. This is especially important in the front, where we have more weight and more load in a corner. More negative camber in the front means more grip while cornering and less understeer. How much camber you should have depends on the use of the car and the tires among other things. A pure racetrack or auto-x only car will often have at least -3 degrees (stock is 0 to -1) along with stiff suspension and low profile tires that flex less. On a street car that mostly gets driven in a straight line and never sees high cornering loads this would not be a good thing and you would see uneven tire wear. You can still get away with quite a bit though and I daily drive with -2.5 degrees of front camber and the tires look pretty good. However, it is important to have the toe set to 0 and make sure all of your suspension and steering components are in good condition. The alignment as you drive down the road, brake, acclerate, and corner will change compared to what it is on the rack because of flex in bushings and suspension components. This gets worse as the bushings age.

    So we've established that alignment is important, and why it is important, so you can probably see where I'm going with this post about swaybars. If the car sees less body roll, we reduce how far the tire leans over and improve grip. That's where stiffer suspension and swaybars come in.

    What is a swaybar?

    A swaybar (aka anti-swaybar, anti-roll bar etc), is a bar that connects the left and right sides of the suspension. It twists to resist the suspension on one side of the car from being at a different height than the other side. Swaybars exist to add roll stiffness without adding ride stiffness so that a car will ride comfortably but still stay relatively flat in corners.

    What is roll stiffness?

    Roll stiffness is a car's resistance to body roll. Body roll is caused by cornering force. Cornering causes a lateral acceleration, and that force acts through the center of gravity about an imaginary point called a roll center (that's a hint at why roll center height is important). Both the springs and the swaybars resist this rolling force. A cool guy who goes by stretch actually went through all the work of measuring out the suspension geometry of an STi and found that even the stock swaybars contribute about twice as much resistance to roll as the springs.

    Why is roll stiffness important?

    A car will more roll stiffness will have less body roll and the suspension will load and react more quickly. That is good for two reasons:

    1) the tires stay flatter on the road and create more grip
    2) the car is more responsive and changes direction more quickly

    Great... What does that mean for me?

    Swaybars let you add roll stiffness efficiently and also adjust the front to rear handling balance of the car.

    A very important rule of suspension tuning is that adding roll stiffness to one end reduces the grip.

    The front and rear of the car each resist body roll. Given a constant cornering force, that resistance will be proportional to the roll stiffness on each end, so the end of the car with more roll stiffness will resist more roll.

    Doing more to resist roll means that more weight is transferred and that tire does more work.

    More weight transfer means less proportional grip.

    So a car that understeers probably has too much front weight transfer, and not enough in the rear. Adding rear roll stiffness (or taking it away from the front), will increase weight transfer in the rear, and reduce rear grip relative to the front, making for a more neutral handling car. Another way to put it is that we are reducing weigh transfer to the outside front, keeping it flatter, lowering the load, and increasing grip. So even just putting on a rear swaybar will reduce the amount of roll at the front of the car.

    So then I should buy a rear swaybar?

    Yes, probably. To reduce understeer, you need more rear roll stiffness. But to improve front grip, you also need less body roll. Can you see the conflict here?

    A big front swaybar drastically reduces roll, and keeps the tires in better contact with the road. That improves grip. It also increases the weight transfer on the front end. That reduces grip. The interesting thing is that our cars roll so much and gain so little camber under compression that a big front swaybar can, in some cases, reduce understeer but in my experience that only happens on an auto-x course for some reason.

    What it comes down to is that the car really doesn't have even close to enough roll stiffness to keep the tires in good contact with the road. If you want to make the car handle well, it's most important to add more overall roll stiffness. While swaybars are most effective at doing this, you still can't just go out and buy giant swaybars meant for racing because we run into issues with damping and suspension independence. However, a modest upgrade is always a good thing, and 22mm front and rear bars are a very safe bet for almost any Subaru (new cars with different rear geometry are their own case and an off-road oriented car will not want much swaybar).

    In some auto-x classes, only a front swaybar is allowed. If you're in this situation, get a massive front bar from addco or strano. Otherwise, it's ideal to add roll stiffness to both the front and rear ends of the car.

    How big is too big?

    Well, that depends on the intended use, the tires, and the rest of the suspension.

    In theory you want the bars to be as small as possible to maintain suspension independence and keep damping properties as consistent as possible. In reality, we are driving average sedans (and wagons), that are fairly tall and heavy and have less than ideal suspension designs. So, you need A LOT of swaybar to handle well on road. Honestly, more than is available for our cars. A good track setup for an impreza with sticky street tires generally involves about 500 lb/in springs and 27mm bars. With R-compounds more spring rate is required.

    So, if you're looking for great on-road performance, bigger swaybars are very important, and for a Legacy, there isn't a readily available swaybar that I would consider too big. I have the 22mm front and rear adjustable whiteline bars and could not be happier.


    One thing to keep in mind is that bigger swaybars add spring rate that the dampers have to deal with. So if you have 100k mile stock struts, I'd be wary of slapping on some big bars without at least throwing on a set of fresh KYBs.

    Okay, well, I think I have a good start. I need to expand on the last few parts a little and update the next post for the newer Legacies.
    Last edited by jamal; 02-13-2018 at 10:43 PM.

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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    Fitment:

    We've all heard the term that Subarus are like lego and you can interchange many parts between models and years. This mostly holds true for swaybars but there are some exceptions:

    Generation differences
    In the front, all Legacy swaybars are the same from 90-04, with the only difference being turbo vs. non turbo. There are also two different bushing and mount types, but bars are the same.
    The FRONT 05-09 swaybars are different and do not fit on other legacies (although they interchange with 08+ imprezas).
    Rear swaybars for an 00-04 Legacy must be specific for that model.
    Rear swaybars for an 05-09 Legacy must be specific for that model.
    Front swaybars for an 05-09 Legacy must be specific for turbo/non-turbo, and do interchange with the narrow body 08 imprezas/wrx
    Front swaybars for a '10+ must be for that model.
    Rear swaybars for a '10 Legacy are the same as 08+ imprezas and foresters.

    Turbo and non-turbo front bars are different
    Because of the crossmember and exhaust differences, turbo and non-turbo bars do not interchange.

    Impreza rear bars don't fit any Legacies
    Our Legacies have a little bump that sticks out of the spare tire well and interferes with Impreza rear swaybars. So while a Legacy bar will fit perfectly on an Impreza, things don't work the other way around. This also probably applies to Forester swaybars.

    The new wider-tracked WRX and STi front bars don't fit
    The 02-07 WRX sedan has a wider track and therefore different control arms and lateral links. This means that the front swaybar has to be wider. WRX Wagon and non-turbo front bars DO fit on any 90-04 Legacy, following that you are not trying to mix turbo and non-turbo bars. Sti rear swaybars are also wider.

    90-91 and 92-99 rear swaybars are different.
    The 90-91 uses a droplink setup that goes into a hole in the rear trailing arm. 92-94 uses the C-links that are found on most newer Subarus. Swaybars might be interchangeable. More details of the differences can be found here:
    http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=34005

    Some legacies do not have rear swaybars
    None of the 92-94 L models came with a rear swaybar. I don't think Brightons or some L models did either after 95. Adding one is a really good idea. To do so you need mounting brackets, lateral links, and endlinks. More details here:
    http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=26464


    Sizes

    Okay finally we're here. Regardless of the car you have, there are different swaybars out there. Here's a list of sizes that came on different models of Subarus that will fit 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen Legacies. All model years are North American, unless otherwise noted.
    These may not all be correct and it would be great if people could confirm the stock sizes


    Front, 1990-2004

    Turbo
    18mm 91-94 Legacy Turbo
    19mm (ST2041066010) 02-03 Japanese S401
    20mm (20410AC030) 02-07 Impreza WRX Wagon, 98-02 Japanese MT RSK and GTB
    20mm Whiteline BSF18
    21mm (20401AE010) 03-06 Baja Turbo, 98-02 Japanese AT RSK and GTB
    22mm Whiteline BSF15, BSF18X, BSF20Z (adjustable)
    24mm Whiteline BSF20X, BSF20XZ (adjustable)
    27mm Whiteline BSF20XXZ (adjustable)

    Non-turbo
    18mm (20410AA030) 90-94 Legacy, 93-01 Impreza Base and L Sedans
    19mm (20410AA050) 95-99 Legacy, 93-01 Impreza Wagon, Coupe, LS and RS Sedans, 98-02 Forester, 98-02 Japanese Non-turbo 2.0litre Legacy
    20mm (20410AC020) 96-99 Outback/SUS 00-02 Legacy, 00 Outback
    20mm Whiteline BSF14, BSF19
    21mm (20401AE03A) 03-04 Legacy, 01-04 Outback, 03-06 Baja (non-turbo)
    22mm Whiteline BSF19X, BSF19XZ (Adjustable)
    25mm (20401XA00A) Tribeca



    Rear

    90-92 Droplink type
    16mm Non Turbo Sedan
    17mm Non Turbo Wagon
    18mm Turbo Models
    18mm Whiteline BSR17 NOTE: BSR17 swaybars are discontinued. To upgrade, swap to c-endlinks
    20mm Whiteline BSR17X, BSR17XZ (Adjustable)

    92-94 C-link type, 95-99 2nd Gen
    15mm 95-99 All 2.2l models
    16mm 92-94 LS Sedan, 92-94 LSi Sedan, 95-99 LSi and GT
    17mm LS Wagon, LSi Wagon, Ti, GT, Mi
    18mm 92-95 Turbo Models, 95-99 Outback and SUS
    18mm Whiteline BSR19
    20mm Whiteline BSR19X, BSR19XZ (adjustable)
    22mm Whiteline BSR19XXZ
    note: BSR19 is hard to come by these days and usually must be special ordered from australia. Also, I think they only make the 22mm adjustable bar

    00-04 3rd Gen Type
    14mm 00-02 All Models
    16mm 03-04 All Models, 03-06 Non-Turbo Baja
    17mm 04-06 Baja Turbo
    20mm Whiteline BSR12XZ (adjustable)


    Bushings, mounts, and endlinks

    The bushings in the endlinks and on the swaybars are made of rubber and they flex. That reduces the effectiveness of the swaybar. Replacing them with urethane or spherical endlinks is generally a good idea and really improves responsiveness because the bushings and endlinks aren't flexing as much before the swaybar loads, and will cause the swaybar to load more quickly. The only thing you need to keep in mind is that urethane bushings need to be well greased or they will bind and pop and possible tear apart. Whiteline makes urethane bushings in most sizes. Spherical bearings will also wear and eventually start to make noise.

    The rear swaybar mounts have been known to break with larger swaybars. Whiteline, Perrin, and Cobb all have stronger mounting brackets available. The cheapest replacement option for a 1st or 2nd gen legacy, however, are the 04-07 Impreza mounts, which are reinforced. They use a new bushing, and that Whiteline part number is W0406-[mm].

    As far as endlinks go I'm partial to Kartboy and Whiteline but pretty much anything will work.
    Last edited by jamal; 02-13-2018 at 10:48 PM.

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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    Sway-bar Diameter Conversion Chart:
    http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bulletins/010barup.pdf

    Good for a rough estimation on strength %

    -Chuck

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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    So by saying you need to "increase overall roll stiffness" to get more grip and not just better balance you mean stiffer springs/shocks correct?
    HARRY
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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    springs and swaybars both increase roll stiffness. Swaybars are more effective at resisting roll than springs. So say you double the stiffness of your swaybar vs. doubling the stiffness of your springs. with the swaybars you will have less roll. The other thing is that lowering the car increases the leverage the body has over the suspension. So lowering a car while keeping all else the same will increase body roll given the same cornering force. So going with lower and stiffer springs may do nothing but make the car ride more harshly. That's why whiteline's new roll center kit is so popular among people who know a little about suspension geometry.

    Struts have no effect on roll stiffness. Well, if they have a high gas pressure they sort of will but that's not really a factor. What a strut does is control the motion of the wheel and the speed at which the car sets in a corner.

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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    wait what? Doesn't lowering decrees body roll because its like a pendulum and your moving the car closer to the ground where the roll starts? That y suv's and stuf have so much body roll? also cuz of soft springs but yea
    HARRY
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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    so how do you make more grip versus just more roll stiffness? wider tires the only answer?
    HARRY
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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    having more roll stiffness generally means more grip, because the tire contact patch stays flatter on the ground in a corner. Keeping the contact patch flat means the whole tread is working to make the car turn.

    wait isn't that what I said in the first post?

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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    "A very important rule of suspension tuning is that adding roll stiffness to one end reduces the grip."

    Reduces grip on the other end right???

    "What it comes down to is that the car really doesn't have even close to enough roll stiffness to keep the tires in good contact with the road. If you want to make the car handle well, it's most important to add more overall roll stiffness. Just a big rear swaybar takes away rear grip, which will improve the balance, but it doesn't help with the severe lack of grip that exists in the front. Just a big front bar will help with the grip lost by the front due to body roll, but you end up with a car with a very front-biased roll stiffness."

    These are confusing me. Isn't it known that are cars already have a pretty stiff front bar? So putting on a bigger rear bar balances handling and improves grip? Right?
    HARRY
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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    If I make the rear really stiff, it will transfer more weight in a corner because it does more to resist roll. Because there is more weight on that outside rear tire, it will lose traction earlier. This also has the effect of reducing the weight transfer on the front end, which gives the front of the car more grip.

    and yes, in simple terms, more rear bar will generally make the car more neutral and increase overall grip.

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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    ok i get it sorry
    HARRY
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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    Perhaps im not reading the chart right, but it doesn't seem to say which bars fit which specific legacies....I don't think one size fits all of them....but again its a late night at work and im damned tired.
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    for the first time ever....all of my cars run....WTF?!

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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    from 90-04 the only fitment difference in the front is turbo vs non-turbo, and some cars have a different bushing.
    05+ cars have a different front swaybar and things do not interchange.

    in the rear from 90-99, the 90-92 legacies are different as is mentioned.
    00-04 and 05+ are also different due to the multi-link suspension.

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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    Ahhh I see now, thanks for clearing that up! Like I said I was beyond tired after a shitty day at work, so yeah lol

    Awesome thread btw, 1 million thumbs up!
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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    Im about to upgrade my suspension on the BE.

    Im looking at Whiteline BSF-14X front and BSR12XZ rear. Along with Koni or Tein struts and springs.
    anything else i should add? i got a 30% off on all whiteline products out the year.
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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    Impreza rear bars don't fit any Legacies
    Our Legacies have a little bump that sticks out of the spare tire well and interferes with Impreza rear swaybars. So while a Legacy bar will fit perfectly on an Impreza, things don't work the other way around. This also probably applies to Forester swaybars.
    any idea how hard it is to deal with this spare tire bump to fit a wrx sway? I've heard both ways on this fitment.
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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    my 98' gt just got new KYB GR2's to go with the H&R sport springs and front whiteline tower bar, i want to upgrade the swaybars next before i start with the engine on this one. I'm thinking whiteline BSR19X 20mm rear and BSF19X 22mm front. this is for street driving and an occasional autoX or track day @ BIR, good idea?
    if I wanted to lower my car I'd have gotten a GT!
    outbacks go UP^

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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    either the 20mm or 22mm rear you don't really need a front its 22mm stock use the money for endlinks all around
    HARRY
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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT
    either the 20mm or 22mm rear you don't really need a front its 22mm stock use the money for endlinks all around
    i wanted the front one due to a fair amount of roll in corners ( I thought it was 20). I do want a stiffer rear but not drift car stiff. and as far as end links go what brand do you recommend? does SPT make any for the leg? or are they the same legacy or impreza.
    if I wanted to lower my car I'd have gotten a GT!
    outbacks go UP^

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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    I'm very happy with my whiteline 22mm adjusable bars and kartboy endlinks. I have the front bar set soft and the rear set full stiff.

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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    hey where can u get the addco sway bars?
    i have a 99 legacy gt 2.5

  22. #22
    SLi Supporter TGX4776's Avatar
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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    Are the whiteline end links model specific?
    2016 Mazda 6 GT

  23. #23
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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by TGX4776
    Are the whiteline end links model specific?
    Bump for endlink fitment. How many kinds are there for what cars? I know there aren't many differences, just want to be sure.
    -Nick
    1992 BC Legacy L Sedan AWD 5MT 272,000 - Wish you the best
    1998 BK Legacy L Wagon 5MT 234,000 miles - RIP (rebuilt heart with 42k lives on)
    2002 SF Forester S Wagon 5MT 215,000 miles - Current winter sleigh
    1986 FC Mazda RX-7 GXL Coupe 5MT 155,000 miles - Summer cruiser
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    2007 K7 Suzuki SV650S - New bike, will also see track days

  24. #24
    SLi Supporter TGX4776's Avatar
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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    I am not sure either....... We need an endlink section for this!

    I want to find out what kind i need for a BD
    2016 Mazda 6 GT

  25. #25
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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by prodriver1
    my 98' gt just got new KYB GR2's to go with the H&R sport springs and front whiteline tower bar, i want to upgrade the swaybars next before i start with the engine on this one. I'm thinking whiteline BSR19X 20mm rear and BSF19X 22mm front. this is for street driving and an occasional autoX or track day @ BIR, good idea?

    Nice. We have the same car and i'm going to be getting h&r springs soon. I think i'm gonna let the stock struts wear out before new ones. I guess i could put on a wagon rear sway bar or maybe get an adjustable one. I'd like to do strut bars too but they're so damn expensive. What else could i do cuz i'd love to fly around some corners without that stock body roll. I also have wide wheels that handle way better than my stockers

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    SLi Resident prodriver1's Avatar
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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by jantzen8895
    Quote Originally Posted by prodriver1
    my 98' gt just got new KYB GR2's to go with the H&R sport springs and front whiteline tower bar, i want to upgrade the swaybars next before i start with the engine on this one. I'm thinking whiteline BSR19X 20mm rear and BSF19X 22mm front. this is for street driving and an occasional autoX or track day @ BIR, good idea?

    Nice. We have the same car and i'm going to be getting h&r springs soon. I think i'm gonna let the stock struts wear out before new ones. I guess i could put on a wagon rear sway bar or maybe get an adjustable one. I'd like to do strut bars too but they're so damn expensive. What else could i do cuz i'd love to fly around some corners without that stock body roll. I also have wide wheels that handle way better than my stockers
    ya I have 215/50/zr16's on the stock snowflakes and I love it. the KYB's arent doing it for me, they feel like stock and ive had them for about 3500 miles and they are wearing out already. I want to get dampers for the wagon on my sedan due to the rear dampers being stronger than the sedan's. the HR's were only like $250 but swaybars alone would be much more effective than the springs. even with the springs and dampers the car still rolls more than my buddies stock mini cooper S. also I might be getting a new car soon and will be parting out the GT so if you want anything (theirs a good amount of aftermarket stuff) let me know and I'll pm you when the time comes.
    if I wanted to lower my car I'd have gotten a GT!
    outbacks go UP^

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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    even with the springs and dampers the car still rolls more than my buddies stock mini cooper S. also I might be getting a new car soon and will be parting out the GT so if you want anything (theirs a good amount of aftermarket stuff) let me know and I'll pm you when the time comes.

    You cant really compare your car's handling and body roll to a cooper s.... its a world of difference.
    2000 Legacy L Wagoon, 2004 WRX Wagoon, 2005 FXT

  28. #28
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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by 04Wagoon
    You cant really compare your car's handling and body roll to a cooper s.... its a world of difference.

    thats my point though... I want mini stiffness and I didnt get it with the parts I have.
    if I wanted to lower my car I'd have gotten a GT!
    outbacks go UP^

  29. #29
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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    Don't forget chassis bracing and stiffness, as well as tire sidewall height and bushing wear can play bigs roles too.
    -Nick
    1992 BC Legacy L Sedan AWD 5MT 272,000 - Wish you the best
    1998 BK Legacy L Wagon 5MT 234,000 miles - RIP (rebuilt heart with 42k lives on)
    2002 SF Forester S Wagon 5MT 215,000 miles - Current winter sleigh
    1986 FC Mazda RX-7 GXL Coupe 5MT 155,000 miles - Summer cruiser
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  30. #30
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    Re: Swaybar FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by Soul Shinobi
    Don't forget chassis bracing and stiffness, as well as tire sidewall height and bushing wear can play bigs roles too.
    thought about the STi "pink" braces but I dont know how well they fit on legacys if at all. and I'm getting a set of poly bushings (full set from energy suspension for around $350) the tyre are taken care of already 215/50/16s with AA traction and super hard sidewalls.
    if I wanted to lower my car I'd have gotten a GT!
    outbacks go UP^

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